NEW ALDERLEA T5, LOW BURN, WATER IN IRON WALLS AND BRICKS?

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Take some close up shots of that wood your burning and post them. the wood that has not actually been burned yet, off the stack).
There are enough folks with that stove that are very happy with it, So no offense meant, but it ain't the stove.
 
DALE SR 3 said:
madison said:
1. Moisture from bricks goes away after the first cpl burns, and does not return.
2. Agree with moisture in wood AND closing the air control too much, AND too soon.
3. A cabin installation of a convection type stove may not be the best unit, AND AFTER owning a "smoke dragon" radiant beast will lead to these observations.
4. The picture labled "kindling" looks like fresh yard waste to me.
5. Draft with the current setup maybe less than ideal, right angles dumping into an exterior intermittantly use (cabin) chimney.
~~~~~~~~~~`
Stack, store, split wood better, and in the meantime, expect to leave the air control in the more open position. Get everything stove, chimney hot then SLOWLY start monkeying with the air control
Click to expand...

1We have no problem burning same wood from the same stack in other stoves, the stove did not even burn the pressed wood brought in by installer!

2. MY PARENTS AND I TAKE AFRONT TO THIS STATEMENT. Our 120 acres of Northern MI hardwood-Ash,Cherry, Maple, Ironwood, Beech and Hickory should not be considered yard-waste by any means. We stack firewood length logs to season for a minimum of 1 year, these stacks are covered with a piece of tin to keep rain off of top. Sides are left open to air. After a year the logs are split and then stored in a enclosed but airy woodshed until sold used by us at home or used at cabin.

3 We start the stove slow to warm up everything slow before we even think of closing the damper. We usually wait until after a reload when a bed of embers help the logs burn with a more closed damper at least we did when we had the old stove. The new stove did not work from the start.
Click to expand...

I'm sorry, but firewood will not season well in log length form. How long is it actually split and stacked in the dry before you use it? That's the key measurement.
 
He wrote "firewood length logs", so I'm assuming he means splits the length you would use to put in the stove. I thought the same as you when I first read it, though!!

As others have said Dale, it isn't the stove. Any stove will burn with the right hookup and right fuel. You just have to troubleshoot to find your answer. Heck, my buddy has an old "All Nighter" wood stove in his garage ( I mean workshop), and once it was hooked up correctly (added length to his chimney) that stove burns good. So once the T5 has the correct setup, the stove will burn well!!
 
I am reading it as the wood is bucked to length, but left in the round for one year, and after that time he says they are finally split. I've only had wood season well in the round ONE time, and that was with some Eastern White Pine that sat in the dry in the old hay barn for the entire hot arse summer before being split. You can try that with hardwoods, but it just doesn't work well at all.
 
Dale,

Nothing personal, but it sounds like you have already made up your mind that its the stove that is at fault - yet you are asking for the forums help.

The very experienced members here are doing their best to help based on the info they gave. You can either try their suggestions - check that chimney draft and get a few pieces of kiln dried.

OR

You can just go toss the stove.


Its your choice. Crying offense at people trying to give you honest and free help solves nothing.
 
In the Alderlea manual there are 4 cures listed for the "Wood won't burn" issue:

1. Check outside air supply for obstruction;
2. Check that room air cover is removed;
3. Chimney plugged or restricted, -inspect and clean;
4. Chimney oversized or otherwise unsuitable, -consult Dealer.

For #2 I'm assuming they mean that there is a 4" knockout at the back of the ash pan assembly, this is where I have my outside air connected - I didn't see my installers remove anything here but maybe I just didn't see them do it.

As discussed it's a good probability it's #4....but at the end it should say - consult a dealer who doesn't advise you to run the stove wide open with a full load of wood for 24 hours to cure the brick. They should not be allowed to be a Pacific Energy Dealer for ridiculous suggestion.
 
DALE SR 3 said:
1We have no problem burning same wood from the same stack in other stoves, the stove did not even burn the pressed wood brought in by installer!

2. MY PARENTS AND I TAKE AFRONT TO THIS STATEMENT. Our 120 acres of Northern MI hardwood-Ash,Cherry, Maple, Ironwood, Beech and Hickory should not be considered yard-waste by any means. We stack firewood length logs to season for a minimum of 1 year, these stacks are covered with a piece of tin to keep rain off of top. Sides are left open to air. After a year the logs are split and then stored in a enclosed but airy woodshed until sold used by us at home or used at cabin.

3 We start the stove slow to warm up everything slow before we even think of closing the damper. We usually wait until after a reload when a bed of embers help the logs burn with a more closed damper at least we did when we had the old stove. The new stove did not work from the start.
