"Savings" on my gas bill this month $14.81 but actually lost over $58 burning wood?!

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geoffm24 said:
Jags said:
Sumting ain't adding up here.

Lets see: Cord of hardwood, lets just use maple as a middle of the road example (hard maple) 3680# seasoned.
1/3 of that is 1227#
@ 6930 btu per pound thats 8.5 million btu.
@ 80% efficiency - thats 6.8 million btu entering the home.

You can buy 6.8 million btu of natural gas for 14 bucks and change???

Something else is going on here.
Click to expand...

Looking at my bill I used 8 Therms less this year then last year. 1 Therm = 100,000 BTU. Now it was also 3 degrees colder on average this year (last Nov was very warm) so lets say I would have used 10 more therms then Nov 2009. So using this I saved 18 Therms this year or 1,800,000 BTUs. I figure the red maple kicked out 6,000,000 BTUs. The problem is that 4,200,000 of those BTUs were spent heating the stove room and some of the house to a temp above what I would prefer ie 85 degrees.

So I used 6,300,000 BTUs in gas for everything this months and it cost me $86.06. A third of a cord of red maple would give me that same amount of BTUs for less money even if you were paying for the wood. The issue is that I can't heat my water with the wood and the wood stove doesn't distribute the heat as efficiently as the furnace and central air system so there are too many BTUs being wasted in the stove room and not enough in the far corners of the house it seems.
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pedestal_fan.jpg
 
for me, burning with wood is a lifestyle choice. I enjoy the exercise, heat, scrounging and the enjoyment of providing for my family. I have not given Laclede gas a dime of my money in many years. I wouldn't even have a clue if my gas is still turned on at the main. It is a learning curve and a lifestyle, enjoy it!
 
Yeah something doesn't add up. We don't have gas or any other kind of heat for that matter except wood in this 2,500 sq. ft. joint and our average temp has been 47 over that same time frame and I haven't used but a third of a cord. And all but six splits have been two year old pine. That is the entire heating bill and I won't put up with the place being under seventy degrees upstairs and down.
 
I know I burn way more wood for the heat if I'm starting from cold stove all the time. Letting the insert warm up I get little heat for the first 1/2hr or more and it is really eating some wood then with air wide open. Do that twice a day & it adds up
 
geoffm24 said:
Jags said:
The issue is that I can't heat my water with the wood and the wood stove doesn't distribute the heat as efficiently as the furnace and central air system so there are too many BTUs being wasted in the stove room and not enough in the far corners of the house it seems.
Click to expand...

Sounds like you need a wood boiler, not a stove.
Click to expand...
 
All of these calculations ignore the heat generated by splitting and stacking wood and the physical benefits of these activities (discounted for injuries).
 
You're gas bill seems REALLY low to me, and cord wood seems to be a little higher than I'm using to seeing (in my area at least).

What type of house do you have and how big is it? It must be pretty well insulated!

There have been some threads on here that talk about calculating cost per BTU of different fuels. When talking about firewood, it's nearly impossible to get exact numbers (since type of wood and moisture levels will vary the numbers), but you can probably get close enough to compare the cost per BTU of your firewood vs. your natural gas supply.

If nothing else, looking at the numbers could help you figure out what price you'd have to pay per cord in order to save money.

-SF

Edit: Oops! Didn't see the second page of this thread... they've already talked about this...
 
midwestcoast said:
I know I burn way more wood for the heat if I'm starting from cold stove all the time. Letting the insert warm up I get little heat for the first 1/2hr or more and it is really eating some wood then with air wide open. Do that twice a day & it adds up
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QFT!!!

Drives me nuts starting cold every time at this time of year!

-SF



(Quoted For Truth)
 
dave11 said:
I think its very true that heating with wood is a money-losing proposition compared to natural gas IF you need to pay for your wood. When I don't need to pay for my wood, by my own calculation, I'm just breaking even, when considering the work and time and other expenses involved.

That said, regarding the efficiencies of the various stoves being listed, they are very unlikely, IMO, to be anywhere close in reality to what the manufacturers say. What they get at the lab under ideal conditions is going to be way higher than what we get at home. When my stove is going, and I walk outside and see those big rippling heat waves rising over the chimney, or see all the snow melting on the roof in the direction of the wind, I know a huge amount of heat is being blasted out into the sky. It's wishful thinking that 80% of the energy in my wood is going into the interior of my house.
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Hmm, not so much here.
I pay for my logs, then process myself, and it's still less than using the nat. gas. I use about 2/3 cord/month on average, which costs me (including gas,oil,etc) less than $60. There is no way that I could heat this house for $60 using nat. gas.
Using the gas just to heat the water is about 25/month.
Not to be an azz, but just isn't so.
Still, the wood is already paid for, so I'm not turning on the furnace.
 
