convection vs blower?

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Thanks Jeremy. It definitely makes sense and I didn't doubt that there was a cooling affect on the stove. I just don't think that the reduction in heat caused by using a blower would be sufficient enough to affect the exhaust temps to the point that they deposited more creosote. I don't, and I doubt anybody who uses a blower has it running until the stove is good and hot. In my case I'll have the cat engaged at this point too. By that point the whole system should be operating at a level that you would have to introduce some extremely cold air via the blower to really see a significant decrease in effieciency.

Can you think of a way to determine the efficiency reduction? For instance in your second example (Stoves A and B), what do you think the difference in burn time would be? If it was a 3 hour difference then yeah you are really affecting it. If it was only 30 minutes then not that big of an effect?

Ah screw it...does it really matter? Blowers are good...period.
 
Oh and thanks VCBurner. I painted it Mojave Red with stove bright paint. Your's ain't to shabby either. I'm definitly jealous of your viewing window compared to my two little rectangular ones. Unfortunately, the windows are impossible to keep clean enough to have a good view of the flames. I got that picture by messing with the iso and f stop on my camera. But for 1983 standards I think it was ahead of the other box stoves that were available. I do like the newer VCs and Dutchwest stove designs alot better. (But don't tell my stove that ;-) )
 
Can I think of a way to determine the efficiency change? probably not... it would involve heat transfer, thermodynamics, chemistry and a lot of complex math I forgot years ago :) And at best the answer would only be a very rough approximation due to all the simplifying assumptions you would have to make to figure it without a computer. That might make an interesting final exam question for some engineering students....

Is the blower strong enough to cool the fire and change the efficiency? Well since other members reported seeing their secondarys slow down and we know that blower on can have a huge effect on heating the room I'd guess yes. Keep in mind that relative to a 1200F flame inside the stove, 70F room air already is "really cold".

But the bottom line is you are absolutely right - for practical purposes using a blower is pretty much always a good thing. you just have to adjust the stoves operation to match (i.e. more air for the fire).
 
jharkin said:
Let me take a stab at it that hopefully doesnt drone on like a lecture....



-Jeremy

Thanks Jeremy,

I enjoyed your thoughtful analysis, and do find such ponderings useful. Most won't care, and will learn from experience, not theory, but for me the insight that a fan cools a (non-thermostatic) stove significantly, and can knock it out of secondary burning and/or increase smoke and creosote (Maybe not immediately, but during the middle of the night when no one is watching) is very useful.

That's where theory is helpful, for stove temps are so high relative to human senses that the idea of it being cooled enough to affect its efficiency, exhaust temps and creosote is counter-intuitive.

Just something else to keep in mind, and interesting to geeks like me.

Thanks for your insights.
 
The blower definitely moves the heat on this convection stove plus it reduces the radiant heating somewhat.. I find too much radiant heat makes me feel uncomfortable.. My flue pipe still gets plenty warm.. I will take convection heat anyday plus upstairs is close to the downstairs temp.. Perhaps if I had a nice soapstone the radiant would not be as intense.. Still love the look of soapstone..

Ray
 
I also enjoy theoretical discussions. However, the statement about 70 °C against the interior of the stove's 1200 °C is not entirely correct. The blowers are not blowing the cool air inside the firebox but merely around the stoves never in the stove directly. I do agree that it would have some affect on operating a stove. However, by spreading the heat to a wider amount of space you are essentially harvesting more heat from the appliance than without a blower. A blower allows you to move the heat to further spots in your house by creating greater air flow. A lot of this game we play with stoves also has to do with the circulation of air. For example: My next door neighboor just bought a pellet stove and was told that it would work better with an outside air intake. I told him that it probably would work just as good if not better without one. His stove is in the livingroom of an open floor modern colonial. Without outside air his stove acts as an air circulator by bringing in cool air into the room from other areas in the house. The blower spreads the hot air and the cool air is sucked in by the intake. The air sucked in by the intake is replaced with warm air created by the stove.

I highly recommend blowers!

Edit 1: Another thought greater air flow in the house can also cause the wood to burn faster in your stove. This can boost firebox temperature, thus hotter gasses and better secondary burns too! Unless you have an outside air intake that is not affected by the indoor air circulation.
 
VCBurner said:
A blower allows you to move the heat to further spots in your house by creating greater air flow. Agreed!

A lot of this game we play with stoves also has to do with the circulation of air. For example: My next door neighboor just bought a pellet stove and was told that it would work better with an outside air intake. I told him that it probably would work just as good if not better without one. His stove is in the livingroom of an open floor modern colonial. Without outside air his stove acts as an air circulator by bringing in cool air into the room from other areas in the house. The blower spreads the hot air and the cool air is sucked in by the intake. The air sucked in by the intake is replaced with warm air created by the stove.

I highly recommend blowers!

Edit 1: Another thought greater air flow in the house can also cause the wood to burn faster in your stove. This can boost firebox temperature, thus hotter gasses and better secondary burns too! Unless you have an outside air intake that is not affected by the indoor air circulation.

Hi Chris,

If you're willing to do some research and contemplation, I think you'll find that the facts of the matter are somewhat different from your present beliefs. I say that not to be argumentative, but to offer you a chance to see things differently.

Regarding outside air kits, your neighbor was told correctly. A stove intake sucks in the air closest to it, which is--barring an outside air intake--probably the air the stove has just heated and the warmest air in the house. It then sends this nice warm air out of your home, straight up the chimney, and out into the cold, cruel world.