Click to expand...

1. Indeed, there is a difference in burning an EPA stoves.
2 Sorry, no offense meant, I have picked up and sawed branches from around the yard, and, they don't burn great when unseasoned, "kindling" to me is not 1-2" branches.
3. A couple of your pictures show a pretty good blaze, going, so I am not sure what you mean by "the new stove did not work from the start" -- but in your original post, there is a statement "The next day we went to check on excessive level of embers and found huge hard black pieces of warm but intact pressed wood under embers. We even found kindling still intact under the embers.see cinders picture."

So I am curious if the installer and yourself fired the thing up, you leave the cabin, and you returned the next day after burning the stove with the air wide open and those hunks of "kindling" were still in the box? If yes, the wood you are selling is not ready for burning , the moisture reader is a piece of crap, and possibly a marginal draft. And I can't believe that you would leave a newly installed stove fired up blazing with the air wide open. Something is not right.
 
Wet wood imo. You need firewood that has been split and stacked for a minimum of 1 year for decent results in an EPA stove. The older pre EPA stoves were more forgiving with less than dry wood because you could let in much more air to the fire.
 
Dale, can you do a quick visual check on something? Your dealer should have removed the air intake knockout. If they are not used to installing PE stoves, they may have missed this. It would be good to check. An easy test is to just pull out the ash pan. Does the stove suddenly "perk up" and burn more vigorously with the air control open? While the pan is out, use a flashlight to look at the back, bottom of the ash pan box. There should be a 4" hole back there. If not, and the stove responds to the pan being removed, that is a problem.

From the manual:
2. Room air supply - Remove the 4" knockout from the ash box enclosure. The stove
will now draw its air from the room through this opening and into the firebox
intake.
 
learnin to burn said:
I don't know much about the T5 so this might seem like a dumb question. Is there perhaps a knock out for the 4 inch air inlet on the ash pan or in the bottom of the stove that wasn't removed? My regency had 1 which I didn't realize until I had the same issue. Took it out and all was fine.
Click to expand...
Some Quadrafire users have reported same story. (And maybe others too. QF is the only modern stove I've had.)
Following the "lack of air" possibility a bit more....Compare the photo of unburned wood with charcoal making.

BTW folks...take note that the OP has stated that he has been using 2 other EPA stoves in the family, using wood from the same pile. So he knows what he's doing, and the wood is OK.
 
Dale

I didn't see it mentioned regarding chimney height. The manual states a minimum chimney height of 15' from the base of the appliance.

If this is exposed exterior double wall pipe you may need more.

Is the "secondary air shelf" seated properly. I don't have this stove.

Best of luck.
 
BeGreen said:
Dale, can you do a quick visual check on something? Your dealer should have removed the air intake knockout. If they are not used to installing PE stoves, they may have missed this. It would be good to check. An easy test is to just pull out the ash pan. Does the stove suddenly "perk up" and burn more vigorously with the air control open? While the pan is out, use a flashlight to look at the back, bottom of the ash pan box. There should be a 4" hole back there. If not, and the stove responds to the pan being removed, that is a problem.

From the manual:
2. Room air supply - Remove the 4" knockout from the ash box enclosure. The stove
will now draw its air from the room through this opening and into the firebox
intake.
Click to expand...

Room air supply knockout is removed
 
The only distance I'll go into this discussion is that I have a brand-new stove out sitting in the bed of my pickup waiting for the vicious winds [and chill] and my flu illness to subside. Meanwhile, I've been reading the owner's manual. This stove is cast iron with a bunch of firebrick. This is a different make of stove than the OP's. However, firebrick is firebrick. This manual says that there can be moisture in the brick, to make the first few fires gentle so that the moisture will be gradually driven off. So, moisture in the brick is not the problem here, as the poster has had some fires in the stove and any moisture is long gone.

As to moisture in the iron, I think we all know that iron is not a big sponge and, again, any surface moisture will have been evaporated in a few minutes of the first burn.

So, it ain't moisture in the stove.
 
madison said:
DALE SR 3 said:
1We have no problem burning same wood from the same stack in other stoves, the stove did not even burn the pressed wood brought in by installer!

2. MY PARENTS AND I TAKE AFRONT TO THIS STATEMENT. Our 120 acres of Northern MI hardwood-Ash,Cherry, Maple, Ironwood, Beech and Hickory should not be considered yard-waste by any means. We stack firewood length logs to season for a minimum of 1 year, these stacks are covered with a piece of tin to keep rain off of top. Sides are left open to air. After a year the logs are split and then stored in a enclosed but airy woodshed until sold used by us at home or used at cabin.

