Help me get the heat to more of my home

joefrompa · Nov 24, 2010

Hi all,

Here's a diagram of my home. The thermostat, shown on the diagram, has not gone above 67-68 degrees even after burning at 450-550 degrees for 8 hours straight with an outside temp of 45. And, I usually can't get it to rise above 63-65 degrees when it's 35-40 degrees outside.

And my trained skin thermometer agrees with the temp reading. The stove room (shown above), including the kitchen, gets to about 80-85 degrees is my guess.

So I'm obviously facing:

#1 - I'm not able to get enough heat to keep us from using the oil-based hot air furnace during the cold months
#2 - If I can generate the heat, I can't spread it through my house

I've tried the following:

1. Blower on stove + ceiling fan = evenly spread room heat, but the room starts to overheat relatively easily. Thermostat goes up ~1-2 degrees from what it was at otherwise (ambient)

2. Blower on stove + ceiling fan + stand fan blowing TOWARDS the stove = evenly spread room heat, room doesn't overheat as much. Thermostat goes up ~1-2 degrees from what it was at otherwise (ambient). Because of the narrowness of the room, it seems like the fan is blowing air right back against the blower.

3. Blower on stove + ceiling fan + stand fan blowing AWAY from the stove = evenly spread room heat,. Thermostat goes up ~2-3 degrees from what it was at otherwise (ambient). Seems to work well but feels like alot of turbulence in the room.

4. Blower on stove + NO ceiling fan + stand fan blowing away from stove = seems to work very well, room still gets hot but alot of heat gets out of room.

5. Blower on stove + no ceiling fan + no stand fan + furnace fan turned on = Heat spreads most evenly through house - no room is overheated - thermostat goes up the most. Supposedly i'm losing the most heat this way though.

...

I'd really like some recommendations here. The stove room is a family room abutted to a garage and there is nothing directly above the stove room (above the garage is a bedroom).

The foyer is smallish but opens up very nicely to the upstairs hallway and bedrooms and there is definitely heat gathering in that hallway/foyer area. I have shut 2 bedrooms (about 350 square feet) completely out. The house is well-insulated, newer casement windows, and a recent air-sealing test showed the house to be well-sealed....above the minimum air flow requirements, but well sealed nonetheless.

Happy to answer any questions...really need to find a way to keep this house at 63-65 degrees using this stove with as little oil use as possible.

Joe

Stump_Branch · Nov 24, 2010

if what I am reading is correct that you have stairs in the foyer, where the thermostat is...Just like a thermal hitting a canyon wall, you could be experience stack effect. This area in you home draws the same way your chimney does. this will "pull" some of the cooler air nearest the floor up along with the warm air rising to your second floor. if per say your thermostat is at chest level this could be still low enough were that cool air reaches. i tried to attach a diagram, but i am forum illiterate, tried Auto-CAD to PDF but just failed so you'll have to accept my explanation.

Some thoughts would be to have a ceiling fan in the foyer/upstairs rooms. maybe attempt to place that box fan in the small walkway between stove room and foyer, I would try both point towards stove, simply because I can not gauge the size of fan to volume of air to be moved to know which would be best ( I do this enough for a day job ). just experiment.

shawneyboy · Nov 24, 2010

Assuming the ceiling fan is blowing up...... (check that if not sure), I would try blower on stove on, ceiling fan blowing up, stand fan in livingroom/diningroom area blowing towards the stove room. The idea is to get the air circulating, in this case, counter clockwise when looking down on the floorplan. This will either move more heat upstairs or move the heat throughout the lower level before it goes upstairs. I did not see on the diagram where the stairs are. If more heat goes upstairs, try placing fan in opposite doorway to move air clockwise.

Eidt **** OK the stairs are those rectangles in foyer.... try it with the fan blowing from foyer into stove room, Imagine the heat moving clockwise around the floorplan before hitting the stairs and rising.

begreen · Nov 24, 2010

Don't try blowing on the stove. Work with natural convection by blowing the cool air towards the warm. Put a table fan (stand fan is too tall) or a box fan on the floor in the dining room, pointed toward the stove room.

Dakotas Dad · Nov 24, 2010

Put the stand fan on the far wall of the dining room, blowing into the stove room aimed low. You want to blow cooler air into the heated room.

Dune · Nov 24, 2010

I am not seeing the whole first floor/second floor thing.

