Big E Big question

BBennett · Nov 27, 2010

Hello All
So i wanna clear up a question I have. I just purchased a Breckwell Big E Pellet stove. I am installing in my basement. I wanted to put it next to my furnace, ( meeting all clearance req) but I cant put it near the wall as it would be obstructed by the chimney and Furnace. My question is with the horizontal EVL. According to the brochure my max horizontal evl is 10 feet. I have a 90deg T with clean-out out of the stove to a 5' vertical, topped with a 90 deg, to a 7' horizontal. after that I need 2 90 deg elbows with a short 2' horizontal to exit the house. According to my "brochure that is 29' horizontal evl. ( 90 deg elbow = 5 evl x4 and 9' horizontal evl..)Is that right? I guess my problem is that if you use 2 90 elbows then you cant run 1 piece of horizontal.
My other option is to use 2 45 deg elbows (at 3 evl each) plus the 7 ' horizontal ( which now becomes pitched about 3' in the 7' run) and then the 2' exiting the house. but i still need a 90 to go up the side of the house.

I cant see only being able to use 2 90 deg elbows in an installation. and no horizontal pipe?

If I move the stove to the wall then the furnace is right in front of it and I don't see it circulating through the basement. I have no other location to exit the house due to proximity of windows, porches, propane tank, etc.

Thanks in advance.

captkirk5858 · Nov 27, 2010

Welcome to the Forum. You have found a Great place to get answers to your questions. Post pictures when you get her all set-up...

imacman · Nov 27, 2010

IMO, your proposed vent set-up is going to cause you problems. It's too long horizontally, it has too many bends, and you didn't even mention about going to 4" pipe, which your owners manual specifically states should be done, and your vertical is only 5' instead of the recommended 8' by Breckwell:

"• Use 4” pipe if you have more than 15 feet of equivalent vent length.
• Horizontal runs shall not exceed 10’ of EVL.
• Recommended vertical runs to be a minimum of 8’."

From what I can figure, you actually have an EVL of over 30!! WAY too much, and will most likely cause performance problems, along with the nightmare of all that horizontal pipe building-up ash inside.

IMO, your asking for problems & poor performance with this set-up.

EDIT: Forgot to ask....is this basement finished or un-finished?

BBennett · Nov 27, 2010

Sorry I forgot to mention that I am using 4" pipe, and I will meet the req for vertical, i have room on the exterior to run vertical. its the horizontal that is going to give me the problem,
So, I guess my question is does 90 deg elbows and 45 deg elbows count towards horizontal evl or just overall evl? and does a a pipe coming out of a 45 count towards vertical or horizontal evl ?

thanks

AndrewChurchill · Nov 27, 2010

Here's a picture of my Big E venting setup. I only have a 4' vertical rise and I'm not having problems.

imacman · Nov 27, 2010

BBennett said:
Sorry I forgot to mention that I am using 4" pipe, and I will meet the req for vertical, i have room on the exterior to run vertical. its the horizontal that is going to give me the problem,
So, I guess my question is does 90 deg elbows and 45 deg elbows count towards horizontal evl or just overall evl? and does a a pipe coming out of a 45 count towards vertical or horizontal evl ?

thanks

AFAIK, there is no such thing as "horizontal EVL"....it's ALL EVL. The elbows would count the same whether they are in a vertical alignment, or on their sides, IMO. And although you say you can add another 5' to the vertical to meet that requirement, remember that will add ANOTHER 2.5 to the overall EVL....my calculations has you getting close to an EVL of 35 !!!

This set-up sounds too complex for what you're trying to do....the exhaust flow may be marginal when clean, but once ash starts forming in all the horizontal pipe, performance is going to start going down quickly.

And you didn't answer the question of whether this is going into an unfinished or finished basement.

But hey, it's your stove....I think you're trying to convince yourself that this will work, when all the factors involved indicate problems ahead. I hope you don't go ahead with this and in the future come on the board and ask why the stove is not working, or working poorly.