3 We start the stove slow to warm up everything slow before we even think of closing the damper. We usually wait until after a reload when a bed of embers help the logs burn with a more closed damper at least we did when we had the old stove. The new stove did not work from the start.
Click to expand...

1. Indeed, there is a difference in burning an EPA stoves.
2 Sorry, no offense meant, I have picked up and sawed branches from around the yard, and, they don't burn great when unseasoned, "kindling" to me is not 1-2" branches.
3. A couple of your pictures show a pretty good blaze, going, so I am not sure what you mean by "the new stove did not work from the start" -- but in your original post, there is a statement "The next day we went to check on excessive level of embers and found huge hard black pieces of warm but intact pressed wood under embers. We even found kindling still intact under the embers.see cinders picture."

So I am curious if the installer and yourself fired the thing up, you leave the cabin, and you returned the next day after burning the stove with the air wide open and those hunks of "kindling" were still in the box? If yes, the wood you are selling is not ready for burning , the moisture reader is a piece of crap, and possibly a marginal draft. And I can't believe that you would leave a newly installed stove fired up blazing with the air wide open. Something is not right.
Click to expand...

WE have other EPA stoves and we use the same wood to fire those fireplaces and they work just fine. My embers go to light ash and I have a few inches of embers available for the all nighters.

The good blaze that is shown is when we were told to have the damper on HI with door closed, the fire was burning good above the logs in rear of firebox but no flames under the logs at rear. When we closed the damper down to mid level fire was at front only, with damper on L the flames just barely flickered even if the logs were fully engulfed and 5 inches of flaming embers below them minutes before and this occurred at very front of log.
The very first day the installer threw in alot of pressed wood chunks to light the fire and get it going quickly, the next day we found those unburned chunks under the embers of wood we burned the night he left, we also found the kindling that was used to start the fire. All events took place over a period of over a week time not just one day, numerous phone calls never returned,days wasted,wood wasted and who sits by the fireplace constantly. Yes I am asking for help and we are experienced with the new EPA stoves.
 
Room air supply knockout is removed
Click to expand...

Thanks Dale, that's one more variable we can eliminate. One thing you can discuss with your dealer is improving the draft by replacing the interior 90 elbow with a pair of 45s and a short diagonal connector. This will improve draft a bit without any exterior work. If they are coming out anyhow, it would be great for them to bring a 3-4' section of 7" pipe to temporarily test if that makes a sizeable improvement to draft.
 
ElgBurner said:
Dale

I didn't see it mentioned regarding chimney height. The manual states a minimum chimney height of 15' from the base of the appliance.

If this is exposed exterior double wall pipe you may need more.

Is the "secondary air shelf" seated properly. I don't have this stove.

Best of luck.
Click to expand...

From base to top of chimney it is 16'9"

The interior chimney goes up 4' into a 90 degree elbow back 3' where it then goes up a cinder block exterior chimney. The exterior chimney has a metal insert that measures 7" x7" square.
 
Did you confirm that the 3ft horiz. section is pitched uphill, at least 1/4" per ft. towards the chimney?
 
granpajohn said:
learnin to burn said:
I don't know much about the T5 so this might seem like a dumb question. Is there perhaps a knock out for the 4 inch air inlet on the ash pan or in the bottom of the stove that wasn't removed? My regency had 1 which I didn't realize until I had the same issue. Took it out and all was fine.
Click to expand...
Some Quadrafire users have reported same story. (And maybe others too. QF is the only modern stove I've had.)
Following the "lack of air" possibility a bit more....Compare the photo of unburned wood with charcoal making.

BTW folks...take note that the OP has stated that he has been using 2 other EPA stoves in the family, using wood from the same pile. So he knows what he's doing, and the wood is OK.
Click to expand...

Finally, someone believes me and our family, maybe now we can discuss possible other reasons for problem. I have 3 cords of wood at my house brought during summer from the wood shed at cabin from last year supply stored in my garage for burning this year at my house. It was cut from dead trees and split the previous year. So that makes it 2+ years split seasoned,dry storage, right.

I will try to get a photo of some wood later. The cabin is 250 miles away and we are not planning to get their for a few weeks yet. If there is snow on roof we will not be able to ad extensions to chimney.

If it does prove to be the chimney the installer ripped us off. He repaired and water sealed the chimney because a previous fireplace installer broke it at the house connection and also cracked it 4' up from the connection. We fired the 1st installer who swore and cussed at us when we told him he cracked the chimney. The installer should have noted that the chimney would not have worked with our fireplace and suggested a new approach. If we need a new chimney we are paying 3x the install price!
