Pellet insert vs free standing wood burning stove.

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J

jgcable

Member
Jan 24, 2010
62
Milford, CT
I am sure this topic has been beaten to death but I have a question.
My buddy and myself have similar sized houses.
He has a free standing wood burning stove. Its not a big one. I would say its "normal sized". Maybe 24" wide tops.
I have a The Earth Stove pellet stove insert in my fireplace.
We both have our units on the first floor of our houses and all the bedrooms are upstairs.
He burns wood all winter to heat his house. Its alot of work but he uses 0 oil in the winter.
His 1st floor where the wood stove is (its in the corner of his living room) gets to around 78 degrees no problem. His upstairs is so hot that he has to run his ceiling fans sometimes and his kids have even had to open a window in their rooms because its so hot upstairs.

My 1st floor where my insert is (its in the center of the house in the fireplace) pumps out tremendous heat and my downstairs gets to 72 degrees but my upstairs is cold. I can feel the heat on the staircase and in the upstairs hallway but once I get to the end of the hallway where the bedrooms are its cold. The bedrooms are cold too. I am talking 65 degrees.

So.... why does his small free standing wood burning stove heat his house so much better than my pellet stove fireplace insert?
 
what size pellet stove? Are your houses similar size and insulation ,windows,ect?
 
jgcable said:
I am sure this topic has been beaten to death but I have a question.
My buddy and myself have similar sized houses.
He has a free standing wood burning stove. Its not a big one. I would say its "normal sized". Maybe 24" wide tops.
I have a The Earth Stove pellet stove insert in my fireplace.
We both have our units on the first floor of our houses and all the bedrooms are upstairs.
He burns wood all winter to heat his house. Its alot of work but he uses 0 oil in the winter.
His 1st floor where the wood stove is (its in the corner of his living room) gets to around 78 degrees no problem. His upstairs is so hot that he has to run his ceiling fans sometimes and his kids have even had to open a window in their rooms because its so hot upstairs.

My 1st floor where my insert is (its in the center of the house in the fireplace) pumps out tremendous heat and my downstairs gets to 72 degrees but my upstairs is cold. I can feel the heat on the staircase and in the upstairs hallway but once I get to the end of the hallway where the bedrooms are its cold. The bedrooms are cold too. I am talking 65 degrees.

So.... why does his small free standing wood burning stove heat his house so much better than my pellet stove fireplace insert?
Click to expand...

too many variables to your question.... Its like asking why doesn't every basketball player play like Michael Jordan..they are all wearing shoes and dribbling a ball.


Whats the insulation like in both homes... whats the square footage... whats the btu output on his stove... even though its physically smaller it could have a higher btu rating than the pellet stove.... whats the btu output on your stove. ...
 
havlat24 said:
jgcable said:
I am sure this topic has been beaten to death but I have a question.
My buddy and myself have similar sized houses.
He has a free standing wood burning stove. Its not a big one. I would say its "normal sized". Maybe 24" wide tops.
I have a The Earth Stove pellet stove insert in my fireplace.
We both have our units on the first floor of our houses and all the bedrooms are upstairs.
He burns wood all winter to heat his house. Its alot of work but he uses 0 oil in the winter.
His 1st floor where the wood stove is (its in the corner of his living room) gets to around 78 degrees no problem. His upstairs is so hot that he has to run his ceiling fans sometimes and his kids have even had to open a window in their rooms because its so hot upstairs.

My 1st floor where my insert is (its in the center of the house in the fireplace) pumps out tremendous heat and my downstairs gets to 72 degrees but my upstairs is cold. I can feel the heat on the staircase and in the upstairs hallway but once I get to the end of the hallway where the bedrooms are its cold. The bedrooms are cold too. I am talking 65 degrees.

So.... why does his small free standing wood burning stove heat his house so much better than my pellet stove fireplace insert?
Click to expand...

too many variables to your question.... Its like asking why doesn't every basketball player play like Michael Jordan..they are all wearing shoes and dribbling a ball.


Whats the insulation like in both homes... whats the square footage... whats the btu output on his stove... even though its physically smaller it could have a higher btu rating than the pellet stove.... whats the btu output on your stove. ...
Click to expand...


