Days away from purchasing a Jotul C450...

daronk · Nov 16, 2010

First post in this forum and I want to start off by saying that there is a wealth of information here and I appreciate any and all feedback.

Previously I owned a Jotul F400 Castine (double door) that was standing in my fireplace with the short leg kit for 9 years.
I've recently moved and sad to say the F400 stayed with the house. I'm now looking at a C450 double door with heat shield (seems like the F400 in an insert form). I chose an insert mainly due to clearance constraints as I don't intend to rebuild the fireplace. (wood trim/mantel)

Chimney is between the colonial "box" and the breezeway (family room) facing the family room. so the exposed brick chimney is 18' on the outside...the rest is inside.

I'm looking at doing a full length liner for safety and draft improvement.

Questions -
1. Does the stove perform better with a block off plate? Figuring that it retains more heat around the unit to blow back into the room.

2. I've read comments where the blower will reduce the stove temp? If so, does this make it harder to maintain stove temps? (Figuring that this can't be an issue or else no insert would have one.)

3. Pricing-wise I was told that the surround was optional....true? The brochure says "standard"...guessing dealers all price the way they want?

4. $1650 absurd for total install cost? (6", 30')

5. Do you get creosote falling from the pipe into the stove only to ignite? (My F400 had a partial liner with a tee and I always had stuff falling into the cleanout...not tons but still had some.)

6. How do you clean the liner....remove the baffle and let the stuff fall into the stove or do you remove the entire unit for every cleaning?

7. primary air vent is in the rear of the unit...so if the insert is "inserted" into the fireplace and the surround plate is not vented (or is it?) then unless I do an OAK how does it breathe? I first thought that the front grill fed both the blower and the combustion air but fig 18 in the manual doesn't show that.

...and finally...
8. Anyone in the Southern NH, North Shore/Merrimack Valley MA area want to show me their seasoned C450? PM me if you are interested....

Thanks and I'm sure I'll think of another question right after I click "submit post".

wrblplayas13 · Nov 16, 2010

I've heard the same thing about the blower reducing the stove temp, but i have not ran into that. I have checked many times and the temperature does not dip when it goes on.
The surround is standard and it does come with it, but yes, technically its optional depending on if your fireplace needs it. Mine did, plus it just looks nicer.
$1650 is not absurd. I paid $2800 for the C450, and just under $1200 for the installation with 6", 25' liner, so the 30' liner is a few hundred extra.

Someone with much more experience will have to answer the other questions. I'm very new to this!

Purchased from Yankee Fireplace in Middleton, MA, i believe they have another shop in New Hampshire

daronk · Nov 16, 2010

thanks...I've been to Yankee. Seems that everyone just quotes retail because they know you are getting 30% back. Curious...did they install a block off plate? Did you do an OAK?
Thanks again

wrblplayas13 · Nov 16, 2010

Yeah getting a grand back is great though. Can't wait. Plus had a couple windows installed so i'll be recouping the full $1500

Unfortunately i'm not sure if they installed a block plate, i'm going to guess no, but i'm not too familiar with the ins and outs of these things.
Its a learning process as this is my first insert/stove.

Rudyjr · Nov 16, 2010

Well we are into our third year with the C450 and love it. 1: I am a firm believer in installing a block off plate. Most of the complaints about poor performance I have seen on all inserts have usually been with installations that did not include this. I installed one with mine and my stove performs perfectly. I think quite a few installers eliminate this step because it takes time to do it. I felt it was worth the extra time since I was doing it anyway. 2: As far as I can tell I see no difference in stove performance with the blower off, on high or on low other than heat output. By this I mean if it is only mildly cold out there is no need to run the fan on high or it will run you out of the room it is in. The fan does a very good job of moving heat around the house in my opinion. 3: This is the reason that even though I live in Central Ohio I went all the way to Toledo to buy my stove. Every dealer in Columbus gave me different information on what was optional with my stove. One quoted me a price "complete" and then called me back after getting my deposit to ask me if I wanted a surround. I e-mailed dealers outside of my area and a dealer in Toledo told me that their price always included the blower and cast surround since it came with the stove from the factory. They were great to deal with and had the best price so it was worth the trip. 4: This I have no clue about. I installed my own. My total cost for the install with 25 feet of 6inch and all of the associated parts for the installation including the block off plate was less than $ 500.00. and far less than a days work. 5: There is a provsion for an OAK but my install is in a basement family room so it was not practical for my to even attempt to use it. The unit works just fine without it hooked up. No insert that I have seen is actually totally sealed up in the fireplace there is plenty of places for it to draw room air from around the insde and outside of the surround etc..., 6: I clean my own chimney every year. I clean from the top down and I do not remove the baffle. The first time I cleaned up what little creosote there was on top of the baffle after cleaning with my central vac with a small hose attached to it (when cold). This year I put a couple of layers of tin foil on top of the baffle and slid it out when done. This made cleaning a very quick and easy project.I know that these are not in order but I tried to answer most of your questions that I could feel free to p.m. me if you have any other questions. Jim