 
Dale, most of us believe you, but there's always a skeptic in the crowd. I don't think this is the stove. The questions are just crossing things off the list to narrow down the problem. Based on responses, I'm assuming that the stove is not the issue, nor is the wood. That leads us back to the flue. There is either leakage (cleanout door, thimble connection), poorly pitched horiz. connection, or the flue is too short to draw correctly, or a combo of these issues. I missed that this is in a cold cabin which could lead to balky starts, but all things are pointing to an issue with the flue. Given the history I can see how this would be very frustrating.
 
DALE SR 3 said:
If it does prove to be the chimney the installer ripped us off. He repaired and water sealed the chimney because a previous fireplace installer broke it at the house connection and also cracked it 4' up from the connection. We fired the 1st installer who swore and cussed at us when we told him he cracked the chimney. The installer should have noted that the chimney would not have worked with our fireplace and suggested a new approach. If we need a new chimney we are paying 3x the install price!
Click to expand...

Were any of these guys the first installer?
 

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Dale Sr., I’m familiar with the T5 as I have been burning with one for 2 years now. From what I gather I have to agree, with the others, in that your issues point towards a low draft. Most current stoves, of this size, are designed and tested with a 6” round metal chimney system. The recommended height of our system, from the bottom of the stove to the top, at a straight shot (no elbows), is a minimum of 15’ (if altitude is greater than 2000 ft this will be higher….but you’re in MI, so that’s moot). Adding 90 deg elbows to a chimney system is like throwing in a big restriction. A single 90 deg elbow can reduce the effectiveness a system by 3 – 5 ft. You, in a sense, have 2 90 deg turns thereby reducing the effective height of your chimney system by 6 to 10 feet. Using 2 45 deg elbows is less of a restriction than a 90.

Shortened effective system height + horizontal run + slightly oversized exterior chimney = a recipe for a poor performing stove
 
BeGreen said:
Did you confirm that the 3ft horiz. section is pitched uphill, at least 1/4" per ft. towards the chimney?
Click to expand...

Unable to confirm at this time, Cabin is located 250 miles away. We are trying to get to bottom of problem before we get to cabin in next few weeks. If snow is on roof we will not be able to add extensions. We can check for a tight ash clean out door though which is at very base of chimney.
 
Larry MOe or Curly should have realized that our 2- 90 degree elbows on our original stove would NOT work with the new stove. Larry, Moe should not have broken our chimney. Curly should not have FIXED and charged us for the fix of the broken chimney that is now seeming to be the culprit of the problem.

We can't use 45 degree elbows it would put us in the same nightmare construction scenario we were trying to avoid by using the original chimney.
The room addition was originally some sort of metal roofed carport and original owners of cabin just surrounded it with wood and put another roof over it and suspended ceiling inside. So we have a suspended ceiling and a metal roof and then the real roof to contend with for a vertical install. For a 45 degree install we still need to contend with the metal roof and then somehow get into the existing chimney.

To somewhat explain this here is a photo:
Blue is indication of suspended ceiling of family room
Green is approx. location of connection of horizontal pipe of fireplace to chimney
Red is indicating metal roof between roof and suspended panels, there is also 20 inches of insulation under the metal roof. Who knows what else we will find in this nightmare addition.
 

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Here are some images of our wood supply brought to our house from the woodshed supplying the cabin, my Dad, and us. Each tree or woodpile is divided to whoever needs it. The better wood with bark on it will be sold,my Dad will not sell wood that should have bark on but doesn't. We do NOT cut live trees for firewood only dead or fallen trees so after seasoning and during splitting the bark often comes off or is loose. We also do not sell wood that is pulpy on outside such as the cherry we take that stuff. All trees bucked to fireplace length logs (16"). For past 3 years now since we bought a splitter that sometimes works we have been splitting the logs prior to stacking the logs to season. It is easier than lifting a large log 2x. So the logs are seasoned as splits except those that are too small to split. Instructions state in manual for T5 - unsplit logs are preferred for extended overnight burns

According to Woodheat and DIY
A piece of dry firewood has cracks or checks in the end grain. Look for these when judging the quality of firewood.
But it's still a good idea to check over the wood: make sure you see cracks in the center of the logs, which is a telltale sign that the wood has lost a lot of moisture. The bark also gets loose as the firewood dries.
I can often start a fire with smaller cherry logs set on twigs and paper in my fireplace to a full burn in a few minutes with minimal smoke on a cold start with no embers.
At the cabin twigs and paper just smolder and smoke for several minutes on hot embers until I crack the door and throw in a match. The smoke goes up the chimney but rises more quickly and empties the firebox when I crack the door.

As you can see from the photos our wood is cracky:
 

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Maybe I missed the answer somewhere above, so humor me if I did. But how long is that wood split before you burn it?
 
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