polaris said:
dont forget enviro dealers as well
i shopped around for a ZC last year and found the enviro to have a larger fire box and higher BTU output.
however your ZC size will determine if you can fit a Enviro venice
I want to purchase a wood burning insert, but no one will sell me/install one?
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dont forget enviro dealers as well
i shopped around for a ZC last year and found the enviro to have a larger fire box and higher BTU output.
however your ZC size will determine if you can fit a Enviro venice
par0thead151 said:
Thanks for the tip! I looked into it and the only company around me that sells and installs these is the very same company I mentioned earlier and they refuse to install any insert into any ZC unit.
KnightFire said:
call the mfg, see if their units go into ZC units.
if so have the MFG slap some sense into your local dealer.
do it diplomatically so they dont hold a grudge.
par0thead151 said:
I've already proven to them that several makes/models of inserts can be installed via factory literature, I spoke with the manager himself and he admitted that it could be done after reading all the .pdf files I emailed to him, they simply refuse to do it.
I've found 5 other places, that sell inserts, I'm waiting for call backs from each. I'm no longer going by make/model type to choose a dealer, now I'm simply going by who ever even sells inserts then calling them to see if they will or will not sell/install an insert to me, which is a pretty sad commentary if you ask me. I'm trying to spend a LOT of money, no one wants it, or if they do, they refuse to do ANY work for it. I guess I'll chose a model from the stock of which ever dealer will sell/install a unit to me...which IMHO is pathetic.
Stick with it. These installs are safe and manufacturer/code compliant if done correctly with an approved model. Keep us posted on your progress(or lack thereof).
joe
joe
KnightFire said:
i can relate.
the first 2 chuckleheads that came to quote me on installs gave me bad news. the first said it was impossible to put a insert in my ZC. and that i would have to knock out part of my chimney, have that made larger, and redo a lot of the materials inside the house around the hearth. quoted me just over $10,000 for the work. i did not even humor them with a response once i got the quote.(i suppose a nice house made them think they could pad their quote by 2-3 fold.)
now comes the second installer. he says sure we can get you a insert in there, but he refused to look at the larger models, and insisted that the smallest insert would heat my 3000 SQ ft home just fine. his quote was also high for the install (over 1400$) and stove price was above msrp
the third one was the charm, and a enviro dealer.
which just so happened to be the largest sized ZC rated insert i could find to fit in my ZC fireplace.
FPX Dude
Feeling the Heat
I looked at putting an insert into a ZC as well. I found that I would either have to extend the hearth (wifey would not approve), or be limited to a much smaller insert. Considering a smaller insert you are limited in fire box size which affects acceptable log sizes, burn time, heat output etc. Looks like you have beautiful rock work which you may not want covered up with the shrouds going around an insert either. For me I'm real particular about how it's looks in the room and considered more modern sleek looks or rustic appeal. Also, consider how the cords from blowers and the like look when hanging out the side.
So, here's what I did, get a cardboard box roughly the size and dimension's of what you're considering, paint it the color you're think'n of, then get a bigger piece to make it look like the shroud or whatever, and put it in your ZC so you can see what you'd be up to. Pretty cheap way to see the whole picture. It made to decide to just rip out the ZC and in went the FPX!
So, here's what I did, get a cardboard box roughly the size and dimension's of what you're considering, paint it the color you're think'n of, then get a bigger piece to make it look like the shroud or whatever, and put it in your ZC so you can see what you'd be up to. Pretty cheap way to see the whole picture. It made to decide to just rip out the ZC and in went the FPX!
Mad Tom said:
Well, I found a dealer, a really really great dealer/installer who walked me through the possibilities and varying processes and I think what you just mentioned is the way we will go. I never even considered it a possibility, until this gentleman brought it up. I'm really impressed with him, we must have spoke on the phone for nearly an hour, discussing various options to attacking the problem. I never knew there were so many, I couldn't be happier that I found him, after calling SEVEN other "dealers."
He is DEFINITELY getting my business, now we just have to figure out if we will do as you did, or replace the insert entirely with a far more efficient unit.
KnightFire said:
Excellent! This is what you are looking for. You can always find the right guy if you keep looking. Glad it worked out.