daronk · Nov 17, 2010

Jim - thank you for your time and your response. You have reassured my choice in purchasing another Jotul product.

amikolajczyk · Nov 17, 2010

Welcome to the forum, from a newbie myself. I'm just starting my 2nd year with the C450 and I learned a lot during the first year. It's amazing how you go from the notion of just stuffing a lot of wood into the box and letting it burn to being able to really burn it correctly for efficiency and maximum heat output. I like the 450, but I do wish I had a bigger fire box. It would be nice to have a fire burning when I wake up in the morning, but as it is, there are easily enough coals left to rekindle fairly rapidly. Like others have stated, I have not noticed a drop in stove top temps when the blower is on. I'm sure there's some heat leaving the system, as this is the whole point, but not enough to drop temps significantly. Blower on low is acceptable for watching TV in the same room, but blower on high is loud enough to be distracting and will quickly drive you out of the room with heat output.

As for cleaning, both years I have removed the baffle and let the soot fall down into the burn box. I have another thread here about removal of the baffle, and it's a serious PitA, but I feel better about it and it's only once a year.

I can tell you I'm still learning the nuances of this stove. I can always get reliable heat out of it and can keep my 1700 sq foot home fairly well heated(by my standards) while keeping the gas furnace to a minimum(thermostats at 55F). Sometimes, and I wish I could lean the secret of this, the stove goes into a really impressive mode where temps hit 800F+ with secondaries putting out a spectacular light show, but I can count on one hand the times this has happened and so far I just can't seem to dial in that "perfect storm" nearly as often as I'd like to. I presume that anyone that could, might turn this diminutive stove into a true dragon of a stove.

Overall, I love this stove, it's my first one so I don't have much of a basis for comparison. I didn't install it, so I don't know much about the particulars, I just know it throws heat into my basement with a vengeance and my only problem is moving that heat around the house. Viewing and glass are great so long as your gaskets are solid. Last year, my glass blackened up overnight all the time, this year I replaced all gaskets and have burned for 3 days without a smudge.

Cons, are the small burn box means reduced burn times before reloading. Also, and this might not be something particular to this model, I just don't have any basis for comparison, but it likes to spew some ashes when its opened, even when pressure equalized by opening the air supply first. It's not obnoxious, but if you're burning daily, you'll get ash all over the ashlip for sure.

If you can't fit something with a bigger firebox, this is a great stove, IMO.

Let us know how it goes,
AJM

AK13 · Nov 17, 2010

I paid $1300 for installation with a 25' SS liner. So $1650 probably is reasonable for your 30' chimney.

You might want to keep an eye out or call around for sales on the Jotuls. They were 10% off when I purchased and then I noticed they had another 10% sale the next month as well.

I think that the surround is standard, but they have an extended surround that is optional. One thing I liked about the Jotuls was that the price was inclusive and didn't include "optional" prices to add a blower when the blower is basically required as standard.

Rudyjr · Nov 17, 2010

Dave, You are welcome. Nice talking with you last night on the phone about stoves. Feel free to give me a call anytime. Please post some pictures and let everyone here know how your installation goes. Good luck, Jim

op_man1 · Nov 17, 2010

daronk said:
First post in this forum and I want to start off by saying that there is a wealth of information here and I appreciate any and all feedback.

