Last year the Substation by me had a fire, the 110 went to 190 volts and sat there for 2 minutes. It cooked 6 surge protectors in my house including the one on my Pellet Stove, but no item got damaged other then the surge protectors. It was alot cheaper then 6 itmes (computers, TV's, Pellet Stove control board). They gave their lives for the equipment just as they were supposed to. I am a believer in surge protectors! :bug:
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caralck
New Member
I need to get a surge protector for the Harman accentra insert. Amazon has the tripp lite ISOBAR4 ultra. Kind of confused because it says "3330-joule surge suppression rating (more joules mean more protection)" at one part then just below that on the page:
Power Protection Type: Surge Suppressor
Cord Length: 6 ft.
Watts: 1440 Watt
Voltage: 120 VAC
Surge Energy Capacity: 2200 Joules
so does it protect against 2200 joules or 3330? I'm also planning on putting the digital keyboard that's rarely used on this thing since the stove and the keyboard will share the outlet. Regardless, is this a good product to go with? Thanks!
Power Protection Type: Surge Suppressor
Cord Length: 6 ft.
Watts: 1440 Watt
Voltage: 120 VAC
Surge Energy Capacity: 2200 Joules
so does it protect against 2200 joules or 3330? I'm also planning on putting the digital keyboard that's rarely used on this thing since the stove and the keyboard will share the outlet. Regardless, is this a good product to go with? Thanks!
ylomnstr
Feeling the Heat
Would this do the trick?
http://www.amazon.com/APC-Back-UPS-shutdown-software-UPS-BE350G/dp/B001985SWW
http://www.amazon.com/APC-Back-UPS-shutdown-software-UPS-BE350G/dp/B001985SWW
geek
Minister of Fire
Dr. Bigfoot said:
Sounds pretty good, i watched a video on buy.com and they say 3,300 joules. Check it out here:
http://www.buy.com/prod/tripp-lite-...tlet-surge-suppressor/q/loc/101/10031262.html
Wonder if they have the same but with only 1 outlet, which is all i need.
krooser
Minister of Fire
I bought one at Wally World last week and it's rated at 2200 joules... not sure what a joule is but I hope that one will work.
My stove may have been saved by not having one on it this year. We had what I call a brown out or low power condition for about 3 hours last week and my surge protectors did allot of damage lost a TV, wii, and AV receiver. Payed good money for them last year around $100 each. That is when a nice magnetic switch box would be good. Power drops switch turns off and wont turn back on until you flip the switch. I think I am going to use a protector then switch box to protect against high low voltage problems.
WoodPorn
Minister of Fire
Older UPS would have a relay that shorted two wires on the old RS-232 serial port. That was a signal to the OS to shutdown.j-takeman said:
That signal was not generated when power was lost. It was a signal that said, the UPS battery was dying - shutdown the computer.
USB port must send an actual serial data stream. Hacking means installing a USB interface inside the stove to read that signal.
UPS does nothing to protect hardware. Power loss does not harm hardware. Even international design standards decades before the IBM PC existed demanded same. Meanwhile a UPS in battery backup mode is some of the 'dirtiest' power an appliance will typically see. So 'dirty' as to be harmful to small electric motors and power strip protectors. And perfectly ideal to all electronics. Electronics are so robust as to make power (that may even harm a power strip protector) completely irrelevant and perfectly sufficient for the electronics.
Long before recommending a solution, first define what must be protected from what. A UPS does not provide hardware protection and does not claim to. Read its specification numbers. UPS signaling is to request computer power off after many minutes - after a UPS battery has become too discharged and will soon shut off the UPS. So that a computer can save unsaved data. It does not respond immediately to a power off.
mainegeek
Member
westom said:
I disagree.
UPS' provide protection against surges and sages; two very large producers of electrical component malfunctions. A good UPS should output a sine wave. That sine wave should be completely disconnected from the input AC. By that I mean, all power should be (in a good UPS) conditioned rather then used directly even when power is available.