BrotherBart said:
Yeah something doesn't add up. We don't have gas or any other kind of heat for that matter except wood in this 2,500 sq. ft. joint and our average temp has been 47 over that same time frame and I haven't used but a third of a cord. And all but six splits have been two year old pine. That is the entire heating bill and I won't put up with the place being under seventy degrees upstairs and down.
Click to expand...

In the winter I figure I spend about $40 a month on non heating gas expenses (hot water etc.).

Now last Dec I used 166 Therms, Jan used 271 Therms, Feb used 216 Therms, Mar used 152 Therms. With Therms running at $1.366 I would spend $370.186 this Jan. Assuming $40 in non heating NG costs I could potentially save $330 in Jan. Since I can't get the wood stove heat upstairs and spend roughly half my energy costs on heating the upstairs ie $165, that leaves potential savings of $165 if I can heat my first floor 100% with wood. I'll probably rip through atleast half a cord in Jan I figure.

So it seems with natural gas prices where they are saving a few hundred to a max of $500 this winter is the best I can hope for. That gives me a break even on the stove and install around 5 years.

Oh well, I like the feel of wood heat and the atmosphere but it looks like saving any real money doing somethng I like isn't very realistic with current NG prices.
 
SlyFerret said:
You're gas bill seems REALLY low to me, and cord wood seems to be a little higher than I'm using to seeing (in my area at least).

What type of house do you have and how big is it? It must be pretty well insulated!

There have been some threads on here that talk about calculating cost per BTU of different fuels. When talking about firewood, it's nearly impossible to get exact numbers (since type of wood and moisture levels will vary the numbers), but you can probably get close enough to compare the cost per BTU of your firewood vs. your natural gas supply.

If nothing else, looking at the numbers could help you figure out what price you'd have to pay per cord in order to save money.

-SF

Edit: Oops! Didn't see the second page of this thread... they've already talked about this...
Click to expand...

The house is a modern cape built in 2005 and is very well insulated with all the latest energy efficient windows etc.
 
A break even of 5 years on ANY appliance in the home is nothing to sneeze at. How long will it take your wide screen to pay off. How about that oven??

After the pay off - its all gravy.
 
Man what a difference NG makes. I have Oil and the last delivery was 2.769 per gallon. Since 1999-200 heating season, (yes I have all the records) on average I have saved thus far, this year, almost $281 through November. This is using average gallonage usage and todays pricing (sorta takes care of inflation and weather fluxuation). We have no NG only LP, Oil or Kero. Burning wood is saving me a bundle and the payoff will be (my guess) 3-4 years. After that it is all gravy.
 
I broke even in 1989 and the new stoves were paid for ten years before I bought them.
 
Up until just a week ago, I was burning only gas to heat my house. Now that it is cold enough, I can burn wood without having to have a window open to let out excess heat. I enjoy burning wood more than I enjoy all the other work entailed. In fact, I will pay $100 per cord to have logs delivered to my yard rather than scrounge and cart it. I don't mind the bucking, splitting, and stacking but if someone did all that for me at a good price, I'd go that route.

If I didn't enjoy burning wood, I would just stick with gas but then I wouldn't be keeping the house at no 75° either.
 
That is the same price of NG. I paid with all gas appliances old house single pane windows. Had to buy wood gas is cheaper. Put a ng. stove in main room to keep at 78 deg. It actually cut my gas bill about 1/3 for the last three years. If you have free wood it might be worth it. Plus all the equipment you buy to use wood. Used wood for 15 years. Cold this month 0 deg f. High + 18 deg.f.
 
Battenkiller said:
It's hard to base your entire year's savings on your shoulder season performance. Wait until you get your Jan. and Feb. bills and compare then. I think you will be a little happier.

It's tough to beat NG right now, but that will change soon enough. Anyway, what's a guy with a truck and a saw doing paying $175/cord?
Click to expand...

NG prices aren't gonna take any big jumps for along time.
I have alot of investments in NG and am well informed. There's so much gas sitting under us that it wood blow yur mind.
If gas was coming in on my road ,I wood B the first to hook up,,,,, AND eye'm the woodman!
 
If I could get a natural gas hook up I wouldn't have ever looked to burning wood. Now that I have the stove and love the heat from wood I would continue to heat with wood even if they put a gas line in.