Aside from that, I would do just what was suggested above, small fan on the floor, in the doorway between the dining room and the kitchen, pointed towards the stove.

I have to wonder though, how dy is your wood?

gibson · Nov 25, 2010

Why would you think that the furnace fan causes you to lose heat? I hear a lot of folks on this board who swear that this is the best way to circulate the heat. If it works and your furnace isn't kicking on, I think you have a winner.

flyingpig · Nov 25, 2010

Hi Joe,

Floor fan blow cool air toward the stove room will be the key. But I'd suggest the opposite from other. Since hot air will rise up to 2nd floor anyway, I fear that the 2nd floor will "overheat" if we blow cool air from dining to kitchen room. I'd blow cool air from foyer to kitchen instead, let the warm air from kitchen drift to dining room first, then flow from dining to living, and finally a bit "cooler" air rise up to 2nd floor.

Also it'll be easier too to blow cool air into the smaller opening (foyer door) and let the warm air drift out from bigger opening (dining-kitchen). The opposite won't be that effective. I do the same way in my typical 4 rooms colonial and I have pretty even temp across 1st floor and not overheat the 2nd. You may need another ceiling fan in dining or living room though.

Cheers......Som

begreen · Nov 25, 2010

Sen. John Blutarsky said:
Why would you think that the furnace fan causes you to lose heat? I hear a lot of folks on this board who swear that this is the best way to circulate the heat. If it works and your furnace isn't kicking on, I think you have a winner.

There are a some that claim this works, but generally it does not unless it's a very well insulated system. Forced air systems usually are inefficient. Most setups suffer from a fair amount of duct loss which was compensated by installing a larger furnace. Warm air systems are designed for 120-130F air in the ducts and accept the loss as acceptable because they were designed with cheap fuel in mind. It's uncommon to find a very well insulated and sealed warm air system unless it is a modern heat pump setup. When using the fan to recirculate the wood heat it is only moving air at about say 70-80F, then these losses neutralize the gain if they are greater than 10%, which is very common in uninsulated ductwork.

ecocavalier02 · Nov 25, 2010

BeGreen said:
Sen. John Blutarsky said:

Why would you think that the furnace fan causes you to lose heat? I hear a lot of folks on this board who swear that this is the best way to circulate the heat. If it works and your furnace isn't kicking on, I think you have a winner.

Click to expand...

There are a some that claim this works, but generally it does not unless it's a very well insulated system. Forced air systems usually are inefficient. Most setups suffer from a fair amount of duct loss which was compensated by installing a larger furnace. Warm air systems are designed for 120-130F air in the ducts and accept the loss as acceptable because they were designed with cheap fuel in mind. It's uncommon to find a very well insulated and sealed warm air system unless it is a modern heat pump setup. When using the fan to recirculate the wood heat it is only moving air at about say 70-80F, then these losses neutralize the gain if they are greater than 10%, which is very common in uninsulated ductwork.

hes right i do duct for aliving. inless that duct is extremely insulated and its in a conditioned space its not going to do very well. dont know where his duct is but say its in a chase on the outside wall of the house and then runs into the attic for his upstairs zone there aint nothing but cold air coming out of that duct. that duct work is going to be freezing cold as well and will never heat up with 80 degree heat from the stove by the time it got to where its going itd be 50 60 degrees if that

awoodman · Nov 25, 2010

If their is a space above you're wall cabinets in the kitchen cut out the sheet rock and install perforated panels. This will let the heat pas from room to room instead of being trapped.

69911e · Nov 25, 2010

If your goal is to heat the downstairs more even, I would definitely create a clockwise airflow pattern to avoid the air going up the stairs as it will tend to.
This would ideally be cold air from the foyer directed to the stove using a fan down low. If this is not possible you could try 2 fans as high as possible at both dining room doorways to create the CW flow.

I would not use the duct work to circulate unless is in within the insulated envelope. ie outside walls or attic space are generally considered uninsulated.

Dakotas Dad · Nov 25, 2010

BeGreen said:
Sen. John Blutarsky said:

Why would you think that the furnace fan causes you to lose heat? I hear a lot of folks on this board who swear that this is the best way to circulate the heat. If it works and your furnace isn't kicking on, I think you have a winner.

Click to expand...