I do however agree that UPS power can have damaging effects on motors and such. But, I disagree that electronics are "robust" enough to deal with power problems. I work in computers/IT. I can tell that is not the case. Electronics nowadays are EXTREMELY sensitive to voltage fluctuations. And even though MOST products nowadays internally convert AC to DC that does not make them any more robust. Bad power in leads to unreliable DC power out.
I would rather have my pellet stove (w/ attached UPS) continue to run "unharmed" through multiple brown outs and a black out only to finally quit cleanly when the UPS battery is completely discharged.
Good. Then you are posting those manufacturer spec numbers that make those claims. BTW, good luck. An overwhelming majority can be scammed into believing anything because the claims are made subjectively and because those people never demand facts and numbers.mainegeek said:
So what is that sine wave? Let's view the sine wave output from this 120 volt UPS in battery backup mode. 200 volt square waves with a spike of up to 270 volts between those square waves.
Then we add facts from high school math. Those square waves are a sum of sine waves. So they did not lie. They just made subjective claims knowing that a majority will blindly believe the first thing told. And never demand numbers with hard facts.
As accurately stated, dirty electricity from a UPS is perfectly ideal for all electronics. Even in a 1970 design standard, 120 volt electronics must withstand transients up to 600 volts without damage. IOW a UPS outputting a 270 volt spike is ideal power for any electronics.
So we view spec numbers from a UPS. 400 joules. That is near zero protection. But just enough above zero to claim 100% protection in a sales brochure. Destructive surges are typically hundreds of thousands of joules. Which is why informed homeowners earth one 'whole house' protector. So that even direct lightning strikes (and lesser transients) cause no damage. So that even the protector is not harmed. So that the superior protection exists for about $1 per protected appliance. And that is how it was done even 100 years ago.
BTW, earthing that 'whole house' protector is also important for protecting plug-in protectors. If a 'whole house' protector is not properly earthed, then adjacent protector can even compromise protection inside electronics. The IEEE demonstrates this in a figure where the protector - too close to electronics and too far from earth ground - earths that surge 8000 volts destructively via a nearby TV.
Protection always - does the expression 'there is no other solution' - is always about where energy dissipates. Either energy dissipates harmlessly outside a building. Or that surge will hunt for earth (choose which appliances to harm) destructively via appliances.
UPS claims near zero protection from one type of surge that typically does no damage. Which means sales brochures can claim it does 100% protection - without numbers. Where are your spec numbers? You cannot provide any. That UPS does not do what retail propaganda orders you to believe. An example of that 120 volt sine wave is 200 volt square waves with a spike of 270 volts. They did not lie. You simply did not read spec numbers.
Informed homeowners, instead, learn why earthing must be upgraded to both meet and exceed post 1990 National Electrical code. And one 'whole house' proetctor ... for everything.
One final point. This comes from generations of design experience. By learning how it was done even 100 years ago.
Nicholas440
Feeling the Heat
I use an APC 1500, and been using APC's on my computers for 15 years without a problem and I get a lot of surges and spikes here. I also put a surge protector ahead of the APC just in case to protect the APC unit. The UPS units are not immune to a hefty surge it can wipe a UPS unit right out. Surge protection works providing you get a good one, and not the dollar store specials. Surge protectors have an MOV (metal oxide variistor) in them which directs the surge to ground. Some Surge protectors have gas filled tubes in them which also put the surge to ground. I read that. Google up surge protector you'll see diagrams of whats inside them and how they work, also the joules recommendation, you want a high joules rating, bigger is better in this case.
good article about them and how they work and how to choose them here : http://electronics.howstuffworks.com/surge-protector1.htm
good article about them and how they work and how to choose them here : http://electronics.howstuffworks.com/surge-protector1.htm
HowStuffWorks is a benchmark that identifies the electrically naive. That HowStuffWorks articles is so full of myth and lies that very long posts would only discuss the mistakes in its first page.Nicholas440 said:
Surges occur typically once every seven years. If someone is getting frequent surges and spikes, then he is replacing dimmer switches, clock radios, and bathroom GFCIs constantly. Most see the slightest anomaly. Then call is a surge. That is mindset promoted by retail advertising so that many will buy ineffective and obscenely profitable power strip protectors.