BBennett · Nov 27, 2010

This stove will be installed in an unfinished basement. not sure what difference that makes. thanks imacman for the info.
Of course i am tryinng to make this work i dropped a bunch of cash and dont want to waste it.

i recieved some false info from the company i bought it from. so that is why i am a little unsure of all this.
imacman you said there is no such thing as horizontal evl but in my manual it talks about max horizontal evl @ 10'. and min vertical evl @8' So to me that says they are different.
it also giives equivilants to horizontal pipe, vertical pipe, 90 deg, 45 deg elbows. i just didnt know what the 90 or 45 elbows count towards ,other than total. Total evl dictating wether to use 3 or 4" pipe. it doesnt state in the manual anywhere about not exceeding a max evl. is there a general rule of thumb as far as a total evl?

krooser · Nov 27, 2010

Most folks have problems heating an unfinished basement with a pellet stove... the cold walls suck up all the heat. A pellet stove is a space heater... you should put the stove where you want the heat. If that's the basement, it will need some insulation to allow the stove to do it's job.

J-takeman here on the board has one and it heats fine but his stove is the size of a jet engine.... good luck.

imacman · Nov 27, 2010

BBennett said:
This stove will be installed in an unfinished basement. not sure what difference that makes. thanks imacman for the info.
Of course i am tryinng to make this work i dropped a bunch of cash and dont want to waste it. i recieved some false info from the company i bought it from. so that is why i am a little unsure of all this.
imacman you said there is no such thing as horizontal evl but in my manual it talks about max horizontal evl @ 10'. and min vertical evl @8' So to me that says they are different.
it also giives equivilants to horizontal pipe, vertical pipe, 90 deg, 45 deg elbows. i just didnt know what the 90 or 45 elbows count towards ,other than total. Total evl dictating wether to use 3 or 4" pipe. it doesnt state in the manual anywhere about not exceeding a max evl. is there a general rule of thumb as far as a total evl?

OK, never heard EVL listed as horiz. or vert., but it all gets added together in the end. IMO, I would keep this to the absolute minimum you can.

As for total EVL, the general rule of thumb is that once you reach an EVL of 15, you go to 4" pipe. You're going to be more than double that.....that's why I'd be concerned.

As Krooser said above about this going into an unfinished basement, now not only are you fighting the long pipe problem, you are also going to be using a LOT of the heat the stove DOES make to heat the basement walls & floor. The stove should be in or near the actual rooms you want to heat.

Sorry to say this to you, but this whole set-up is not looking good.

BBennett · Nov 27, 2010

How much difference does it make that the basement is below grade?

jtakeman · Nov 27, 2010

Somewhere I saw that Verticle EVL was .5/foot and Horizontal was 1/foot.
90º and Tees=5 EVL
45º=2.5 EVL

It may have been in a pipe install catalog. I just don't remember where though. Sorry age factors.

imacman · Nov 27, 2010

BBennett said:
How much difference does it make that the basement is below grade?

None that I know of. There is no insulation stopping the cold walls from soaking up the heat.

Why are you installing the stove in the basement? Do you have room anywhere upstairs to put the stove?

captkirk5858 · Nov 27, 2010

imacman said:
BBennett said:

How much difference does it make that the basement is below grade?

Click to expand...

None that I know of. There is no insulation stopping the cold walls from soaking up the heat.

Why are you installing the stove in the basement? Do you have room anywhere upstairs to put the stove?

I have the SAME stove installed in an unfinished basment. if you really want to heat the upper floors you will not get what you are looking for unless you want to run that stove at a higher setting. and then it will be a struggle. it's just not designed for that. I just wanted to keep my under the house unit to keep the room above 60*...

I agree with the others... do you have a somewhere upstairs to put this stove to get the best bang for your buck?

(if you notice my Sig. i have a another stove in the living space)

SmokeyTheBear · Nov 28, 2010

The only thing that being below grade buys you is the the temperature differential will be far less than if it was just poured concrete above ground level.

You really need that basement to be insulated and finished. If you don't want to finish it at least insulated such that the insulation goes four foot below grade level.

All surfaces in a house will have a heat loss that is proportional to the area of the surface, its conductivity factor, and the temperature difference between the outside and inside of the surface.

Thus if the the temperature you want the inside to be is 70 and the outside is 60 the difference being 10 degrees and the outside temperature goes to 50 your stove will have to generate twice the amount of heat it did when the outside temperature was 60.

The ground on the outside of the basement wall stops the temperature from getting down to the outside temperature as it acts as a rather good insulator, however it doesn't prevent the outside temperature from being a factor.

