Will a stove upgrade save us money?

  • Active since 1995, Hearth.com is THE place on the internet for free information and advice about wood stoves, pellet stoves and other energy saving equipment.

    We strive to provide opinions, articles, discussions and history related to Hearth Products and in a more general sense, energy issues.

    We promote the EFFICIENT, RESPONSIBLE, CLEAN and SAFE use of all fuels, whether renewable or fossil.
Status
Not open for further replies.
I ran a very similar Vermont Castings stove from the same era, the bigger Defiant 1975. These stoves are designed to operate primarily with the damper closed (horizontal burn), once a good fire is established and the stove is really hot. With the damper left open, and / or leaking gaskets, it will eat wood fast. I recommend checking all your gaskets to make sure they are intact, vacuum out behind the fireback and make sure the secondary burn is working, and the air passages are not clogged with ash. When these old VC stove are maintained, they actually perform very well when the damper is closed. They may not be quite as efficient as a modern EPA stove, but they are not “smoke dragons” either.

Get a copy of the owners manual and read it, it should be available here:

http://legacy.vermontcastings.com/catalog/elements/files/Defiant_Vig_Res_Intre_Pre88-0226.pdf

The manual will give info on the parts of your stove and basic operation. You can learn a lot of the rest by searching old posts here on Hearth.com.
 
As far as your stove goes, get a good fire going, then close down the drafts. Go over all the joints and gaskets from the outside with a candle or butane grill lighter. Any leaks will be obvious when the candle flame gets sucked in. Then fix the leaks and the stove will burn better, and fix the leaks in your house and you'll be warmer.
 
[quote author="agartner" date="1290057774"another thing you can do about the window situation is to use heavy, thick, plush curtains.[/quote]

+1 That's a great suggestion! Especially at night. I Googled on "Thermal OR insulated curtains" and got a load of them.

Man, them's some big windows! Must be beautiful. I'm glad you're getting such great help.
 
Backwoods Savage said:
Whoa! A cord of oak and maple lasting only a month!!! Perhaps you are talking about a face cord. A cord of wood is 128 cu. in. A face cord is a stack of wood usually cut to 16" length and is 4' high and 8' long. There is a big difference.

!
Click to expand...

Backwoods, I think you mean that a cord is 128 cu FEET, not cubic inches, right?

To the OP. I can only second what everyone else is saying. You have a great stove that will do the job for you but you are spinning your wheels if you don't have decent windows, plus a lot of other air leaks. Try scavenging for wood. A lot of us never pay a penny for a stick of wood. I've found all sorts of sources around here. A lot of people highly recommend Craigs List for free wood (beware of CL firewood dealers, though.) Talk to tree service companies. Check your local landfill. Watch for utility companies clearing easements. Look for new home construction sites. You could save enough money in firewood in just a few years to pay for your windows.

Get yourself an owners manual and get to know that stove. It most likely needs gaskets and a good clean out. That "flap" on the back is actually a thermostat, or should be. It does have a coil spring attached to the flap, right? You set the little handle where you want it. If the fire gets too hot, the coil reacts and causes the flap to close, shutting down the fire. If it cools off, the flap opens allowing more air flow to kick the fire up again.
Also get yourself a good surface thermometer. Once you get the fire up as hot as you want, pack it to the gills, shut down the doors completely, throw the damper to horizontal, have that little circle vent open only a wee bit and the back flap/thermostat can be nearly or all the way shut and that baby will burn nice and warm all night long, depending on what kind of wood you're burning. With luck, you'll have some good coals in the morning. Throw a few sticks on to get it going again for another day.

Stay in touch and let us know how it's going for you. Check in with the Woodshed forum to learn more about wood scrounging. It's a fun way of life!
 
Kenster said:
Backwoods Savage said:
Whoa! A cord of oak and maple lasting only a month!!! Perhaps you are talking about a face cord. A cord of wood is 128 cu. in. A face cord is a stack of wood usually cut to 16" length and is 4' high and 8' long. There is a big difference.

!
Click to expand...

Backwoods, I think you mean that a cord is 128 cu FEET, not cubic inches, right?