How does a surge protector connect a surge to ground when it is so far away from earth ground? No problem. To promote the scam, they simply confuse earth ground with safety ground. To divert massive energy to earth, the protector must be within feet of single point earth ground. All four words have engineering significance. Why does a plug-in protectors not discuss single point earth ground? It does not claim to protect from that type of surge. Better is to keep people confuse with myths such as in HowStuffWorks.
To be earthed, a protector must have a dedicated wire for a short connection to that electrode. The wire must be separated from other non-grounding wires (not part of a power cable or wires inside the wall). But have no sharp bends (another reasons why a wall receptacle is not earth ground). No splices. No inside metallic conduit. Just a few of the many reasons why plug-in protectors will not discuss earth ground. AND do not claim protection in the manufacturer specifications.
All appliances contain serious protection. Anything a protector would do adjacent to the appliance is already inside the appliance. A surge too small to overwhelm internal protection can sometimes destroy the grossly undersized protector. Then the naive consumer will *assume*, "My protector sacrificed itself to save my computer."
Nonsense. Any protector that fails during a surge did no surge protection. Just another in a very long list of reasons why informed homeowners earth one 'whole house' protector. Upgrade that earthing. And waste no money on plug-in protectors.
Destructive surges occur maybe once every seven years. A protector is only as effective as its earth ground. Effective protectors have that ‘always required’ short connection to single point earth ground (that is different from safety ground). HowStuffWorks does not discuss any of this. Protection is always about where energy dissipates. A protector is only as effective as its ‘earth’ ground.
WoodPorn
Minister of Fire
westom said:
I understand what you are saying here but, I think you may be confusing two different things. You said "To be earthed, a protector must have a dedicated wire for a short connection to that electrode. The wire must be separated from other non-grounding wires (not part of a power cable or wires inside the wall). "
If this were the case it would basically be a lightning protection system with electrodes on the roof line and chimney with a dedicated line to dissipate all current to ground
Any "whole house" surge suppressor, lightning arrestor, or surge capacitor is always connected at the 1st point of distribution ie; circuit breaker panel in your home. The leads are connected to the 2 incoming power legs, and the equipment ground bar which is where ALL circuit grounds from the system terminate. including outlets, switches, ground rods, and water pipe bonds, I imagine the ground rod is is what you refer to as Earth ground?
Unless the homeowner is an engineer or an experienced electrician there will never be a dedicated path to ground (there really is no need for it) if the home is wired correctly -or- at least somewhat up to date the surge suppressor should do it's job just fine by deflecting the spike to an effective ground path.
Electrical engineer here. I also work in IT. Please disregard what westom says. He may have some accurate points regarding whole-house lightning protection, but not much else. One of the many erroneous points that westom made was that UPS-provided AC power is some of the 'dirtiest' power available. That may be true for a 'stepped approximation to a sine wave' UPS, but not an online, double-conversion type, which is what most of you should be considering purchasing if you plan on using your UPS together with your generator. It is the only design that can successfully use the rapidly changing frequencies and voltages provided by a small genset (<12kW).
Well, how about this. I am not a pellet stove owner yet, but ready to buy this week,until this. I just had a power surge followed by 6 hour black out. It blew all my surge protectors,they saved the computers, stereos, front load washer,etc that were plugged into them. They did their job,and I just replaced them, $40 ea. But it fried 2 newer kitchen appliances($2400), tripped breakers and fried most GFCI outlets. Filing a claim with power company and homeowners insurance. Looking at whole house protector. Not the first time this has happened. Previously the power company took no responsibility,"Act of God" even though they were working on the lines at the time. I've had surge protectors blow and leave a burnt spot on wood floor.. Just my thoughts, they are well worth the investment.
