I want to purchase a wood burning insert, but no one will sell me/install one?

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KnightFire

New Member
Dec 4, 2010
16
Charles Town, WV
I currently have a prefabricated Heatilator 42C unit serving duty as my "fireplace." This was built/installed by the builder of my house 3 years ago. Now, I want to install a Quadrafire 5100, or a Lopi Freedom Bay, or a Regal I300; however I can't find anyone willing to deliver/install it, and when I did finally find ONE dealer willing to deliver and install it, they stated they won't sell me the unit because my fireplace wasn't built to withstand the amounts of heat the wood burning insert would put out.

I understand his point, but is it accurate?

I also looked into a Napoleon 1150P freestanding unit, but it would still cost $8,000 to have one installed, because it too would need a chimney built to the roof and "chased-in."

All of this is leaving me scratching my head, how do people get these units installed in their houses in the first place? Does everyone but me have a true masonry fireplace? Or does everyone ignore the fact their chimneys "weren't built to withstand the temperatures a wood burning insert puts out"? I have a hard time accepting the later, but in this economy I also have a hard time of someone refusing a $4,000.00 sale.

The entire point was to get something that burned a lot less wood (which means less felling, bucking, and splitting for me), something that would heat much better, and something I can use to cook on during an emergency.

So, tell me, am I screwed? No one wants to sell me or install what I want. Do I keep looking, or are they right? Am I stuck with this pre-fab builder grade POS Heatilator?
I've taken the Heatilator as far as it can go by adding a fireback, blower, doors, etc...there isn't anything more I can do to improve it's heating capability, is there?
 

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Installing an insert into a factory built fireplace can be a hornet's nest of legal and liability issues. Often they are not built with the proper clearances to allow for the heat an insert produces. It may be possible to install one in your fireplace, but you will have to do some research on the maker of your fireplace and see if THEY approve of any specific make/model of insert to be installed in their fireplace, and then you will need to check with the insert maker to make sure the insert can be installed in YOUR SPECIFIC prefab fireplace. It's a real pain in the rear, but there are reasons for it.

As to why people have these in their homes, they are quick and cheap for builders to install and they add value to the house. Unfortunately they're pretty much useless IMO.
 
Lopi Freedom Bay manual:

"WARNING: Do not install this fireplace insert into a
factory-built metal (Z.C.) fireplace."

Quadrafire 5100i manual:

"Approved for installation and use in factory built zero-clearance fireplaces conforming to minimum fire chamber specifications (USA only)"

Regency I3100 manual page eight:

"INSTALLATION INTO A
FACTORY BUILT
FIREPLACE"
 
cmonSTART said:
As to why people have these in their homes, they are quick and cheap for builders to install and they add value to the house. Unfortunately they're pretty much useless IMO.
Click to expand...

Yah, I'm finding that out 3 years too late.

The same company that built the chimney and installed the Heatilator is the same company telling me I can't install an insert.

Thanks for the response!
 
KnightFire said:
All of this is leaving me scratching my head, how do people get these units installed in their houses in the first place? Does everyone but me have a true masonry fireplace?
Click to expand...

When did prefab fireplaces start to become common in home construction... the late 70s/early 80's I think? And I believe that something like 50% of all houses in this country are older than 1980.


So Id guess there are a LOT of houses out there with real brick chimneys....
 
Black Moose made some good points. As a Mfg we are active in reading various leglislation & code regarding this issue. As far as I understand the language for how this should be handled is quite vague by the safety bodies. If you want me to dig the chapter & verse I can look them up.

For our part we state that as long as the original ZC Mfg states that it's ok to install an insert we're good to go.

Common sense should also prevail... If there is no objection having a roaring fire with a naked flame inside a ZC why should placing an insulated insert inside it? The insert wall typically would not touch the ZC walls and even if it did will not reach the temps from an open fire.
 
BrotherBart said:
Lopi Freedom Bay manual:

"WARNING: Do not install this fireplace insert into a
factory-built metal (Z.C.) fireplace."