His house is fully insulated with all new windows. My house has no insulation in the walls but it has all new windows. But heat rises regardless right??
My pellet insert has a blower on it. Its so powerful it actually moves the curtains. I can get my 1st floor to almost 74-78 degrees with it cranking but I usually keep it around 71-72 on the 1st floor. He keeps his 1st floor much hotter.. around 76-78.
Is that the reason his heat rises so much more than mine?

His wood burning free standing stove is the same physical size as my insert and it has no blower on it.
Why does the heat from the first floor in his house rise to the second floor so much easier than mine? Its literally blistering hot in his second floor.
My second floor is at least 6 degrees colder than my first floor.
 
Couple of reasons.

BTU - the wood stove no doubt would produce many more BTUs than your pellet insert. Your insert even on high puts out mid 30k BTU and the wood stove is likely double that. The temp of your pellet air output is likely 225* - 250* and at a good burn the woodstove is probably 450*-500* around most of the stove. The wood stove is hotter, plain and simple.

Temp - more heat on the first floor, and more heat available to rise and warm the second.

Insulation - you would be amazed at how much heat is lost thru your uninsulated walls. By the time your heated air rises, it has already cooled to the point it is not really heating the second floor.

Just not an apple to apple comparison.
 
jgcable said:
His house is fully insulated with all new windows. My house has no insulation in the walls but it has all new windows. But heat rises regardless right??
My pellet insert has a blower on it. Its so powerful it actually moves the curtains. I can get my 1st floor to almost 74-78 degrees with it cranking but I usually keep it around 71-72 on the 1st floor. He keeps his 1st floor much hotter.. around 76-78.
Is that the reason his heat rises so much more than mine?

His wood burning free standing stove is the same physical size as my insert and it has no blower on it.
Why does the heat from the first floor in his house rise to the second floor so much easier than mine? Its literally blistering hot in his second floor.
My second floor is at least 6 degrees colder than my first floor.
Click to expand...

My guess, the insulated walls, and most likely heavily insulated attic. I know when we blew in cellulose insulation above the ceilings in the attic in my last place, that it made a significant difference. Work on the walls, the cavities around the windows and then the attic, you'll be amazed at the difference.
 
Wall insulation is very important with a pellet stove especially.A wood stove is more forgiving to a lack of insulation.I found that out with my basement concrete walls.My pellet stove blew right through the walls.after insulating the stove works a lot better!
 
All of the previous suggestions are correct. A combination of changes will improve your problem. If you increase the temperature downstairs where your stove is, the temps upstairs will increase as well but probably to no where near what you are hoping for. Pellet stoves are space heaters. The one suggestion that I would make in addition to the others is to find a way to move the air in the house. You need to move the colder air towards the stove which ultimately creates a convection. The area in my house where the stove is located is always much warmer than the bedrooms. I placed a fan in the hallway at floor level moving the colder air towards the stove and the temps in the bedrooms increased 5 degrees. My house is one floor so my challenges are much different than yours. Either way, you need to find a way to move the air which is no simple task when you are trying to heat your entire home with a device that was designed to be a a space heater.
 
Insulation is huge, and from what I'm learning, getting the cold air back to the stove is more important than moving hot air (hot air will fill the void where the cold air was).

I have a Harman P61 in the basement of my house (Room temp, 70*, Feed rate 3 w/ probe extended to 1st floor), and the 1st floor is 71, 2nd floor 66. 66 is by no means freezing, and I end up sweating at night anyways. The electric baseboards are OFF...it's all pellet!!!

I would bet your loosing all your heat through the walls. My house is small and tight, well insulated and good windows except for the big leaky bow window in LR.

Good luck. I'm sure the guys here will help you.
 
Turbojoey said:
Insulation is huge, and from what I'm learning, getting the cold air back to the stove is more important than moving hot air (hot air will fill the void where the cold air was).

I have a Harman P61 in the basement of my house (Room temp, 70*, Feed rate 3 w/ probe extended to 1st floor), and the 1st floor is 71, 2nd floor 66. 66 is by no means freezing, and I end up sweating at night anyways. The electric baseboards are OFF...it's all pellet!!!

I would bet your loosing all your heat through the walls. My house is small and tight, well insulated and good windows except for the big leaky bow window in LR.

Good luck. I'm sure the guys here will help you.
Click to expand...