If you can double or better the insulation value of the basement walls it will go a long way to making the load on the stove much less. Substantially raising that value is easy since the good old concrete/brick is a very poor insulator.

I'm heating my place with a pellet stove in the basement, but the basement is finished.

On the piping you are just making a problem for yourself. Isn't there a way to just go up instead or of placing the stove closer to a wall?

BBennett · Nov 28, 2010

I unfortunately have only 1 place upstairs to put it and the wife says NO ( she is worried about our 2 yr old. as it would be in our living room.) so the upstairs is out. But I probably consider another unit or moving this one in a few yrs once our kid is older.
I have all wood floors through out. The floors are uninsulated so their temp goes as the temp in basement goes, with Oil forced air heat( so it gets cold once the heat shuts off,) The location of the stove will be in proximity to my air ducts. So the plan is to warm up the basement and the floors above, and to circulate some of the warm air through the duct work.
To Smokey, the closer i move the unit to the wall the more obstructed it will become, and the closer it gets to the washer and dryer. its a tricky area, of course...why would it be easy or straight forward, I guess i could go exit out one other place but that is within 2 feet of my propane tank... but i dont think i want to exit that close to my tank.
After speaking to the owner of the company (who does all the installs for his company)I bought this from, I will be able to reduce my EVL to about 20' total. He felt very confident I would be alright with the new configuration we discussed. which removes all but one 90 deg and adds two 45 deg's and uses a diagonal rise to my exit point, instead of a horizontal run.

SmokeyTheBear · Nov 28, 2010

BBennett said:
I unfortunately have only 1 place upstairs to put it and the wife says NO ( she is worried about our 2 yr old. as it would be in our living room.) so the upstairs is out. But I probably consider another unit or moving this one in a few yrs once our kid is older.
I have all wood floors through out. The floors are uninsulated so their temp goes as the temp in basement goes, with Oil forced air heat( so it gets cold once the heat shuts off,) The location of the stove will be in proximity to my air ducts. So the plan is to warm up the basement and the floors above, and to circulate some of the warm air through the duct work.
To Smokey, the closer i move the unit to the wall the more obstructed it will become, and the closer it gets to the washer and dryer. its a tricky area, of course...why would it be easy or straight forward, I guess i could go exit out one other place but that is within 2 feet of my propane tank... but i dont think i want to exit that close to my tank.
After speaking to the owner of the company (who does all the installs for his company)I bought this from, I will be able to reduce my EVL to about 20' total. He felt very confident I would be alright with the new configuration we discussed. which removes all but one 90 deg and adds two 45 deg's and uses a diagonal rise to my exit point, instead of a horizontal run.

I hope you understand that you can not attach that stove to the duct work.

If it were me I'd be looking very closely at straight up or relocating other things and getting closer to the walls (and by up I'm talking the vent not the stove).

In any event I'd suggest you talk with j-takeman via PM as he had a Big E in his basement. He can give you a very good idea if what you are attempting to do stands a chance of doing the job.

captkirk5858 · Nov 28, 2010

BBennett said:
I unfortunately have only 1 place upstairs to put it and the wife says NO ( she is worried about our 2 yr old. as it would be in our living room.) so the upstairs is out. But I probably consider another unit or moving this one in a few yrs once our kid is older.
I have all wood floors through out. The floors are uninsulated so their temp goes as the temp in basement goes, with Oil forced air heat( so it gets cold once the heat shuts off,) The location of the stove will be in proximity to my air ducts. So the plan is to warm up the basement and the floors above, and to circulate some of the warm air through the duct work.
To Smokey, the closer i move the unit to the wall the more obstructed it will become, and the closer it gets to the washer and dryer. its a tricky area, of course...why would it be easy or straight forward, I guess i could go exit out one other place but that is within 2 feet of my propane tank... but i dont think i want to exit that close to my tank.
After speaking to the owner of the company (who does all the installs for his company)I bought this from, I will be able to reduce my EVL to about 20' total. He felt very confident I would be alright with the new configuration we discussed. which removes all but one 90 deg and adds two 45 deg's and uses a diagonal rise to my exit point, instead of a horizontal run.

My Question to you is, How do you plan to use the existing forced air ducts? I too have the hardwoord floors. and as the temp dropped here, it was a stable floor temp in my living space. but the Kero heater still kicked on. and the second story of my 1500sqft house was COLD if I turned the Kero heater off.