Previously I owned a Jotul F400 Castine (double door) that was standing in my fireplace with the short leg kit for 9 years.
I've recently moved and sad to say the F400 stayed with the house. I'm now looking at a C450 double door with heat shield (seems like the F400 in an insert form). I chose an insert mainly due to clearance constraints as I don't intend to rebuild the fireplace. (wood trim/mantel)

Chimney is between the colonial "box" and the breezeway (family room) facing the family room. so the exposed brick chimney is 18' on the outside...the rest is inside.

I'm looking at doing a full length liner for safety and draft improvement.

Questions -
1. Does the stove perform better with a block off plate? Figuring that it retains more heat around the unit to blow back into the room. mine doesn't have a block off plate and does great (although there is insulation in the area where a block off plate would be) feedback on block off plates is usually positive.

2. I've read comments where the blower will reduce the stove temp? If so, does this make it harder to maintain stove temps? (Figuring that this can't be an issue or else no insert would have one.) This has not been an issue for me - yes, the box gets slightly cooler but you're still in the good operating range. One advantage of this is that you can help cool the insert if you get close to overfiring.

I really like this unit - don't regret getting it at all. I would recommend the blue/black enamel. Otherwise, you might have to repaint it every so often.

3. Pricing-wise I was told that the surround was optional....true? The brochure says "standard"...guessing dealers all price the way they want? Can't help you there...

4. $1650 absurd for total install cost? (6", 30') Again, can't help you there...

5. Do you get creosote falling from the pipe into the stove only to ignite? (My F400 had a partial liner with a tee and I always had stuff falling into the cleanout...not tons but still had some.) Never happened to me...

6. How do you clean the liner....remove the baffle and let the stuff fall into the stove or do you remove the entire unit for every cleaning? I removed the baffle and cleaned from the roof. Someone here has posted that you can clean it without removing the baffle and just vacume above the baffle. I might try that next year.

7. primary air vent is in the rear of the unit...so if the insert is "inserted" into the fireplace and the surround plate is not vented (or is it?) then unless I do an OAK how does it breathe? I first thought that the front grill fed both the blower and the combustion air but fig 18 in the manual doesn't show that. The unit is not airtight in the fireplace it is inserted into... It just uses the air that is back there, I dont' think it needs very much. Only disadvantage here is that if the unit overfires you can't block the primary air...

...and finally...
8. Anyone in the Southern NH, North Shore/Merrimack Valley MA area want to show me their seasoned C450? PM me if you are interested....

Thanks and I'm sure I'll think of another question right after I click "submit post".

FGZ · Nov 19, 2010

I've just recently found this site and have been poking around for info, but had to make this the day I register here when I saw this thread. I just got the exact same insert and am in the same area.

Unfortunately I'm just as new at it as you are so I can't help a lot, except to say I know a guy who may be able to cut down that install cost for you. He's based in NH, and since I already had all materials here (I picked up the stove and liner kit from Yankee myself) his price was about a third of others'. Granted, he didn't have the extra elbow with him that I needed to make the final connection and I'm still hunting that down, but I still could've doubled what I paid him in order for him to finish the job and still ended up way less than what you're finding. Shoot me a PM if you'd like his contact info, he's a nice guy and I would recommend his services with a few exceptions.

1 - I don't have a block off plate yet, will probably make one in the future. I do have non-combustible insulation stuffed up around the liner about 6' up to stop any airflow into the chimney, but hearing others' feedback on good block off plate stuff, I'll make one.

6 - for cleaning, I was told by the sweep that had to do a pre-clean of my chimney that they usually remove the baffle to clean up from there. Another sweep told me they usually have to remove the whole insert, so those sweeps were more expensive. I wasn't talking specific models with either sweep though, so it's good to see others have just cleaned down on to or removed the baffle.

I hope to be breaking mine in within the next few weeks...just gotta craft a tricky/low-clearance elbow to connect stove to flex liner. I'm gonna be searching here for more info about how to monitor temps, how hot to go for no creosote, how hot is too hot, how best to load, etc.