Since that lost air has gone outside of your house, it has to be replaced by air from outside of your house. That ice cold air comes in through whatever cracks, holes and vents it can find. The net effect is warm air gets sucked towards your stove and up the chimney, and replaced by cold outside air, making the areas away from your stove colder. An outside air intake stops this warm inside air from being lost up your chimney and allows circulation to occur within your house, rather than sucking cold air in from the outside.

If that isn't clear, you can search the threads and faqs if you want, it's in there.

Regarding convection cooling, it cools the stove, not heats it. If the stove has a thermostat, or an observant operator, increasing the combustion air can make the stove burn faster and perhaps regain its original temperature, but that is an external correction and the basic effect of sucking heat out a stove with a fan is to cool the stove and cause it to burn less efficiently, not more. And since the stove has a limited ability to generate BTUs, any stove could be extinguished by the cooling of a sufficiently strong and cold wind.

That's not to say a blower is a bad thing, it's a great thing, because we want to get that heat out of the stove. The point is that sucking that heat out stresses the stove, like climbing a hill stresses your truck. There's no free lunch.

Hard to believe? An experiment might help.

Although it would be a pain to take a big stove outside and try cooling it, fortunately we have a smaller and more portable stove to play with--our bodies. In fact our bodies are miracles of technology, with built-in catalytic combusters allowing them to burn fuel at low temperature, and a built in thermostat to control burn rate and air supply. But, just like a stove, the human body has a limited maximum burn rate, and is stressed by too much cooling. So let's use our personal stove in the experiment.

On a 10* day, with winds of 30mph, take your personal stove outdoors with no insulation to allow maximum convective cooling. This is also known as buck naked. I predict that the first thing that happens is your thermostat turns your burn rate up to maximum (AKA shivering), and your air intake opens wide, sucking in as much oxygen as possible--likely accompanied by loud screams, obscenities, and major shrinkage. I also predict that your firebox temperature and efficiency will not go up, but down, your secondaries will go out, followed--if you stay out long enough--by your primaries, and a scene immortalized at the end of The Shining.

I assert that a wood stove's response is similar, though admittedly less entertaining.

I hope you find my rambling fun and thought provoking, for I mean no offense. Often the truth is counter-intuitive, which is one of the reasons this forum is so useful. If not, apologies, and as you were.
 
George you should be a teacher. Well said.
 
I have a Quadra Fire 5700 Step Top in my basement. Basically use it to keep my very cold kitchen warm by leaving cellar door open and also have floor registers upstairs that heats up that floor. This stove has the vents in the top that re burn and is very efficient on heat and wood. I have a blower on the back that pushes the air across the top but I wonder for my purpose is it doing me any good using it or should I just let it "radiate". Would I be cooling off the top of the stove by using the blower even on low-med?
 
Hi Chris,
If you’re willing to do some research and contemplation, I think you’ll find that the facts of the matter are somewhat different from your present beliefs. I say that not to be argumentative, but to offer you a chance to see things differently.
Hi George,
Thanks for the reply. It's always nice when a post can cause a response and more posts!
I do agree with what you posted. I have read a few of the OAK vs. inside intake threads. One was my own from last year. "To OAK or not to Oak? That is the question." https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/51037/
I just happen to find good points on both sides of the discussion. In theory OAKs are fool proof. However, you've got to admit there are so many variables in each house that stating an oak will cause any house to be heated more efficiently is a very broad statement. Afterall, what good is the heat created by your heating appliance if it doesn't reach far places in your house? But, I wasn't trying to turn this thread into an OAK thread. There are just two sides to every coin. In my neighbor's case I think he benefits from the natural air circulation without an OAK. Yes, his stove would waste less BTU's out of the chimney with an OAK, but maybe the heat would not circulate as far and as fast with an OAK. Thus heating the entire house less efficiently. Are you buying it?

Edit: I also agree that cooling the stove with a blower has an cooling affect on the flue gasses. However, I think in some cases they have a very positive outcome. In all cases they affect how much wood is being burned, the temperature of the stove and flue gasses. Again, in my case air circulation causes my stove to heat my house more efficiently. Circulation created by the blower and lack of an OAK.
 
VCBurner said:
Hi Chris,
If you’re willing to do some research and contemplation, I think you’ll find that the facts of the matter are somewhat different from your present beliefs. I say that not to be argumentative, but to offer you a chance to see things differently.
Hi George,
Thanks for the reply. It's always nice when a post can cause a response and more posts!
I do agree with what you posted.

I salute you! Believe me, I know how hard it is to focus on the ideas in a discussion, rather than digging in the heels and trying to "win". I believe the willingness to change one's mind and/or admit mistakes is a very powerful tool, and makes things much more fun and rewarding.

There are just two sides to every coin. In my neighbor's case I think he benefits from the natural air circulation without an OAK. Yes, his stove would waste less BTU's out of the chimney with an OAK, but maybe the heat would not circulate as far and as fast with an OAK. Thus heating the entire house less efficiently. Are you buying it?

You bet. All engineering (and life) decisions are a balancing game. There are many factors, and the better we understand each of them, the better we can apply them in our own circumstance. Thanks for being cool.
 
Hello George,
How refreshing! It's not everyday you find someone who's willing to look past their own convictions. I agree. I've read many of your posts and they always present an interesting view. Right on!

Heat on!
 
I am no traditionalist when it comes to the blower or no blower question. I want every BTU I can get out of my wood processing efforts to enter my living area and spread throughout the house. That wouldn't happen without the blower and a strategically placed box fan.

Just my 2 cents.
 
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