BBennett · Nov 28, 2010

SmokeyTheBear said:
BBennett said:

I unfortunately have only 1 place upstairs to put it and the wife says NO ( she is worried about our 2 yr old. as it would be in our living room.) so the upstairs is out. But I probably consider another unit or moving this one in a few yrs once our kid is older.
I have all wood floors through out. The floors are uninsulated so their temp goes as the temp in basement goes, with Oil forced air heat( so it gets cold once the heat shuts off,) The location of the stove will be in proximity to my air ducts. So the plan is to warm up the basement and the floors above, and to circulate some of the warm air through the duct work.
To Smokey, the closer i move the unit to the wall the more obstructed it will become, and the closer it gets to the washer and dryer. its a tricky area, of course...why would it be easy or straight forward, I guess i could go exit out one other place but that is within 2 feet of my propane tank... but i dont think i want to exit that close to my tank.
After speaking to the owner of the company (who does all the installs for his company)I bought this from, I will be able to reduce my EVL to about 20' total. He felt very confident I would be alright with the new configuration we discussed. which removes all but one 90 deg and adds two 45 deg's and uses a diagonal rise to my exit point, instead of a horizontal run.

Click to expand...

I hope you understand that you can not attach that stove to the duct work.

If it were me I'd be looking very closely at straight up or relocating other things and getting closer to the walls (and by up I'm talking the vent not the stove).

In any event I'd suggest you talk with j-takeman via PM as he had a Big E in his basement. He can give you a very good idea if what you are attempting to do stands a chance of doing the job.

thanks Smokey i will pm him, I am aware that I cant hook it up directly, my idea was to incorporate a "range hood" type of set up over the the stove, going into a my air duct with a vent door that would be closed by the force of the airflow from the furnace blower when it kicks on. Otherwise sitting in a normally open state to the stove.
To Samm6
I have a vent fan to use to pull air from the basement through the second floor air duct, Also I was planning on moving my t-stat to the second floor, and closing a few of the redundant vents on the first floor.

SmokeyTheBear · Nov 28, 2010

How strong is the furnace blower and are you OAKing the Big E?

If the furnace blower is quite strong you could wind up causing burn and other issues with the Big E if it is not on an OAK.

captkirk5858 · Nov 28, 2010

BBennett said:
SmokeyTheBear said:

BBennett said:

I unfortunately have only 1 place upstairs to put it and the wife says NO ( she is worried about our 2 yr old. as it would be in our living room.) so the upstairs is out. But I probably consider another unit or moving this one in a few yrs once our kid is older.
I have all wood floors through out. The floors are uninsulated so their temp goes as the temp in basement goes, with Oil forced air heat( so it gets cold once the heat shuts off,) The location of the stove will be in proximity to my air ducts. So the plan is to warm up the basement and the floors above, and to circulate some of the warm air through the duct work.
To Smokey, the closer i move the unit to the wall the more obstructed it will become, and the closer it gets to the washer and dryer. its a tricky area, of course...why would it be easy or straight forward, I guess i could go exit out one other place but that is within 2 feet of my propane tank... but i dont think i want to exit that close to my tank.
After speaking to the owner of the company (who does all the installs for his company)I bought this from, I will be able to reduce my EVL to about 20' total. He felt very confident I would be alright with the new configuration we discussed. which removes all but one 90 deg and adds two 45 deg's and uses a diagonal rise to my exit point, instead of a horizontal run.

Click to expand...

I hope you understand that you can not attach that stove to the duct work.

If it were me I'd be looking very closely at straight up or relocating other things and getting closer to the walls (and by up I'm talking the vent not the stove).

In any event I'd suggest you talk with j-takeman via PM as he had a Big E in his basement. He can give you a very good idea if what you are attempting to do stands a chance of doing the job.

Click to expand...

I am in Agreement with Bear. Contact Jay..... sounds like you have alot of things in place or in work. and it might just work. IDK. Jay could definatly give you some pointers of how his set-up was!! good luck and pics are worth a thousand words

thanks Smokey i will pm him, I am aware that I cant hook it up directly, my idea was to incorporate a "range hood" type of set up over the the stove, going into a my air duct with a vent door that would be closed by the force of the airflow from the furnace blower when it kicks on. Otherwise sitting in a normally open state to the stove.
To Samm6
I have a vent fan to use to pull air from the basement through the second floor air duct, Also I was planning on moving my t-stat to the second floor, and closing a few of the redundant vents on the first floor.