Quadrafire 5100i manual:

"Approved for installation and use in factory built zero-clearance fireplaces conforming to minimum fire chamber specifications (USA only)"

Regency I3100 manual page eight:

"INSTALLATION INTO A
FACTORY BUILT
FIREPLACE"
Click to expand...

This is great info, I dug into the Regency manual at: http://www.regency-fire.com/RegencyFireplaces/files/0f/0f629ad1-2185-4331-a8b3-f82b3baf3b6f.pdf and found that you CAN install in ZC prefab units, IF you meet certain criteria, so I've recontacted the company that installed my ZC unit and fireplace, emailed them the .pdf files and am waiting to hear back from them. They were very frank about not being able to install ANY type of solid fuel burning unit into a pre-fab unit, this data contradicts that, so they were a bit shocked. I found much of the same information for Quadrafire http://www.quadrafire.com/~/media/Files/Quadrafire/Installation Manuals/man_5100iACT.ashx

Thank you for pointing me in the right direction! At least now I know they CAN be installed in ZC units, IF they meet the criteria.

I'm keeping my fingers crossed.
 
There are lopi units rated for zero clearance (pre-fab) fireplaces, the revere is one; however it does have approx 10" of the insert into the room, typically would need the front legs and an extended hearth. If you are willing to do a little work (changing openings) i would recomend considering the Kozy Heat Z-42. That is essentially a woodstove in a zero clearance case. Bis makes some great units as well. This would entail removing the existing zero clearance fireplace & chimney and replacing it with another unit, the advantage is that you end up with a much larger fireplace as well as a unit designed to be in the wall. The manufactures web site will generally let you search for a local dealer.
 
Country/Lennox make 2 inserts that according to them are approved for Z/C box's , I have the smaller C160 installed in my Majestic Z/C box, they also have a slightly larger model

Here is a page from their installation manual


The Striker™ C/A160 insert must only be installed in a zero clearance
factory-built fireplace using 6” (152 mm) stainless steel pipe extending
from the insert’s flue into the chimney of the fireplace. For optimum
safety and performance we recommend a full length stainless steel
liner directly connected to the insert’s flue outlet.

The Striker C/A160 insert must only be installed in a zero clearance
factory-built fireplace that is structurally sound. Fireboxes or chimneys
that have flaws, burnouts, or warping must be replaced or repaired prior
to installation. Check with your fireplace manufacturer if any problems
exist.

All convection vents and louvers must be left unmodified and unobstructed.

The Striker C/A160 insert can only be installed in the following brands of
factory-built zero clearance fireplaces: LENNOX, SUPERIOR, HEATILATOR,
MAJESTIC, MARTIN, PREWAY, MARCO, TEMCO and FMI.
The fireplace cavity must be 36” (914 mm) in width, 21” (533 mm) in
height and 14” (356 mm) in depth. Installation in larger size fireboxes
of the same brands is permissible.

Installations into other brands of the same size is permissible only with
approval from local building officials.

Modifications allowed to the factory-built fireplace are as follows:
- Remove the damper
- Remove the smoke shelf or smoke baffle
- Remove ember catches
- Remove viewing screen/curtain
- Remove side and rear bricks
- Remove the fire grate
- Remove doors
 
pyro68 said:
There are lopi units rated for zero clearance (pre-fab) fireplaces, the revere is one; however it does have approx 10" of the insert into the room, typically would need the front legs and an extended hearth. If you are willing to do a little work (changing openings) i would recomend considering the Kozy Heat Z-42. That is essentially a woodstove in a zero clearance case. Bis makes some great units as well. This would entail removing the existing zero clearance fireplace & chimney and replacing it with another unit, the advantage is that you end up with a much larger fireplace as well as a unit designed to be in the wall. The manufactures web site will generally let you search for a local dealer.
Click to expand...