Here's a crappy cell phone pic of my C450 installed

daronk · Nov 19, 2010

thanks again for everyone's response...

amikolajczyk - if you think that the C450 has a small burn box has you seen the C350...now that's small.

op_man1 - good info.

FGZ - where in the North Shore are you? PM me if you don't want to post...also what's the installer's info?

I'm thinking about installing it myself now...been wet out so I'm waiting to do a "test" walk on the roof to see how safe it is to install. Maybe a harness/rope setup...heck I could even rent a Nifty Lift if I didn't feel comfortable with the pitch. If you think about it the install is rather simple so I'd hate to spend $1000 extra for it. One of my issues that I just discovered is that the damper plate frame doesn't allow for a 6" pipe down the center.

Did anyone remove the entire damper assembly to install?

spencer186 · Nov 19, 2010

Daronk- I did the install myself with no experience. fro less than $500. I found a liner and install kit for I think about $250 if I remember right on ebay with free shipping. I put in a C550 in less than a day including a blockoff plate I made and 25' ss liner. My damper opening was too small for the 6" pipe too so I just took a sawsall to it. Wasn't that big of a deal at all. Must admit I was a teeny bit nervous on the extention ladder shoving that 6" 25' long pipe down but to save the $$$ well worth it. If you're concerned with the smaller fire box, the 550 is a great alternative- if it will fit.

- As far as a block off plate goes I reccommend it. Many people have posted that they don't have a block off plate and can touch the surround when the stove is burning. With my stove going the surround is way too hot to touch so I credit the block off plate. I don't plan on pulling the insert to clean it, just the baffles. Shouldn't have to with a full liner. But I believe the baffles are a lot easier on the C550. Whatever you decide- Good luck!

Also- I don't know how far you're willing to go, but I drove from Long Island to Conn. to get my stove at Preston Trading Post. Saved almost $400 compared to local deaers on the island so I figure it was worth the trip. Best price I could find and I called all over the tri-state area.

gibson · Nov 19, 2010

++ on easy removing baffles on 550 and awesomeness of Preston Trading Post. Taking my father in law there to upgrade his stove next week. Great knowledgeable staff, helpful people, great prices.

FGZ · Nov 19, 2010

daronk said:
thanks again for everyone's response...

amikolajczyk - if you think that the C450 has a small burn box has you seen the C350...now that's small.

op_man1 - good info.

FGZ - where in the North Shore are you? PM me if you don't want to post...also what's the installer's info?

I'm thinking about installing it myself now...been wet out so I'm waiting to do a "test" walk on the roof to see how safe it is to install. Maybe a harness/rope setup...heck I could even rent a Nifty Lift if I didn't feel comfortable with the pitch. If you think about it the install is rather simple so I'd hate to spend $1000 extra for it. One of my issues that I just discovered is that the damper plate frame doesn't allow for a 6" pipe down the center.

Did anyone remove the entire damper assembly to install?

I'm near Beverly. I'll PM you the install guy's info. He seems like the kind of guy who will come help with the main parts of the install for like $2-300.

And with my damper, we ovalized the liner for it to fit through. In retrospect, I should have just taken out the damper (it's still in the way and causing problems) and made a block-off plate instead.

daronk · Nov 19, 2010

spencer186 - I'd love to get a 550 but the firebox is too small...I'm at 22" wide at the back which is 20" in from the front face.

fgz - Thanks...I would have just removed the plate...I'm a big fan of being able to return stuff to its stock setup. What kind of problems are you experiencing? Did you crush the liner for it to fit?

FGZ · Nov 19, 2010

daronk said:
spencer186 - I'd love to get a 550 but the firebox is too small...I'm at 22" wide at the back which is 20" in from the front face.

fgz - Thanks...I would have just removed the plate...I'm a big fan of being able to return stuff to its stock setup. What kind of problems are you experiencing? Did you crush the liner for it to fit?

yeah I had to crush it some to fit, doesn't look too bad to me. Clearance issues are here: https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/63400/

daronk · Nov 19, 2010

oh my bad...I thought you modified the damper plate.