BBennett · Nov 28, 2010

SmokeyTheBear said:
How strong is the furnace blower and are you OAKing the Big E?

If the furnace blower is quite strong you could wind up causing burn and other issues with the Big E if it is not on an OAK.

Could you explain OAKing ?
The furnace blower would not actually be circulating the heat from the Big E( the duct work from the basement that I would add would come into the main feed with a vent door that would be held open until the furnace kicked on then would close allowing the forced air system to operate normally.) just using the ducts for some radiant heat circulation with a duct fan in the 2nd floor feed duct, and maybe a small fan in the feed from the basement collector.

SmokeyTheBear · Nov 28, 2010

BBennett said:
SmokeyTheBear said:

How strong is the furnace blower and are you OAKing the Big E?

If the furnace blower is quite strong you could wind up causing burn and other issues with the Big E if it is not on an OAK.

Click to expand...

Could you explain OAKing ?
The furnace blower would not actually be circulating the heat from the Big E( the duct work from the basement that I would add would come into the main feed with a vent door that would be held open until the furnace kicked on then would close allowing the forced air system to operate normally.) just using the ducts for some radiant heat circulation with a duct fan in the 2nd floor feed duct, and maybe a small fan in the feed from the basement collector.

An OAK is an outside air kit, they are used to supply combustion air from outside of the building.

When there are large air moving or using systems in a building it is possible for those systems to overpower the relatively small combustion blowers leading to a lack of burn air for the stove and/or even causing smoke to exit the combustion air intake.

It is very easy to find yourself in such a negative pressure situation depending on fans in use and how tight the house is.

BBennett · Nov 28, 2010

Oh yea i do have and will be using an outside air kit. Sorry didn't get the abbreviation. thanks for the patience.

barbcole · Nov 28, 2010

Have you taken your wife to see a stove in operation?

Obviously you and your wife know the particulars of your situation best, but maybe she is more familiar with the wood stoves I remember than pellet stoves.

While it still requires precaution, touching an operating pellet stove is not like touching an old wood stove. (At least my model)

Maybe she could be convinced on a safe arrangement that allows you to move the stove to the family room. With some planning, I am comfortable with a child's safety in my family room with the stove operating.

jtakeman · Nov 28, 2010

BBennet, I got your PM. But I'll post here just in case someone down the road tries this.

Your in for an up hill climb with the basement install and no insulation. I take it you just want to warm the basement but transfer most of the heat upstairs. Short of connecting duct work to the stove. I have seen some stoves ducted into the furnace plenum and work pretty well. Using the hood is the next best. But you lose lots of heat. I am using the hood to collect my heat, But I don't have a furnace so. I do plan on increasing my blower on the Omega and ducting right to the stove. I need to increase the blower to reduce the heat from the stove as it is too hot to duct upstairs. I am going to double the blower and run it faster to cool the air on the convection of the stove to about 100ºF. Any hotter and it might burn the toes on the floor vents.

You will need to add some insulation to the basement walls. I used the foam boards on the cement. I stuffed fiberglass in the eves and the knee walls with the most I could. It helped much with heat loss.

How big an area is the basement? Just to get a feel for the install.

Now for the stove>

The bigE was dubbed a furnace when I bought it and was told I could hook duct to it. But after a year and a half of struggling in the cold I upgrade to the beast I have now. The bigE isn't big on BTU output and the highest setting is only allowed to be used for a few hours and or you will over heat it. So you may need to increase the blower CFM so you can run it maxed out if need be. I'll pass along info if you need it.

The 2nd issue is the high/low feature on the bigE is useless but it could be handy. But becuase you need to adjust the damper for each setting. It needs a lower draft setting on low and when you go to high. You have to be there to increase the draft setting. Well there is a fix I am working on! It will require a new control board to make it work. The board will also make it so you only need to set the damper once and as you chance speeds the Combustion blower will adjust to each heat setting. This will give you high/low access which helps in the cold and saves the igniter. The board is a plug in but I am not finish tweaking yet. So well have to put it on hold.

I know there expensive but what we both really need is a furnace to connect duct work to or sister to the furnace. By the time I am done playing I probably could have bought mine and not had to insulate the basement.

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