This is the type I was looking at, but wanting a bit bigger unit/larger firebox, with longer burn times, etc, is why I chose the larger models. The fact that it sticks out 10" is very attractive to me, as I DO want to cook on it, should the need arise. Honestly Lopi was/is my first choice, only because of the reading of reviews on this forum, but if it's not terribly obvious that I'm a complete newb with regards to inserts, the following question will prove it:

OK, stupid question time, for a new wood burning insert, does it go INSIDE the current A42C Heatiliator that I have, or does it REPLACE the Heatilator entirely?
 
Any insert rated to go into your existing unit will most likely have a smaller firebox than what you are looking for, that's why i would recommend at least considering removing the current Heatilator and installing something down the line of a Kozy Heat Z-42, FPX makes a more elaborate version, but what i would recommend is an epa, controlled combustion zero clearance fireplace.
 
pyro68 said:
Any insert rated to go into your existing unit will most likely have a smaller firebox than what you are looking for, that's why i would recommend at least considering removing the current Heatilator and installing something down the line of a Kozy Heat Z-42, FPX makes a more elaborate version, but what i would recommend is an epa, controlled combustion zero clearance fireplace.
Click to expand...

Any idea what something like this would cost? I went to their website and couldn't find a model that would allow me to cook on it, should I need to. This is fairly important feature for me. But it DOES look like a great replacement for my POS Heatliator...I never knew there we so many dang choices out there!!! Now I'm giving something like this serious thought...I have other ways to cook (grill, camp stove, etc), should I need to, but I enjoy have redundant capability.
 
You can cook on most stoves & inserts on the market. However, in your case I think you mean something that extend more into the room. If that is the case you may also want to look at the Regency Hearth Heater.

Just google the models you are interested in and you'll find a price range. I would think what you're looking for is in the 2k + range.
 
For what it's worth, my wife and I had a Kozy Heat Z42 installed the end of last February and we are very happy with it's performance. The unit easily heats our 1800sq ft ranch - furnace off. If I'm estimating correctly, we should use about 3.5 cords of wood a year, with our thermostat reading about 80 degrees.

The stove shop that sold us the unit did the install; built up a raised hearth, adjusted a header, and installed the new chimney pipe in a half day. I had a mason complete the hearth and surrounding stonework.

They're aren't many options for those of us with prefab setups without getting into some more serious renovations or moving the location of the unit all together. The Z42 is keeping us warm and happy. If you'd like, I'll put up some pictures when I get home from work this evening.

Hope this helps.

Kevin
 
Have you looked at any of the Kuma models?
 
As fyre bug stated, the regency hearth heater is a great solution to the cooking and space problem.

I would be careful of whats under your hearth with that particular unit. Typically wood framing and not solid stone.

A hearth mounted stove such as a rear vented jotul, or regency hampton is a nice solution, as you will only have to modify your hearth to get the room and spark protection out front.

Plus they look cool, and you can have a nice cover plate made up to cover the old heatilator in behind.

Installing wood inserts into factory built ZC's is no no in my opinion. They are typically wrapped in pink insulation, because builders cant figure out how to create a thermal break with proper firestops.

I would worry about the clearances of the existing wood zero. The insert will produce much higher levels of heat compared to an open fire in your wood zero.

If you want big heat, take out the old and put in a new wood zero, RSF or FP 90 regency make nice clean heaters.
 
OK, I'm more confused than ever, it's great that so many of you responded.

I finally got an email back from the dealer and they stated that while I could use an insert, they wouldn't do it. So I'm right back to square one again.

If any of you know of a specific model that can be used within a UL 127 rated, Model: A42C Heatilator (42"Wide in the front, 30 7/8" wide in the back---22 3/4"Deep---23 3/8" Height), please advise, I'd very much appreciate being pointed in the right direction. As far as I can tell, I can use darn near any insert on the market, I have more than enough room to use any of the Regency insert models, and they state their models CAN be installed inside my Heatilator, IF I could figure out what kind of chimney liner I have! As far as I can figure out, it has to be UL 1777 rated. I have no clue how to determine what mine is rated.

