First post, stove sizes and a digital thermostat....

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AVIVIII

Member
Dec 3, 2010
241
New Hampshire
This is my first post here, though I have been slowly reading through and following along for a couple weeks now.

I am in the process of searching for my first pellet stove.

A little background first. We recently bought a home that was built in 2003. It is a very tight home; spray-foam insulation in all the walls and roof, all Andersen low-E thermo-pane windows and all new (2010) Therma-Tru doors on the first floor. We had to replace the boiler for the FHW heating system as the previous one burst while the home was unoccupied. We put in a new Smith Cast Iron oil boiler that is rated at 85% efficiency. The problem is that the main floor of our 2600 sqft house is VERY open concept with a 3 story stairwell that goes from the main level up to the third floor. Very grand yes, but not very inefficient for keeping heat on the main floor of a home in central NH. We have subsequently gone through a fair amount of oil just trying to keep the first floor warm. We have walled off the third floor, installed a door and insulated the wall, which has helped, but its still not enough...

So we decided on a pellet stove to provide us with some supplemental zone heating on the 980 sqft first floor. I have been looking for a couple weeks now, played with a few of them and talked to a lot people and got even more opinions. I decided that I really like Harmans (though I don't think its final yet....) but am still very open to suggestions and other options.

First, How big should I go? I have no misconception, plan or desire to heat my entire house with it, but to provide some more comfort with some cost savings. Now, our living room is in the northeastern corner of the house and our bedroom is directly above the living room. The only feasible place to install the stove on the first floor is in the southwest corner. Like I said, its pretty open so I'm not too worried about the heat moving through the first floor, but I know its not ideal. I could put the stioe in the basement under the northeast side though I know that isn't ideal either and I definitely don;t need or want to heat the basement.... From what I understand, its better for a stove to run intermittently on high than continuously on low. So should I get a smaller stove (Harman P43) and let her crank or should I get a larger model (P61 or P68) and let it run a little less often or maybe not so hot also keeping in mind that I am going to loose some efficiency by not having it centrally located. While money is a substantial factor, it is less important than getting the right stove.

Next, is it possible to attach a pellet stove to a programable thermostat? This may be a terrible noob question, but search "pellet+thermostat" and see if you can make any sense of the results..... Ideally what I would like to do is use the oil to maintain the house durring the day at a low-comfortable temperature and then have the pellet stove automatically kick on just before my wife gets home from work and stay operable until bedtime and do the same again right before she wakes up and goes to work. I'm either away for long periods of time or working from home so besides filling the hopper, I need it to be a no-brainer for her. I am home frequently enough to properly clean it and take care of it, but I need it to actually run when its needed so I can save on my oil bill. What are my options here?

I look forward to learning and more so getting a new stove!

Thanks,
Kevin
 
Welcome to the forums! A great place to learn! Yes you can use a programable stat with most stoves if they have the provisions for a thermostat. I have a skytech 3301p on my st.croix and it works great! Being wireless you can experement with the location that works the best for your home. You have to remember it takes a little longer to bring the house up to temp then say a forced air gas or oil furnace. As for the size of the stove, i guess i would go bigger and run it at a lower setting than have a stove that is too small to do the job on a higher setting! I'm sure others will be along to help out with your questions soon. Take care and again, welcome!!
 
AFAIK the Harmans are limited in what can be used for programmable stats. Hopefully the harman members can assist here! There is a special way of connecting them as well. You still need to have the room temp probe in the stat circuit!

I am a complete MORE IS BETTER believer. I froze in the coldest part of the season for way to many years to not have more than needed! But the p68 might be a bit much or heck it could heat the whole house for you. You will not know for sure untill you have it installed and the cold season hits you. But the tight house is a plus for you and should be far easier to keep warm!
 
Thanks for the responses!

I'm generally not one to buy anything in a 'small' size, though I know 'bigger is better' isn't always the answer, though it very well may be in this case. I have been told that not running a pellet stove hot enough or long enough is bad for it an inefficient. Fact or fiction? I (my wife) would really like the Harman XXV (because its 'pretty'), but the footprint is a little on the large size for my space, thus I am seriously considering the P61a.

As far as the thermostat is concerned, I don't have a problem using the (harman) room sensor, but I really would like to be able to control the TIME that it is allowed to turn on and off. Are their any other options for controlling the operable time? I know I can't put the stove on a wall timer or anything like that, but maybe there is something else that I can wire into the room sensor circuit?

Going back to the local Harman dealer today to kick some more tires....
 
Just one caution with having the fire turn itself on every day... You will burn up an igniter faster by having to completely relight the fire each day. Speaking from experience of running my stove in on/off mode and the thermostat turning it on and off repeatedly through the day. You probably won't use one up as fast as I did if you only do it once a day, but it will not live as long as it would by running the stove for several days between cleaning.
 