To the OP. I can only second what everyone else is saying. You have a great stove that will do the job for you but you are spinning your wheels if you don't have decent windows, plus a lot of other air leaks. Try scavenging for wood. A lot of us never pay a penny for a stick of wood. I've found all sorts of sources around here. A lot of people highly recommend Craigs List for free wood (beware of CL firewood dealers, though.) Talk to tree service companies. Check your local landfill. Watch for utility companies clearing easements. Look for new home construction sites. You could save enough money in firewood in just a few years to pay for your windows.

Get yourself an owners manual and get to know that stove. It most likely needs gaskets and a good clean out. That "flap" on the back is actually a thermostat, or should be. It does have a coil spring attached to the flap, right? You set the little handle where you want it. If the fire gets too hot, the coil reacts and causes the flap to close, shutting down the fire. If it cools off, the flap opens allowing more air flow to kick the fire up again.
Also get yourself a good surface thermometer. Once you get the fire up as hot as you want, pack it to the gills, shut down the doors completely, throw the damper to horizontal, have that little circle vent open only a wee bit and the back flap/thermostat can be nearly or all the way shut and that baby will burn nice and warm all night long, depending on what kind of wood you're burning. With luck, you'll have some good coals in the morning. Throw a few sticks on to get it going again for another day.

Stay in touch and let us know how it's going for you. Check in with the Woodshed forum to learn more about wood scrounging. It's a fun way of life!
Click to expand...

It's called poor proof reading! lol
 
Just FYI, I had a very similar situation last year. I bought the fancy new monster stove in sig, parked it in the middle of a 900 sq ft house, and froze for the first few weeks... Talk about frustration! It replaced a big Englander, which heated the place to overwhelming. After much frustration, I determined that step one - the stove was working fine. Step two - where was the heat going? Oh - up to the 9' ceiling, then out the roof nowhere since we had little insulation in the attic. The rest of it was all going out the huge window bay across from the stove. Spent $200 blowing in insulation, spent another $100 on thermal blackout curtains at walmart ($10 ea), added a blower to the stove, and never had another problem heating the place. Heat loss out windows is huge, but even the best window will be around R4 or so. Unless you get some covering on them, radiant heat will just get sucked out the window. Another thing to consider, most heat loss is vertical so as mentioned previously the insulation above you is the biggest investment. Sealing drafts and covering the windows is the next big return. Windows and wall insulation would be third on my list.

Two other notes - given how much wood you're using, a newer stove might be nice a reward as you can pick up an Englander for about $900, before the tax credit so under $700 after the credit. It might not give you the immediate savings, but you'll definitely feel better feeding it than being frustrated feeding the one you have. And that satisfaction is worth something, spending an evening in front of a stove you enjoy using and not get frustrated using because it takes so much wood makes for a happier time in the home!

Second, you might consider replacing the larger windows with several smaller ones, it would be a lot cheaper and easier to manage replacing, maybe one set of three or four at a time. Just run a few studs up in between and with good quality windows it would still look nice, but be a lot more manageable costwise. Unless you're stuck on the attraction of the huge ones, then just keep saving the pennies for what you want!
 
doug_fir said:
I know the windows are my biggest culprits. The only issue is they are ridiculously large (albeit amazing to look out!). I was given a quote of between $3000-$4000 to replace one window! (it measures 131" x 90"). There are 4 others in this size range. And then there are all those medium sized ones.
Click to expand...

Apparently some people DO live in glass houses.

This is a major problem in far too many houses. Good thermo-pane windows have a r value of about 2. I would seriously consider having the openings of some of those windows reduced or even eliminated - this may require the help of an architect. Fuel cost are not going down in the near or medium term and you pay for it every winter. Good insulation is pretty much buy once, have forever. Everyplace you eliminate or reduce the size of a window you decrease your heat loss for that area ten fold or more. Good insulation also pays year round - cooling and heating seasons.

As noted above, attack the ceiling insulation first, if needed. For your climate I like R 50. This is comparatively cheap. Then track down the energy leaks and plug with caulk, foam sealant, door gaskets, whatever (I recently bought a house where the door gaskets were so poor you could actually stand in the living room and feel the breeze!). Don't forget things like stuck barometric dampers on dryer and bathroom vents. Next, do the overhaul on your stove and learn how to operate it, as mentioned above. Then, tackle those windows - one at a time if need be. Look at replacements, elimination, insulating cellular shades, insulating curtains ($$ in custom sizes), or a combination of all the above.