With propane it's an easy choice for me. My first year in my house I was paying 750 every 5 weeks during the coldest months.(Dec/Jan/Feb) Even if I paid for wood the stove payback would happen rather quickly. As it was the payoff was in the first season. I still use some propane for hot water and heat when I'm away but the house is a lot more comfortable now.
 
Figure out how to maximize your stove, then figure out how many BTUs you think you are pumping into your house (net) as a result of the stove. Be super conservative, if you want.

Then figure out how much it would take to do that via NG equivalent/cost.

Or simply try to turn off the NG and heat the house with wood heat and see what you can accomplish.
 
China and Russia just dropped trading with the dollar and the Federal Reserve just created 6 Billion dollars out of thin air. A supply of well seasoned wood is pretty valuable. Not to mention that once the impending collapse of society occurs, you and your family will be warm sans electric power, while others freeze. I figure a can of black beans will be $5.00+ before long.

OK, OK, a little over the top but you get the point. There's more to wood heat than pure economics. One week in January with no electric power and you will forget what you paid for the stove. Oh, and I agree with the others, the figures don't add up.
 
A-cord-ingLEE said:
Battenkiller said:
...Wait until you get your Jan. and Feb. bills and compare then. I think you will be a little happier. It's tough to beat NG right now, but that will change soon enough...
Click to expand...
NG prices aren't gonna take any big jumps for along time.I have alot of investments in NG and am well informed. There's so much gas sitting under us that it wood blow yur mind.If gas was coming in on my road ,I wood B the first to hook up,,,,, AND eye'm the woodman!
Click to expand...
I'm skeptical that the price of any fuel will remain low. Even if they have discovered "two Saudi Arabias" of NG in the US, as reported on 60 Minutes, they will convert all of the coal-fired power plants to NG and sell the coal to China. Use of compressed NG to power vehicles will also increase. Demand will increase, and so will price. None of the energy co's are going to be doing any favors for us. Wood offers greater energy independence.
 
Jags said:
Sumting ain't adding up here.

Lets see: Cord of hardwood, lets just use maple as a middle of the road example (hard maple) 3680# seasoned.
1/3 of that is 1227#
@ 6930 btu per pound thats 8.5 million btu.
@ 80% efficiency - thats 6.8 million btu entering the home.

You can buy 6.8 million btu of natural gas for 14 bucks and change???

Something else is going on here.
Click to expand...

Perceptive, and true.

Let's see, Geo says he burned (2.5-2.3)therms/day * 30 days = 6 therms less natural gas = 0.6M less BTU last month.

But he burned 6.8 M BTU more of wood? For a net additional heat input of 6.8-0.6 = 6.2M BTU = 6,200,000 *more* BTU into his house, on a 7% cooler month? :gulp: :roll:

So either Geo's heating his house dramatically hotter, his roof is missing, or he's fanning figurative rather than literal flames. ;-)

And then there's the double counting of wood costs...

But this thread has warmed us all up, lol. As soon as I saw the title of this one, I knew it was going to be a hot topic.

So I guess wood burning heats you four times, not three? When you cut it, when you split it, when you burn it, and when you debate it. :coolsmirk:

That said, the comparative cost of purchased wood versus natural gas has been discussed thoroughly, and few would argue that right now heating with purchased wood is cheaper than natural gas. That dead horse is thoroughly beaten, but give it a few more whacks if you like.
 
I bought a wood stove because our house doesn't have a fireplace and my wife was always complaining about not having one.

I was unprepared with wood, so I had to buy a cord. I didn't have plans to buy a stove, but when I came across a good deal, I jumped on it. As far as I knew, at the time, it was only as useful as a regular fireplace. I consider all of my stoves expenses as such.

After learning the stoves benefits and scoring more wood for free, I am hoping to shave a few hundred off my years gas bill.

I am not considering the expense of the stove, install and wood because I bought them just to keep her happy. If I cut the gas bill by burning nights and weekends, I am happy as can be.

Now, I am loving having the stove. I am obsessed with scoring free wood. I also like the exercise I get splitting wood.

My monthly gas bills last year got as high as 300 dollars, I'd guess 1000 total for the year. If it is under that, I consider myself ahead.

In my case, a happy wife and lower gas bills make me happy.
 
ya i agree its to early to tell and maybe start looking on craig' s list in the summer and get some free wood. last yr i got 3 cord of split and cut to length wood for nothing from a guy who was moving and the wood had to go. i also agree splitting and cutting is good exercise and keeps me busy and helps my mind focus on whats really important. i love it and get all my wood for free and dont even put the furnace on till late jan.
 
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