It looks more like I'll need to find a dealer who will actually come out and take a look at what I have, then suggest a model. I find it very difficult to believe that I'm TRYING to give someone my money, and no one will take it. Now, is it because they are afraid of installing an insert inside a ZC Heatilator; because most models have instructions that say it can be done, is it really THAT risky? I can't imagine a corporation giving instructions for something that would burn peoples homes down, but I'm certainly not willing to bet my house on it. I've still not had any luck trying to figure out what my chimney is made of.

Again, thanks everyone!!!
 
KnightFire said:
pyro68 said:
There are lopi units rated for zero clearance (pre-fab) fireplaces, the revere is one; however it does have approx 10" of the insert into the room, typically would need the front legs and an extended hearth. If you are willing to do a little work (changing openings) i would recomend considering the Kozy Heat Z-42. That is essentially a woodstove in a zero clearance case. Bis makes some great units as well. This would entail removing the existing zero clearance fireplace & chimney and replacing it with another unit, the advantage is that you end up with a much larger fireplace as well as a unit designed to be in the wall. The manufactures web site will generally let you search for a local dealer.
Click to expand...

This is the type I was looking at, but wanting a bit bigger unit/larger firebox, with longer burn times, etc, is why I chose the larger models. The fact that it sticks out 10" is very attractive to me, as I DO want to cook on it, should the need arise. Honestly Lopi was/is my first choice, only because of the reading of reviews on this forum, but if it's not terribly obvious that I'm a complete newb with regards to inserts, the following question will prove it:

OK, stupid question time, for a new wood burning insert, does it go INSIDE the current A42C Heatiliator that I have, or does it REPLACE the Heatilator entirely?
Click to expand...


Don't forget the Avalon Pendelton Don't know if it is approve for your insert mine was a MAJESTIC has a great flat top for cooking.

Your not going to get a really big box it just the nature of putting it in a ZC. But the heat will definitely be better 70% better. I too wish before I built this house 10 years ago I checked sites like this out...

Would cost around $10,000 to rip out the ZC and re-install so a $3000 insert w/liner and all installed sounded better. If I change my mind in the future the insert it has legs to make it a free standing unit for say the basement.

It's funny I could fix 5-7 logs in my ZC and burn the wood and never get the heat but with the Avalon I can fix 3 small log and heat my total house like on a day like today...snow storm temps around 27f outside...inside 72f

If yours can have a insert, get one, you won't regret it...I know I was using a ZC for 10 years what a waste.

md
 
If you have ever seen what the heatilator looks like not installed, I personally would not put an insert designed for a masonry fireplace into the heatilator. It is basically a sheetmetal box with some refractory brick liner. I removed one from my home and doubt that it even weighed 150 lbs. You might never have a problem, but I would not chance it.

As others have suggested a zero clearance EPA fireplace would be a good solution. The FPX 36 uses an air cooled chimney and would likely fit in your existing chase if you have enough depth. FPX 36 is 42"W x 41"H and 26"D your heatilator required 49"W 41.5"H 23"D for framing so its very close. The FPX would not allow you to cook on it but does produce tremendous amounts of heat.
 
i have a ZC fireplace.
and a insert.
the "enviro venice 1700" insert is ZC rated.
look into that one.it is the largest i was able to find that is rated for a ZC fireplace.
 
Knightfire for what it's worth a year and a half ago I had no idea what fireplace insert was. Only until I started wondering if I could actually make my zc fireplace produce heat did I stumble upon this site. Now this is my second year heating my 1600sqft rancher with wood and after wearing out the search button and measuring and studying clearance to combustibles and k value,micore board, how to build a hearth correctly I installed my Enviro Kodiak into my Tempco zc firebox and extended the hearth for a little more than 3k. I sleep well at night knowing I had done my homework so be patient and use this resource you can find your answers here.
 

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Contact a Jotul dealer all their stoves and inserts are rated for connection to a zc fireplace.(must add liner and observe proper clearances).
 
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