IMO, don't get "hung-up" on just looking at Harman's....there are a lot of good stoves out there that are considerably cheaper. Harman stoves, while a good quality stove, have more than their share of problems & issues, partially due to their more complex designs. Enviro, Englander, St. Croix, Avalon and Lopi are other good quality stoves that you should take a look at if possible.

As for size, I would get a medium output or larger stove. Even if the stove is bigger (heat output-wise) than you think you need, you can always turn it down.

And all the stoves listed above, with the exception of the Harman's, will run off a normal millivolt stat.
 
imacman said:
IMO, don't get "hung-up" on just looking at Harman's....there are a lot of good stoves out there that are considerably cheaper. Harman stoves, while a good quality stove, have more than their share of problems & issues, partially due to their more complex designs. Enviro, Englander, St. Croix, Avalon and Lopi are other good quality stoves that you should take a look at if possible.

As for size, I would get a medium output or larger stove. Even if the stove is bigger (heat output-wise) than you think you need, you can always turn it down.

And all the stoves listed above, with the exception of the Harman's, will run off a normal millivolt stat.

What HE said...
 
What Imacman said, and Krooser seconded, X 10!!

Good luck. Let us know what you decide, and remember, we like pictures!

Regards,

Ranger
 
I can definitely appreciate the opinions; opinons and guidance are why I joined here, so please don;t think that I am ingoring what you have to say.

That being said, it seems like Enviro is the only one making any stoves over 45k BTU. I like them in theory and I would probably opt for the M55 out of their line, however, the nearest dealer is about an hour and a half away. So I haven't seen one in person, played with it etc. That is, aside from Englander, but I scratched them off the list a long time ago; A friend of mine has the Englander/Summers Heat 25-PDV/55-SHP22 and has had some problems with it. Aside from the problems, it seem way noisier than most others and doesn't have a removable ash container.

I did have a soft spot for the St. Croix, but I don;t think that a single one of them were over 40k BTU.

From my limited experience, it doesn;t seem that any of these stoves are close to infallible by any stretch of the imagination and I do understand that they all require work, upkeep and maintenace. But I am difinitely still interested in your input. I get home from work early tomorrow, so I'll try and broaden my horizons even more!
 
Enviro and St Croix have been busy with changes to there line ups. Not standing still if you know what I mean.
 
Do you have some ceiling fans to push the hot air down from you upper levels? I'd start there and see if you can even up the heat from your existing system first. The pellet stoves are nice heaters but not like a wood stove, not much nice radiant heat...so you will likely experience more of the same problems you have now, where the heat from the pellet stove will just head upstairs. Most stoves run most effeciently on High but can be pretty noisy ...you should spend some time near a few different stoves running at different heat settings to get a good feel what you would enjoy sitting near.....remember you will have to get into the regular cleaning and maintenance schedule!

Not to put you off getting a pellet stove....I love mine, but they aren't for everyone!!
 
AVIVIII said:
..... That is, aside from Englander, but I scratched them off the list a long time ago; A friend of mine has the Englander/Summers Heat 25-PDV/55-SHP22 and has had some problems with it. Aside from the problems, it seem way noisier than most others and doesn't have a removable ash container.....

Don't be so quick to cross the Englander off the list. The stove your friend has is the oldest design in the Englander fleet. Take a look at these:

www.englanderstoves.com/25-ep_i.html Heats up to 2000 sq. ft

www.englanderstoves.com/10-cpm.html " " " 2200 "
 
I recently walled off the stairwell to the attic, insulated it and put a fan in the top of the stair well, though keep in mind that that is nearly 30 feet above the first floor. The heat actually stays in the second level fairly well, but the force of the fan is not enough to push it all down to the first floor. I could probably rig something up (temporary fans?) to push it down more, but that is a far cry from a solution. Any other Ideas in that department.

I would really love a big old wood stove like I grew up with, but with our schedules, it is purely not feasible. I want to reduce my dependence on oil and this is the best way. Maintenance Schedule? This will be 'easy' on the normal scale of things that need regular maintenance around here.....

The local deal just introduced me to a pellet boiler today as well. Something else to think about.....
 
I have also been told time and time over to make sure that I get a stove from a reputable, local dealer who is going to stand behind the stove, the warranty and their work.

My problem has been finding those dealers. Its not a matter of price, because it looks like everyone is selling the same products for the same price. I called on a dealer today who sells Napoleon and Avalon/Lopi and out of all the stoves, the only one they had in the showroom was the Avalon Astoria and they don't even stock it. It seemed like a pretty nice stove, I really liked the extra large hopper, but it is only rated for 45k BTU and the price was $3400. For $100 LESS I can have a Harman P61A with another 25% output. The even bigger point to me was that the Harman will shut down when the stat stops calling for heat (0 btu / 0 pph), where the Avalon will just go to low, which is still going to consume pellets at a rate of 14k btu / 1.8 pph. Given the amount of time that I want the stove to be shut down or on low, that seems like a lot of waste. It works out to about .8 bag/day just to be ready to make heat.