There are a some that claim this works, but generally it does not unless it's a very well insulated system. Forced air systems usually are inefficient. Most setups suffer from a fair amount of duct loss which was compensated by installing a larger furnace. Warm air systems are designed for 120-130F air in the ducts and accept the loss as acceptable because they were designed with cheap fuel in mind. It's uncommon to find a very well insulated and sealed warm air system unless it is a modern heat pump setup. When using the fan to recirculate the wood heat it is only moving air at about say 70-80F, then these losses neutralize the gain if they are greater than 10%, which is very common in uninsulated ductwork.

Some people report good luck with it, most don't, I think just like the rest of wood heat, each and every installation is different.
I experimented a bit last year after my install, moving the heat with the fan idea didn't seem to work..

The air coming off my heat pump coils was 127 °F , and around 91 °F at the living room registers and 79 °F at the farthest upstairs bedroom ducts. My house was built in '96 and is pretty well insulated. Air entering the return registers down stairs at floor level was about 65.

When running the wood stove the air lost nearly as much heat in the ducts, but started out cooler to begin with, around 73 °F. While it did "move" the air better than convection, the heat loss was noticeable. The upstairs ran 10 degrees or so cooler with the heat pumps fan moving the air, vs convection.

My duct work runs through the unfinished basement and in the attic.

raybonz · Nov 25, 2010

Hello Joe
If your stove was located where your stand fan is now and the stove had a blower I think things would be different.. Ceiling fans would take care of the rest from there.. At least this is what I think.. The stove is located is such an extreme corner location I can't imagine how you could move heated air so far a distance.. Location is a big factor when attempting to heat your entire home with a woodstove.. My home is 2 story 1632 sq. ft. and only one small room on the 1st floor at the base of the stairs doesn't get enough heat and we supplement that room with a small electric heater.. Even with a fan blowing the cool room air for 8 hrs. it only gets 2 degrees warmer...

Good Luck,
Ray

Backwoods Savage · Nov 25, 2010

How about trying a small table fan in the doorways of both of those doors blowing into the stove room. If that helps, then you might even try the pedestal fan still blowing towards the dining area. This might assist in moving the air even more.

joefrompa · Nov 25, 2010

Well that's not reassuring

Today is in the mid 30s and I've been running for about 16 hours straight (albeit with an almost dead overnight burn). I've had the blower on medium high, the stand fan on blowing out, and the ceiling fan on. We're cooking too, so there's heat going on there, but so far the main room is about 80 degrees (estimate) and the living room/dining room is about 68 (slightly cool, but nice feeling).

Upstairs is probably around 65 - chilly, but not cold.

I haven't had the oil run at all since yesterday at 4:30pm, and outside has been steadily below 40, so I'm pleased right now. I've also only had the stove cruising at 350-450 (stove top temp) - its not broiling at the moment.

One of the main things I want to accomplish is taking this family/kitchen room, which is roughly 400-500 square feet and gets HOT, and get the hot air OUT of here into the rest of the home. I don't mind if its at 75, but too often its getting hot while the room right next to it (foyer or dining room) is in the upper 60s and staying there.

I'm going to try blowing cold air in from the dining room using my stand fan placed against the far dining room wall blowing straight into the kitchen. The upstairs is by no means cooking, so I have no fear about getting too much hot air rising into the foyer. Upstairs hasn't cracked 70 yet based upon feel.

Joe

Backwoods Savage · Nov 25, 2010

Joe, the problem with using that stand fan is that the cool air is all down towards the floor.

If you think about the natural flow if air, the outside walls are the coolest and warm air rises. So, the cool air flows down along the outside walls and then tends to go towards the middle of the room before rising once again. By using the stand fan, you are not moving that coolest part of the air. You will also get better results by placing the fan at least close to the doorway. In addition, placing the fan against the far wall means the fan will have to work harder to draw the air as it won't draw from straight behind the fan so much as it will draw from the sides. Put simply, you will not get as good of circulation placing the fan against the wall.

jotul8e2 · Nov 25, 2010

Possibly the biggest issue is being overlooked here. You are likely losing heat out that bay window and the patio door faster than it can be replaced. I had a cold bedroom that I assumed could not be heated easily due to its distance from the stove. However, I put up a cellular shade over the five foot window and suddenly the room became warm.

Every square foot of even the best window passes at least 10 times as much heat as a square foot of insulated wall.

Dune · Nov 25, 2010

joefrompa said:
Well that's not reassuring

Today is in the mid 30s and I've been running for about 16 hours straight (albeit with an almost dead overnight burn). I've had the blower on medium high, the stand fan on blowing out, and the ceiling fan on. We're cooking too, so there's heat going on there, but so far the main room is about 80 degrees (estimate) and the living room/dining room is about 68 (slightly cool, but nice feeling).