I will mention in passing that poor insulation is the cause of many complaints about heat from a wood stove not reaching certain rooms. Many times, there is lots of heat coming into the room, it is just going out through the walls and ceilings even faster!
 
Another thought. I used to live in Japan before and most of their house have sliding aluminum/wood door that cover all the windows. They use that at night just for security.

So, for the same concept. You can install that kind of thing or something like hurricane shutter outside so you can open it up during day time to enjoy the view, and close it down at night for a better insulation. I bet it'll have much better R-value that the curtain.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/rickcogley/2784896591/

Cheers.....Som
 
Yes your windows are huge almost 8*10 And single pane glass, huge heat loss i would buy some cheap honeycomb blinds or put blankets over them at night for the time being. I am a contractor and windows are expensive but that quote seems high get some more prices or go to the chepo depot they will give you a quote if you give them the sizes
 
I agree with Badbob - I did/do occasional window installation, and have access to dealer prices for one brand, and that sounds really high unless there are other unique factors. Cut it in half or 2/3 at most, did you get different quotes that were all about the same?
 
On a budget go for storm windows. Many good ideas thrown out on this thread. There are a lot of ways to DIY if you are inclined...

At $3k a pop you probably wont get the investment back in your lifetime on a new window. At best you are going to go from R1 (single pane) to maybe R3-5 (for 2 and 3 pane gas filled low e NASA windows).


The usual order of priority in return on $ Ive read is:
1 air sealing
2 roof insulation
3 wall insulation & windows
 
jharkin said:
On a budget go for storm windows. Many good ideas thrown out on this thread. There are a lot of ways to DIY if you are inclined...

At $3k a pop you probably wont get the investment back in your lifetime on a new window. At best you are going to go from R1 (single pane) to maybe R3-5 (for 2 and 3 pane gas filled low e NASA windows).


The usual order of priority in return on $ Ive read is:
1 air sealing
2 roof insulation
3 wall insulation & windows
Click to expand...

You got that straight. And the windows are covered by 1) and 2).

I'd suggest not stuffing the stove with wood. Maybe 1/3, and let it burn to coals. You want to have good conditions for secondary combustion- if you see smoke, you have a problem with secondary combustion, and are throwing unburnt fuel to the winds. (Of course, deal with leaks and gaskets, and t-stat first.)

You can dry out wood quite a bit by stacking it near the stove for a few days. It'll burn better and cleaner (and ... more efficiently.)
 
is it possible to thread hijack while staying somewhat on topic? I guess this is my attempt....

I'm burning manzanita this year, talk about a hot wood, lord. But I still can't seem to get the stove to burn in horizontal mode even when starting after the 2nd load of wood going in thru the top. Plenty of really hot coals and lots of dry wood above. I crank the flue temp up around 6-700* figuring that would be more than hot enough and then throw the handle over to horizontal. The little side air flap under the horiz/vert handle is fully open. Then I watch as the stove just dies off, flip the handle back to vertical after hitting about 250* on the flue temp and the temps pick back up. Any suggestions on what to try to get it to burn in horiz?
 
btuser said:
I'm voting for a new stove after attic inulation.
Click to expand...


I second that...caulk the hell out of those windows insulate, insulate, insulate, (it's cheap) and buy a good new stove. Do it in stages if you have to. I to had a stove that would eat wood and putting in a good insert saved me on my wood, gas heat, burn times and gave me the comfort of warmth. A new stove is unbelievable in it's heating and burning times.

I'm guess those windows have a great view...I have two walls of windows from ceiling to floor in my great room they make windows way better now. I would never make them smaller just add a log on that fire. Good luck with your decisions, your on the right track...by being here IMHO.
md
 
formula_pilot said:
I ran a very similar Vermont Castings stove from the same era, the bigger Defiant 1975. These stoves are designed to operate primarily with the damper closed (horizontal burn), once a good fire is established and the stove is really hot. With the damper left open, and / or leaking gaskets, it will eat wood fast. I recommend checking all your gaskets to make sure they are intact, vacuum out behind the fireback and make sure the secondary burn is working, and the air passages are not clogged with ash. When these old VC stove are maintained, they actually perform very well when the damper is closed. They may not be quite as efficient as a modern EPA stove, but they are not “smoke dragons” either.