AK13 · Nov 19, 2010

Nice install. That looks great.

christie · Jan 30, 2011

I've had my C450 for two years. It was professionally installed.
Does anyone else find that the noise is distracting? Or is there a problem with the way that it was installed or something?
I've been around other inserts that are way quieter.

FGZ · Jan 30, 2011

I forgot to update this thread, that I did end up removing the damper and a few bricks to get the clearance I needed. But that's another thread around here somewhere...

yodella said:
I've had my C450 for two years. It was professionally installed.
Does anyone else find that the noise is distracting? Or is there a problem with the way that it was installed or something?
I've been around other inserts that are way quieter.

My blower fan usually keeps quiet on low, but almost always rattles excessively on high. It looks like there are some loose sheet metal pieces right under the ash lip, so I will be going after those when I get time. Getting those to stop rattling will let me put the switch on high full time and control the blower speed with a rheostat.

Rudyjr · Jan 30, 2011

FGZ said:
I forgot to update this thread, that I did end up removing the damper and a few bricks to get the clearance I needed. But that's another thread around here somewhere...

yodella said:

I've had my C450 for two years. It was professionally installed.
Does anyone else find that the noise is distracting? Or is there a problem with the way that it was installed or something?
I've been around other inserts that are way quieter.

Click to expand...

My blower fan usually keeps quiet on low, but almost always rattles excessively on high. It looks like there are some loose sheet metal pieces right under the ash lip, so I will be going after those when I get time. Getting those to stop rattling will let me put the switch on high full time and control the blower speed with a rheostat.

It is more than likely the housing that the snap stat is mounted to rattleing against the stove. If you remove the ashlip and the motor housing you will see a little box that houses it (no bolts both parts lift off). It holds the stat out and under the right side of the stove. You can bend it upward a little and it will make more positive contact with the stove. You should also look everthing over and check for tightness on the mounts for the motor. I would also clean and oil the 2 oiling ports on each end of the motor while you are in there. This worked for the noise that mine made and it only takes about ten minutes to do.

FGZ · Jan 31, 2011

Rudyjr said:
FGZ said:

I forgot to update this thread, that I did end up removing the damper and a few bricks to get the clearance I needed. But that's another thread around here somewhere...

yodella said:

I've had my C450 for two years. It was professionally installed.
Does anyone else find that the noise is distracting? Or is there a problem with the way that it was installed or something?
I've been around other inserts that are way quieter.

Click to expand...

My blower fan usually keeps quiet on low, but almost always rattles excessively on high. It looks like there are some loose sheet metal pieces right under the ash lip, so I will be going after those when I get time. Getting those to stop rattling will let me put the switch on high full time and control the blower speed with a rheostat.

Click to expand...

It is more than likely the housing that the snap stat is mounted to rattleing against the stove. If you remove the ashlip and the motor housing you will see a little box that houses it (no bolts both parts lift off). It holds the stat out and under the right side of the stove. You can bend it upward a little and it will make more positive contact with the stove. You should also look everthing over and check for tightness on the mounts for the motor. I would also clean and oil the 2 oiling ports on each end of the motor while you are in there. This worked for the noise that mine made and it only takes about ten minutes to do.

Thanks for the tips! Just some standard 3-in-1 light household oil or is there something special needed?

Rudyjr · Jan 31, 2011

Anything that says it is for the lubrication of motors. I believe 3 in 1 says that is on the can if I am not mistaken.

daronk · Feb 5, 2011

Ok - here's an update. I came home today to find that the delivery guys dropped off the C450. It's getting installed on Monday. I doubt it with the amount of snow on my roof along with another storm tomorrow....

anyways...looks like the delivery guys banged the doors coming through the house door....why didn't they remove them first? It takes about 2 seconds. Now those spots have lost the matte paint. Do I have them bring me another stove...I mean it's damaged and hasn't even touched my fireplace yet. There's another spot that seems flaky as well...did they have paint issues on this model?

Here's the kicker...the manf. date on the paperwork of the stove is 10-30-08. So is it customary when you order a new stove to get one that's over 2 1/4 years old? Should I request a new(er) one?

Are there any differences in build/design since then?

thanks...

Days away from purchasing a Jotul C450...

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