New to wood burning, this forum, and about to buy and insert...hello and please help.

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dougcalaman

dougcalaman

New Member
Nov 9, 2010
22
Western New York
Greetings everyone. First, let me say this forum has already helped me a lot. Thanks. After cutting wood for others as a teen, here I am in my thirties and finally have my own house with a fireplace. We are going to install an insert thanks to a cracked flue tile and the desire to have the heat get into the house and not up the chimney. Enough babble. As of now, we have narrowed it down to three inserts... Jotul C 550 (450 if firebox is too small...I'll figure that out tonight.), Quadrafire Voyageur, and Fuego Flame. So far all three local businesses that sell and install each of these respectively are great, so I can't even bias my opinion on that. I would appreciate the help. Also, all three are quoting in the $4k range for the inserts + installation. Is this the going rate or is this inflated thanks to the 30% tax thing? Thanks in advance for the input. Oh, we have a ~2300 sq ft home living north of Buffalo, NY. This will hopefully be primary heat when home (we both work) and the gas monster will keep the home from freezing during the day. We have a "fireplace outlet" that sells other brands, but we haven't gotten there yet, so we do have other options too.
 
That is probably not too far out of line for a complete install. By the time you figure a couple grand for the stove. Another grand for the pipe and another grand for two dudes climbing around your roof and in your fireplace...

Ask about block off plates. Are they included with the install (upper AND lower). Ask about the liner. Insulated? Sometimes the attention to detail is WORTH a good install crew. Just one dudes opinion.

$4000 x 30% = $1200
$4000 - $1200 = $2800 for an installed insert - not bad.
 
I did my install myself so I can't really speculate on the installed cost. I can say that taking the time to install a block off plate was time and effort well spent the cost for the materials was minimal. The Jotul inserts are definitely nice stoves, we are on our third year with our 450 and love it. We are only really weekend burners when we are both home but the difference in heating costs and how the house feels is incredible.
 
Thanks for the info. The quadrafire folks are coming to do an estimate as I look into both units. It does seem like the jotul450/550 are fairly comparable. It may come down to style or things like viewing area and loading. If anyone has any great positives or negatives for either, please share. I am finding little or nothing out there about the flame...other than the posts on here where the guy was celebrating its replacement. Thank you for the input so far. Hopefully by Christmas we will be burning wood!
 
The prices you got seem in line with what I saw when I was shopping last year. I never heard of that fuego flame brand, but jotul and quadrafire make excellent products, I think you would be happy with either brand. As for the size of the stove, you have a pretty large home and if it is fairly open with lots of room for the heat to move then a large stove would not be out of place. As for the install someone mentioned a block off plate, which definitely will improve heat output into your house rather than up the into the chimney. I think insulating the liner is a good idea, for safety and performance.
And get started on your wood supply! Good luck
 
I'm currently looking at the C450 and costs are just over $4000 for a complete install...however I'm not sure if the install includes a blockoff plate.
 
daronk said:
I'm currently looking at the C450 and costs are just over $4000 for a complete install...however I'm not sure if the install includes a blockoff plate.
Click to expand...
Most shops will not install a steel block off plate unless you ask them, at least that was the case when I was shopping. Most will just stuff some insulation up in the damper area, which is better than nothing but a steel plate is ideal.
 
Hi,

I have two Jotul inserts, the 350 and the 550. I think I picked up the 550 for around $2850 and liner kit for $375 last year, but I am going off memory here so don't hold me to it.

I really like the style of the Jotul and the 550 is a monster. It eats every large split that the 350 won't and really throws off a lot more heat also.

Best of luck !
 
Great information. I have been digging a little deeper. The Jotul dealer/installer said that they did block it off and seal it, but it didn't quite sound like a block plate...they also said that the insulated flue liner isn't really ever necessary unless there is major damage to the flue. I just have a crack through one two foot section. We will see. The quadrafire vendor comes tonight...we will what they say. After the quotes are in, one more trip to compare visuals vs cost and features. I have to admit that I was surprised when the quadrafire salesman said that you aren't supposed to burn on a grate...I will do some more inquiring about that tonight I guess. Anyhow, I found a wood source....buddy with 24 acres with a fair amount of trees felled around 3-5 years ago. hopefully some of it is up off the ground. That should be a great start....and I don't have to buy it. Should be able to see if the new chainsaw works tonight...gettin' ready! Thanks all.
 
There is no time like the present for getting your wood supply set, even if you don't start burning until mid-winter, it will be nice to have a good supply all ready to go. Of course, this is assuming that you will be into some stuff that is dried out or seasoned already. If you cut any green, you can stack it for next year. Check into the "Wood Shed" room on the forum and post some pics of what you're cutting.

Another reason to insulate the liner would be if you have an exterior facing chimney. They can get cold and an insulated liner will help to stop any of the leftover flue gasses from cooling in the liner and depositing creosote.
 
I am of the opinion that insulating your liner is a good idea almost all the time, even with a flue/chimney that is in good condition, insulating will give a better draft and help keepthat flue hot so it really decreases creosote potential, also if you ever do have a chimney fire the insulation is an additional layer of protection to keep whatever is next to your chimney from igniting. And you do have a two foot crack, that crack is not going to get any smaller especially when you start heating and cooling it when you start burning. I know it can be a tough thing to spend several hundred more dollars insulating a liner when salesmen say you don't have to, but in a few years you won't miss that money, and safety and performance is always a wise investment.
 