Get a copy of the owners manual and read it, it should be available here:

http://legacy.vermontcastings.com/catalog/elements/files/Defiant_Vig_Res_Intre_Pre88-0226.pdf

The manual will give info on the parts of your stove and basic operation. You can learn a lot of the rest by searching old posts here on Hearth.com.
Click to expand...

Amazing what you learn here - thanks. I've always run mine with the damper open. I think this explains a few things...

Time to look at the maintenance section of the manual as well...
 
Great advice and recommendations everyone. Thanks again!
Here's an update since my last post . . .

Regarding some of the efficiency issues. I had our local electric co-op come out to inspect the house. Looks like everything that could be done was done prior to our buying the house. The crawlspace was re-insulated and a new weather barrier installed, the attic was insulated, (it hadn't been), all duct work was sealed and insulated, walls were inspected and drafts sealed.

I also ordered new gaskets from VC and replaced them. I do notice a slower burn, but it's nothing to write home about. I also bought a thermometer - what a great purchase. Being able to see when the stove is burning at an ideal temp, and being able to control it is just great. I can only wonder how many hours I logged in the creosote zone before now. I also picked up a moisture meter. Love it! All of our wood tests out below 20% moisture, unless I stick it in the bark which can hold a lot of moisture - in which case I usually scrape it off before burning. Next I'm going to vacuum out the stove.

As for my thermostat. It's broken. The coil and lever simply aren't there. There's a broken piece of chain attached to the rear air intake flap. That's all. I attached a piece of copper wire to it that I can hook over the top of the rear heat shield. I now manually open and close it to keep the temp in the ideal zone. Gotta look into replacing that.

I usually leave the side air intake all the way open. I find that if I close it completely (with the rear intake also closed), the fire will simply go out. I've tried this a couple times and when I notice the temp drops dramatically, and open the top to find a pile of smoking wood, covered with brown residue, and no flames.

And finally, the windows. I had a weatherization company come out on Monday to have a look. They're returning with their chief field estimator sometime soon. It's gonna be a task. I was told underwriter compliant windows can't exceed 40sq ft, (our largest is about 75sq ft), so we'll definitely have to remove and section ours out, which is a shame. And they're simply much too large for storm windows. He ball-parked the job for the whole house at somewhere between $30k-$50k. Blam!!

So . . . with Dec 31st quickly approaching, (and with it a federal tax credit deadline), and since I live in Oregon and have to pay to remove and destroy my VC should we ever sell the house, and with window replacements being an extremely expensive, long-term undertaking, I ask your advice:

Door #1 = New stove and burn less wood? (assuming the wood is properly seasoned, of course)
Door #2 = Keep the ol' VC and just wait until the windows can eventually be replaced. (Curtains sound like my best option).


Oh, for fun . . . I've attached some pictures so everyone can see what 'the little VC that could' is up against :)


Thanks again for all the super advice and for taking the time to share it.
 

Attachments

  • windows.jpg
    windows.jpg
    62.5 KB · Views: 263
  • windows_2.jpg
    windows_2.jpg
    68.7 KB · Views: 258
No advice for your specific situation, but wow, what a view!!
 
I live in Oregon and if it was me I would leave those windows as they are and quickly buy a more modern stove. My neighbor has a larger Quadrafire & he sometimes has to open a window it gets so hot inside. I'm not so sure what you mean by paying to have your old stove removed & destroyed. I see a lot of older stoves for sale on Craigs list.
 
Some thoughts after viewing your photos:

The payback on a new wood burning stove will be heart-breaking slow. Get one to reduce the trips to the woodpile, to making flue cleaning less frequent, to (possibly) make attention less frequent, or because you just want one, but not to save money.

$30 - 50 thousand would buy rather a lot of insulating shutters, which would dwarf any savings new windows could provide. http://www.outerware4windows.com - or any number of other providers.
 