Englander- No local dealers besides Lowes and HD, so no dealers....

I did find a dealer about 40 mins away that sells St. Croix AND Enviro, so I am going to head there tomorrow morning. We shall see. Any specifically pertinent questions to ask regarding these brands?
 
AVIVIII said:
.....The even bigger point to me was that the Harman will shut down when the stat stops calling for heat (0 btu / 0 pph), where the Avalon will just go to low.....

Englander- No local dealers besides Lowes and HD, so no dealers....

I don't know who told you that the Avalon goes to "low" with stat use, but unless Travis Ind. completely changed the electronics, the Astoria is an "On-Off stove....I know, I had one that I ran on a stat.

And as for Lowes or HD being the only stores that carry Englanders, that's correct.....but what is the problem with that? If you're the least bit handy with basic tools, you can operate/maintain their stoves. Their Senior Tech is also a member here on the forum and will give help here, through a PM or email, or obviously on the phone. Their Customer service/Tech help is second to none, and you can order any stove they make through Lowes or HD.
 
Englander does make "user friendly" stoves when it comes to doing it yourself, and their service after the sale is very good. I didn't even look at stoves anyplace but a couple of other stores before finding the one I ended up with online at Lowes. I liked the styling and the price. And I could do the work all by myself. (Although I did recruit a couple of guys to help move it onto the hearth pad. :) )
 
imacman said:
AVIVIII said:
.....The even bigger point to me was that the Harman will shut down when the stat stops calling for heat (0 btu / 0 pph), where the Avalon will just go to low.....

Englander- No local dealers besides Lowes and HD, so no dealers....

I don't know who told you that the Avalon goes to "low" with stat use, but unless Travis Ind. completely changed the electronics, the Astoria is an "On-Off stove....I know, I had one that I ran on a stat.

The dealer in Hampton, NH that I talked to yesterday afternoon told me that. They said that it would not shut down completely unless I did so manually and that it would not restart unless I pushed a white button on the control panel. Like I said before, I can only go on my very limited experience and what people tell me...

I can appreciate your fervor for the Englander stoves. I am very mechanically inclined and I know that I can get a lot of help here, but when all else fails, no one from Lowes or HD is going to come out and fix my stove. The 25-EP does look like a pretty good value, lots of stove for the money, but I still need to play with one. I think there are 2 HDs between me and the place I'm going today, so I'll swing in and see if I can check one out.
 
**Update

I went and talked to another Lopi dealer and was informed that the previous deal was, as pointed out by imacman, very wrong. He was even kind enough to demonstrate the stove for me and the different settings.

Went and saw some Enviro stoves today and was very impressed by the M55. Nice output at 55k btu, fuel flexibility, full flame burner, low wall clearances and a cast iron burn pot. However, the price was right up there with the rest of them. Just over $3200, $3500 for the pretty vermont castings version.

I also switched gears a little and looked at the Enviro Maxx (70k BTU) and a new one they had by Drolet, the ECO-65 (65k BTU). These two ugly behemoths would definitely be basement dwellers, but I guess I could deal with that. They were also significantly cheaper at $2500 and $2700 respectively. If I go that route, I am leaning towards the Drolet for a couple reasons. First, I like every aspect of the design, from the bottom feed burner to the large, easy to remove panels on the side for cleaning and service and the big, no bull crap wing-nut that holds the door to the ash container shut. One of the biggest draws for me was that you could block off the main blower outlet and open up an outlet on the top that was designed to accept duct work. The standard 400 cfm fan could really push some hot air through a couple of short, flexible ducts to the living room. I could even hook up one of those high-velocity mini-duct systems too it and send it up stairs to the bedrooms! Of course, all invested, I would probably excede the Harman P68 budget, but with the heat being directed EXACTLY where I want it, i might save on pellets, plus, no lugging them upstairs!

To further complicate things, just when I had about thrown Harman off the list on the basis of price, I got a call from the salesman at the Harman dealer telling me that stoves were going on sale next week and he would give me the sale price today. P68 - $3399, XXV - $3499 and the hydroflex boiler would be going on sale too, but he didn't have a price yet. Great, another wrench in the works....

Gonna sleep on it and hopefully make the call one way or the other tomorrow. Maybe I think about it while I make a hearth pad.....
 
Grrr, another double post
 
C'mon, really?
 
AVIVIII said:
Grrr, another double post

The site has been running very slow for quite a while now....many people are double and triple posting, thinking the site or their computer is frozen and they are hitting the "submit' button multiple times.

I sent Webmaster Craig a PM about this a little while ago.
 
imacman said:
AVIVIII said:
Grrr, another double post

The site has been running very slow for quite a while now....many people are double and triple posting, thinking the site or their computer is frozen and they are hitting the "submit' button multiple times.

I sent Webmaster Craig a PM about this a little while ago.

Web is doing what he can. He shutdown the ash can and has a posted there with some info. I think he was thinking of shutting down the banners adds too! We are flooded with peeps looking for info.
 
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