Update for anyone that cares... narrowed down to the Jotul 450 and the Quad Voyageur...the 550 will not fit. This is the second guy that really seemed to poo poo the liner insulation citing air as a good insulator (I have a 12" flue). Being an engineer that deals with heat transfer, I get both arguments but I also get that I don't know the specifics of the application. Anyhow, this guy also does the insulation in place of the block plate claiming that the plates that he uses (they don't make their own) let more air through the seams than the insulation. I think I get it...

Anyhow, the Jotul 450 and Quad Voy are coming in with the 450 around $150 more installed. Time to go look and touch...and maybe look for something with a higher output that fits in the current hole. (The Jotul 550 just isn't gonna fit...so close. OK, enough rambling. Back to the research.
 
If air is a good insulator, then all the houses built in the 40s-50s should be really energy efficient! There's a reason insulation is put in walls, think about it. Not trying to start an argument with anyone, but something about that just doesn't ring a bell for me. I'm confused about the installer that "insulates instead of using a block-off plate". If s/he pours vermiculite down the chimney it seems to me some sort of block will be required to keep the insulation from going to the top of the insert. If s/he is referring to wrapping the pipe, that serves a different purpose from the block-off plate. As Krex1010 said - insulating the liner/pipe is almost always the best thing to do, for reasons he stated. If the block-off plate leaks air then s/he might want to consider using ceramic blanket on top of the block-off plate. Again - not trying to start a flaming argument - I'm just reading several excuses for not doing the job in the best possible manner, IMO. Of course, my opinion is worth what it cost.
 
Air is a good insulator when it is a trapped fix volumn and can't move (convect). So, if the top and bottom of the flue were (mostly) sealed and the airspace between the flue and the liner couldn't circulate much, it would in effect insulate...from that aspect I get his point. BUT I don't know if that is the case and I am afraid of just what you are saying...an excuse to do a bad job. The concern was that both installers said the same thing. Anyhow, I will keep looking into it...and I agree on the block plate thing too... why couldnt you put a plate in and put ceramic insulation on top. I got the impression that he was planning on packing the area where the block plate would go with some type of insulation. I am not sure. I hope I am not making a mess out of this. If had a few more tools, and a bit more knowledge, and more time for the tax credit, I would do it myself. retreadsme amd krex...thanks.
 
You are correct about trapped, fixed vol of air under certain conditions. We could get into a lengthy physics discussion about conduction of heat by molecular diffusion and conduction of heat by advection, but it is fruitless without all the parameters, ie: chimney materials vs inside/outside wall, north side vs south side, temp variances, and-on-and-on; thus the desire not to start a flame. These days, I'm living a much less complicated life. If I do an insert install, I custom fit a block-off plate and put ceramic blanket on top of it. Some folks have different opinions about the value added, but for $5.00; why not - is how I look at it.
You are asking the right questions and thinking about what various installers say. If you are anywhere near West Monroe, ya might want to speak with Frank Sappo at Fireside Chatts. He is a great guy. (I have no financial interest)
 
Alot of people don't insulate their liners and they never have problems. A family friend is a certified chimney guy, when I was shopping I had him clean and inspect my chimney before I bought my stove. He said my chimney looked good but he still really encouraged me to insulate the liner when i got my stove. Just about all the salesmen at the stove shops i went to said it wasn't necessary, but remember the guys at shops aren't up on ladders looking into dirty chimneys and liners everyday. I decided to take the advice of the guy who cleans and works on chimneys and liners on working stoves and sees firsthand what goes on inside a chimney when it is no longer new and shiny.
 
Oh yes and air is a pretty good insulator but it's not nearly as good as poured vermiculite or whatever they make those insulating wraps out of. And if by chance you do ever have a chimney fire raging at 2000 degrees inside your liner what wouldnyou rather have between the liner and your home? Liner insulation? Or air?
 
Just politely ask them to bid the job with insulated liner and block off plate. Do it right, once, and you should never have to review the process again.
 
So, the chips are down. The Jotul guy is coming tomorrow to check the fit. On a second measurement, it looks like the 550 will fit. If it does, we are going to go with the 550, if not, the quad voyageur. (I want the extra fire box and BTUs per hour. The people that are selling the Jotul will wrap the liner for like $400 and the block plate for nothing. I am still a little tentative because the other two people came out to estimate and check things out, I all but had to commit to buying before these guys would come out. There is just a bit of unknown here. Anyhow, if anyone in the Buffalo area can chime in on American Eagle Fireplace, please do. The guys at Black Hat Chimney in West Seneca were great. We loved them, they just don't have the stove that fits the size we need (or so it seems). Anyhow, thanks for everything. I will post pics when its in.
 
Hope everything goes smooth. The 550 is a sweet stove.
 
The Jotul guy measured this morning. Looks like were good to go. The Quad guy was gonna run the blower motor down through the ash drop, this guy didn't want to do it citing temperature etc. The other guy didn't bat an eyelash. Hopefully the actual install guy will have more to say about this. Any input from you Jotul owners? Also, the hearth is too low, so now I need a heat shield. Anyone have one installed and can share a pic?

Thanks again.
 
550 is going in now. This low mantel vs code thing is going to be a pain. They forgot the heat shield...not that I want to use it, but it beats the alternatice. Any input advice etc? I will get pics posted as soon as things are settled.
 
Good luck withthe 550. Mine has been in for three years now and heats the entire upstairs of a ranch home, sq. ft. about 1800-2000. I have used it to heat the house when we were out of power for 3 days during an ice storm. I use it 24/7 and would buy another one tomorrow. It really throws the heat. Yiu will be happy. :)
 
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