I think I am more confused after reading this thread then before 
I am considering investing in a UPS. Thanks to this forum, I did avoid buying a step sine wave ups that I was about to purchase. What I want is protection from the quick power outage and also as a protection when running stove on generator. I found this ups on amazon and have researched from few different places and to me it looks like a good investment. I am however afraid to introduce more issues by adding a UPS to the mix. I am also in IT and use UPS's heavily on servers and comm equipment. Does this one look like it will be beneficial for my pellet stove?
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...&pf_rd_t=101&pf_rd_p=470939031&pf_rd_i=507846
I am considering investing in a UPS. Thanks to this forum, I did avoid buying a step sine wave ups that I was about to purchase. What I want is protection from the quick power outage and also as a protection when running stove on generator. I found this ups on amazon and have researched from few different places and to me it looks like a good investment. I am however afraid to introduce more issues by adding a UPS to the mix. I am also in IT and use UPS's heavily on servers and comm equipment. Does this one look like it will be beneficial for my pellet stove? http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...&pf_rd_t=101&pf_rd_p=470939031&pf_rd_i=507846
tm22 said:I think I am more confused after reading this thread then before
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...&pf_rd_t=101&pf_rd_p=470939031&pf_rd_i=507846
If you're interested in sticking with CyberPower, I'd recommend this true online, dual-conversion UPS:
http://www.amazon.com/OL1000RMXL2U-...1?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1290621638&sr=1-1
Sure, it's more expensive, but it'll run off your generator and regenerate the AC waveform from a reference source (very little frequency variation, very little voltage variation, plus emi/rfi suppression, etc).
Make sure that this UPS has enough wattage to run your stove even when the ignitor is on. (Your stove needs to be rated at less than 700W when ignitor is on).
Thanks Madge! I am not too concerned with sticking with cyberpower, just want to understand the technologies that best suit my needs. Thanks again!
The surge was same on both the protector and adjacent appliances. All appliances contain serious protection. But to promote sales, protector manufacturers would grossly undersize the protector. Disconnect protector circuit as fast as possible. An appliance is left to protect itself.gfreek said:
A surge too small to harm some appliances easily destroyed the scam protectors. That got you to recommend them.
A protector must earth and surge. And remain functional. One effective 'whole house' protector is rated at 50,000 amps or higher. Why? Because a typical lightning strike is 20,000 amps. A protector must earth that surge - and not fail.
Your protector failed on a surge too small to harm the adjacent appliance. You spent how much for each protector? One 'whole house protector from Lowes or Home Depot costs $50. That is less than $1 per protected appliance. And means the protector remains functional after each surge.
Effective protection means you never even knew the surge exists. But then you would not be recommending those scam protectors here.
In any location where even direct lightning strikes must cause no damage, then earthing is upgraded. And only ‘whole house’ type protectors are used for the always short (ie ‘less than 10 foot’) connection to earth. How it was done even 100 years ago. That plug-in protector does not even claim to protect from typically destructive surges. A protector is only as effective as its earth ground.
If an electric motor is directly driven by AC, then a cheap UPS is very 'dirty' power. However, if that motor is driven by a power supply (ie a fan inside a computer), then that power supply makes 'dirty' electricity irrelevant.tm22 said:
Cheap and 'dirty' UPSes are $60 and $hundreds. A 'pure sine wave' UPS starts about $500 retail.
Same applies to a generator. Many spend more for a superior generator such as Honda. A generator outputting 'dirty' electricity may confuse electronics inside a UPS. So that UPS switches to battery power; does not use power from the generator. Just another precaution. Something to test before a blackout happens.
Always easier and less expensive is to make electricity cleaner at its source (ie a generator). Plug-in devices to fix 'dirty' power cost more; are more myth than a solution.
St_Earl
Minister of Fire
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