Upstairs is probably around 65 - chilly, but not cold.

I haven't had the oil run at all since yesterday at 4:30pm, and outside has been steadily below 40, so I'm pleased right now. I've also only had the stove cruising at 350-450 (stove top temp) - its not broiling at the moment.

One of the main things I want to accomplish is taking this family/kitchen room, which is roughly 400-500 square feet and gets HOT, and get the hot air OUT of here into the rest of the home. I don't mind if its at 75, but too often its getting hot while the room right next to it (foyer or dining room) is in the upper 60s and staying there.

I'm going to try blowing cold air in from the dining room using my stand fan placed against the far dining room wall blowing straight into the kitchen. The upstairs is by no means cooking, so I have no fear about getting too much hot air rising into the foyer. Upstairs hasn't cracked 70 yet based upon feel.

Joe

Seriously, try a small fan on the floor in the doorway between the dining room and kitchen. This is the most important fan. Then, if you feel more is needed, place another small fan, on the floor, infront of the baywindow, blowing into the dining room. I can almost garantee this will help immencely. The stand up fan cold the be used, if more effect is desired, blowing from the center of the kitchen, inclined slightly upward, into the foyer doorway. I don't think you even need the standup fan. What might be helpful though, would be a couple thermometers, so you can moniter
changes more acurately. I would try it this way first, and reverse the direction later if need be.

joefrompa · Nov 25, 2010

Thanks guys. A few additional notes: I will stop using the stand fan for the time being. I have it angled up towards the ceiling to blow hot air away from the stove and towards the dining room entry (which, by th eway, is only standard door size...not a large entry).

Earlier today, I placed a small floor fan at the base of the floor in the entryway of the foyer and living room pointed into the kitchen and put on high. Well, that seemed to do alot. The family room/kitchen probably cooled down by 5 degrees within 30-45 minutes, and the rest of the house seemed to even out.

Its 37 degrees outside right now and my draft sucks....my wood won't stay aflame unless the door is cracked....but by keeping it between 300-450 all day, the house is now toasty around 69 degrees on the thermostat and feeling like it.

begreen · Nov 25, 2010

Good to hear that the floor fan is working. You can put it on low speed and it should still work fine. (And will be a lot quieter.) At 37, the draft should be decent. Time to add 2-3 ft of pipe on that short flue. Is this batch of wood a little damper too?

DBoon · Nov 25, 2010

I agree with jotel8e2 - you have to minimize the heat loss from the rooms farthest away from the stove. You've got some big windows there - At best they are R-4. This is too much heat loss given the square footage you probably have. Get good insulated curtains for here that you can close at nighttime. The curtains need to have a good seal all the way around to hold the cold air inside. But still, when it gets colder outside, those rooms will be colder.

You might want to consider doing what I just finished - zoning the heating system so you have two thermostats and two ducting routes. This doesn't allow you to eliminate use of oil, but you can avoid having to push the stove too hard in one place and making it too hot there and never getting enough heat to the rooms farther from the stove.

aaronl41 · Nov 25, 2010

My home is about 70 feet long, all one level and my wood stove is at one end of the house and the bedrooms are at the other. With the thermostat about halfway in between. My "stove room" gets about 80* while my living room (where the theromostat is) gets to 70 to 75. The bedrooms only get to the mid 60's at best, but i do like it cooler in the bedroom. I have a blower on my stove with a celing fan in that room as well. Then I take a box fan and put it about 5ft in front of the stove and blow the air towards the other end of the house. Then in the living room I put another box fan and blow air towards the bedrooms. With out the second box fan the bedrooms will not break 60. I'm going to try blowing the cold air toward the stove and see how that works, I never thought of doing it that way.

begreen · Nov 25, 2010

I think you will be pleasantly surprised. The results can become apparent pretty quickly. I just did a test with our upstairs bedroom. Heat pools nicely at the top of the stairs in the hallway, but doesn't make it as well into our bedroom. It is the same temp in the hall as in the livingroom, 74F. The master bedroom is 65F today, 35F outside. It has a high peaked ceiling which is where most of the heat is. I put a table fan about 4ft back from the doorway facing the hallway and turned it on low. It took about 15 minutes to raise the bedroom temp 7 degrees at bed level.

Help me get the heat to more of my home

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