I understand what you are saying but....
If I was losing all my heat through the walls why does my 1st floor get so hot.
Basically, its like this...
My 1st floor is about 1200 sq ft. I have a fireplace in the middle of the house with my pellet insert in it. When the insert blasting the downstairs is 72-74 throughout the entire 1st floor.
The staircase upstairs is on the right side of the house. Its about 15' from the pellet stove insert. As I walk up the stairs I can feel the intense heat rising up the stairs. Once I get to the first landing (10 steps away) the heat has dissapated about 20%. Then the stairway makes a left turn and there is an additional 3 steps that lead to the hallway. When I walk down the 2nd floor hallway (about 15') the heat gradually decreases until there is nothing left at the end of the hallway. Thats where all the entrances to the bedrooms are so they are all cold. Generally around 62-65 tops.
The 10 degree difference between upstairs and downstairs is very noticeable.

I did notice one thing.. I think alot of the heat that is traveling up the stairs is along the 2nd floor ceiling because I stood on a chair and it was hot at the 2nd floor ceiling. I have ceiling fans in all of the bedrooms but they don't help out at all in either direction. If I have them drawing the air up there is no difference in temp. If I have them pushing the air down they create a breeze that is cool even on the lowest setting.
 
Hint #1 move the cold air down low towards the stove.

A forced hot air furnace like a pellet stove moves cold air through the heat exchanger and the air exits above the convection fans intake. This sets up a a convection loop. The problem you have is that your convection fan can not move anywhere close to what the forced hot air furnace can and its input is relatively close to its output. We are usually talking a factor of 7 or higher here.

In addition the cold air is taken in at a very low level point in the heating loop and that point is located away from the hot air registers.

This sets up a very powerful air flow in the house. Your pellet burner can't match it. A further thing is that the hot air furnace can have the air flow into each area adjusted to even out temperature differences.

Now couple this and the fact that surfaces lose heat at a rate proportional to, the temperature difference between the two sides, the area of the surface, and the conductance of the material making up the wall.

If one of these is varied by a factor of two the heat loss doubles, if two are varied by a factor of two the heat loss quadruples and if all three are varied by a factor of two the heat loss goes up 8 times.

Add in air infiltration and you have quite a task ahead of you in heating a structure.
 
Like most everyone said, the wood burning stove is putting your pellet stove to shame, plain and simple. Before my two pellet stoves, I have wood fired inserts and they would heat the house to the 80's all winter if I worked at it. Heck, my one room was so hot , I watched TV in underwear (not a pretty sight). Your neighbor's wood burning is probably pushing out 80,000 or more BTU's. All that heat is going to go UP so his upstairs will be much warmer. You just can't compare the two stoves OR the two houses.
 
Myth #1 heat rises.

Actually heat always flows from hot to cold. Hot air rises provided it can displace the air that is there and/or transfer its heat to the air that is there.

Now air isn't very good at holding or transferring heat.

So that leaves displacement as the mechanism to move the "hot" air around.
 
Smokey,
So, why do hot air balloons rise? My understanding is hot air is less dense which means it is lighter for a given volume.
Flynfrfun
 
flynfrfun said:
Smokey,
So, why do hot air balloons rise? My understanding is hot air is less dense which means it is lighter for a given volume.
Flynfrfun
Click to expand...

Just like a ship on the water floats.
 
SmokeyTheBear said:
flynfrfun said:
Smokey,
So, why do hot air balloons rise? My understanding is hot air is less dense which means it is lighter for a given volume.
Flynfrfun
Click to expand...

Just like a ship on the water floats.
Click to expand...

Its less dense. Why I say move the cold air towards the stove. It has more density so you will move more volume. Plus the hot air will replace the warm air. I am no scientist But the density differece is the reason hot and cold air don't mix easily. Let the stoves convection worry about the cold air! :)
 
j-takeman said:
SmokeyTheBear said:
flynfrfun said:
Smokey,
So, why do hot air balloons rise? My understanding is hot air is less dense which means it is lighter for a given volume.
Flynfrfun
Click to expand...

Just like a ship on the water floats.
Click to expand...

Its less dense. Why I say move the cold air towards the stove. It has more density so you will move more volume. Plus the hot air will replace the warm air. I am no scientist But the density differece is the reason hot and cold air don't mix easily. Let the stoves convection worry about the cold air! :)
Click to expand...