Dieselbreath said:
I'm not so sure what you mean by paying to have your old stove removed & destroyed. I see a lot of older stoves for sale on Craigs list.
Click to expand...

If we were to sell our house, we have to pay to have the old VC removed and destroyed since it's non-EPA approved. It's Oregon state law as of this year.
Selling them on the used market is still ok, but the paper trail of a home sale requires proof of both removal and destruction (from what I understand).
 
I've received some amazing information here. Thank you all.

After much thought, and after receiving great advice from everyone, we've decided to do the following:

1) Get a new stove - we'll have to pay to remove and destroy our old VC Vigilant anyway if we sell the home (Oregon law), and we'll feel better about using a more efficient and more enviro-friendly stove.

2) Thermal blackout curtains on the windows. It will be better than nothing, and it's an affordable option.

3) Install a ceiling fan to push the warm air back down from the peak of our vaulted ceiling.

Since replacing the windows is cost prohibitive at this point, and since whatever could be insulated has been insulated, I think this is our best move.

As for the new stove, we're restricted to a rear exit flu. Out immediate choices:
We have a local deal who is offering us 20% off an a brand new Equinox with rear heat shield: Total purchase price: $3298.00 (great price for a new EQ). Though, we have another dealer in town who handles Jotel. We think the F600 would be a good fit for our cold, open floor plan home. It's much cheaper and may do the same if not a better job of heating the space.

I worry about the max heat output of the Equinox not being sufficient for our home though. Our Vigilant running at 500 degrees doesn't even seem to put a dent in the chill. At 600+ degrees it start to feel good.

Any opinions on the EQ over the F600 in this situation?


Thanks!
 
Two very different stoves. The Jotul is cast iron and the Equinox is soapstone, which have different burning characteristics and heat output curves. I'll let the engineers around here elaborate.

I think it's been said on this board about the Equinox "wow, that's a big rock". I'm a big Hearthstone fan, but that Jotul is beautiful also and I think would fit with your decor, for sure.

Can't go wrong either way, IMHO.
 
jotul8e2 said:
$30 - 50 thousand would buy rather a lot of insulating shutters, which would dwarf any savings new windows could provide. http://www.outerware4windows.com - or any number of other providers.
Click to expand...

I'd leave those lovely windows in, and get some thermal drapes--that would make a huge difference for $1K, and give you a higher R-Value than new windows, with an unobstructed view. Even if you automated them, the expense would be insignificant compared to replacing with smaller windows.

And buy the new stove you're Jonesing for, and still be way ahead in cash outlay.

Have you considered that option?
 
RenovationGeorge said:
jotul8e2 said:
$30 - 50 thousand would buy rather a lot of insulating shutters, which would dwarf any savings new windows could provide. http://www.outerware4windows.com - or any number of other providers.
Click to expand...

I'd leave those lovely windows in, and get some thermal drapes--that would make a huge difference for $1K, and give you a higher R-Value than new windows, with an unobstructed view. Even if you automated them, the expense would be insignificant compared to replacing with smaller windows.

And buy the new stove you're Jonesing for, and still be way ahead in cash outlay.

Have you considered that option?
Click to expand...

When I saw this link in it's original post I just assumed "shutters" meant wooden hinged window coverings (y'know, like old school shutters) - I see I was very much mistaken. Thanks for re-posting the link.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

N
Recommendations for an enamel stove
Replies
7
Views
1K
The Hearth Room - Wood Stoves and Fireplaces
peakbagger
P
C
Guidance on wood stove as primary heat source?
Replies
3
Views
643
The Hearth Room - Wood Stoves and Fireplaces
EbS-P
EbS-P
K
Wood Stove suggestions for new to me 2500 sqft house
Replies
18
Views
1K
The Hearth Room - Wood Stoves and Fireplaces
Wildflush
W
T
Should I upgradeto a wood furnace add on or just upgrade my wood stove to one with a blower?
Replies
18
Views
790
The Hearth Room - Wood Stoves and Fireplaces
thebettycrocker
T
M
New stove recommendations
Replies
4
Views
650
The Hearth Room - Wood Stoves and Fireplaces
begreen
begreen
Top Bottom
Back