Hot air rises provided it can displace the air that is there and/or transfer its heat to the air that is there.
 
How many licks does it take to get to the center of a tootsie pop?
 
SmokeyTheBear said:
j-takeman said:
SmokeyTheBear said:
flynfrfun said:
Smokey,
So, why do hot air balloons rise? My understanding is hot air is less dense which means it is lighter for a given volume.
Flynfrfun
Click to expand...

Just like a ship on the water floats.
Click to expand...

Its less dense. Why I say move the cold air towards the stove. It has more density so you will move more volume. Plus the hot air will replace the warm air. I am no scientist But the density differece is the reason hot and cold air don't mix easily. Let the stoves convection worry about the cold air! :)
Click to expand...

Hot air rises provided it can displace the air that is there and/or transfer its heat to the air that is there.
Click to expand...

Yes Bear, I have seen many Flir camera vids. The hot air will fill the upper volume of the area. And then things get stagnated. But the cold mass is slowing it down. Kind of boring to watch too! Now try moving the cold air toward the heat source. What starts to form?

The flir was my helper in the convection map of my "no no" basement install.
 
All I can say is seal and insulate over and over. I would bet every dollar you spent on sealing and insulation would come back to you within 5 years easy on an uninsulated or very poorly insulated and sealed house. The difference in comfort level would be the immediate payoff. I bet if he had a 30k btu pellet stove and you had a 60k pellet stove he would probably still be warmer or if nothing else more comfortable throughout the house. The difference is staggering. Just sealing up my ductwork and adding insulation to my attic alone made it feel like a whole new house and it is only 4yrs old.
 
jgcable said:
Turbojoey said:
Insulation is huge, and from what I'm learning, getting the cold air back to the stove is more important than moving hot air (hot air will fill the void where the cold air was).

I have a Harman P61 in the basement of my house (Room temp, 70*, Feed rate 3 w/ probe extended to 1st floor), and the 1st floor is 71, 2nd floor 66. 66 is by no means freezing, and I end up sweating at night anyways. The electric baseboards are OFF...it's all pellet!!!

I would bet your loosing all your heat through the walls. My house is small and tight, well insulated and good windows except for the big leaky bow window in LR.

Good luck. I'm sure the guys here will help you.
Click to expand...

I understand what you are saying but....
If I was losing all my heat through the walls why does my 1st floor get so hot.
Basically, its like this...
My 1st floor is about 1200 sq ft. I have a fireplace in the middle of the house with my pellet insert in it. When the insert blasting the downstairs is 72-74 throughout the entire 1st floor.
The staircase upstairs is on the right side of the house. Its about 15' from the pellet stove insert. As I walk up the stairs I can feel the intense heat rising up the stairs. Once I get to the first landing (10 steps away) the heat has dissapated about 20%. Then the stairway makes a left turn and there is an additional 3 steps that lead to the hallway. When I walk down the 2nd floor hallway (about 15') the heat gradually decreases until there is nothing left at the end of the hallway. Thats where all the entrances to the bedrooms are so they are all cold. Generally around 62-65 tops.
The 10 degree difference between upstairs and downstairs is very noticeable.

I did notice one thing.. I think alot of the heat that is traveling up the stairs is along the 2nd floor ceiling because I stood on a chair and it was hot at the 2nd floor ceiling. I have ceiling fans in all of the bedrooms but they don't help out at all in either direction. If I have them drawing the air up there is no difference in temp. If I have them pushing the air down they create a breeze that is cool even on the lowest setting.
Click to expand...

Where your steps make the left turn at the first landing, is the ceiling sloped or is it vaulted straight up to the 2nd floor ceiling level? Alot of heat could be sitting there and cooling off? If not, it really is hard to say what could be happening since no one knows your house except you. For example, some told me to take insulation out of basement ceiling, cut floor registers, and install fans to get heat out of the basement....I did not have to do anything except take the cellar door off. The house just circulates the air sufficiently enough to keep it at the perfect temp for my wife and I.

But.....you say you can feel the heat rising upstairs. If you think the upstairs should be hotter, the air is either getting trapped or dissipating through the uninsulated walls. If neither, crank the stove.
 
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