FyreBug
Minister of Fire
"I've found 5 other places, that sell inserts, I'm waiting for call backs from each. I'm no longer going by make/model type to choose a dealer, now I'm simply going by who ever even sells inserts then calling them to see if they will or will not sell/install an insert to me, which is a pretty sad commentary if you ask me. I'm trying to spend a LOT of money, no one wants it, or if they do, they refuse to do ANY work for it. I guess I'll chose a model from the stock of which ever dealer will sell/install a unit to me...which IMHO is pathetic."
Have you tried Pool & Ski Stop out of Winchester? They carry Enerzone, Harman, Jotul among others.
Have you tried Pool & Ski Stop out of Winchester? They carry Enerzone, Harman, Jotul among others.
FPX Dude
Feeling the Heat
par0thead151 said:
So, not including price of FPX and chimney, and:
To the tune of that 'ol MasterCard commercial...
Cost of me rip'n the POS ZC out myself - $0
Cost of my handy construction buddy using a sawzall to cut out drywall and other junk in the chase - $Case of beer (it was Budweiser. Hey, he's in construction and that's what he loves, ha!)
Cost of install from a "hungry" craigslist installer who works at the local hearth store and does installs on the side - $350
Cost of drywall, hardibacker, marble and install - $850
Watching the flames and feeling the nice heat this baby throws off - $$$ PRICELESS $$$
Plus, when I was doing research on my options, I found this wonderful site and have come to know all of you...It's my favorite place
FyreBug said:
Actually, they were one of the 5 I was waiting to hear from, they never returned my call.
jtp10181
Minister of Fire
There is no way you will fit a 5100i into an A42C unless you hack it apart, which would be very very bad.
2700i would fit for sure. Maybe a 4100i
2700i would fit for sure. Maybe a 4100i
Knightfire, I am in the exact same position as you with an A42C. I also happen to be a stone's throw away from you across the river in MD. I have been trying to figure out how to make use of my POS prefab for quite some time. I have tons of wood on my property and an electric bill that kills us in the winter. I almost had decided on a pellet insert, but I just worry about all of the parts that can go wrong and again I have tons of free wood to burn. After lurking on this site for quite some time and contacting a couple of members, I have decided to install an Enviro Kodiak 1700 insert into my prefab. The unit should fit perfectly and has a good size firebox and btu output. I will be installing an insulated liner and from what others have said, I can make the connection to the insert from inside the insert which should help. This is my first post, but as I move forward, I hope to post my progress to give back a bit to this great forum. Thanks to all contributors to help get me to this point.
thechimneysweep
Minister of Fire
Whenever someone tells us they want us to install an insert in their zero-clearance fireplace, we tell them that before we can proceed, three things must be true:
1) The fireplace manufacturer must allow the installation of an insert in that model.
2) The insert manufacturer must allow installation in zero-clearance fireplaces
3) The insert must fit, without alteration to the 0-can beyond removal of the damper and bolt-on "smoke guard" across the top front, if present.
Following this thread, it seems the OP has a Heatilator A42C fireplace. On the factory listing label, shown on page 2 of the A42C installation manual at http://www.heatilator.com/downloads/installManuals/28396.pdf you'll find the following prohibition:
"DO NOT USE A FIREPLACE INSERT OR OTHER PRODUCTS NOT SPECIFIED FOR USE WITH THIS PRODUCT."
Not to rain on your parade or anything, par0thead151, but a similar prohibition appears on page 2 of your Majestic SR-42 manual, shown at http://legacy.vermontcastings.com/catalog/elements/files/7412948_SR_SC.pdf:
"Do not install a solid fuel burning insert or other products not specified for use with this fireplace."
As an installing dealership, we're not willing to take on the potential responsibility for installing inserts in zero clearance fireplace models that specifically forbid them, no matter how unlikely the event of a future catastrophic occurrence.
1) The fireplace manufacturer must allow the installation of an insert in that model.
2) The insert manufacturer must allow installation in zero-clearance fireplaces
3) The insert must fit, without alteration to the 0-can beyond removal of the damper and bolt-on "smoke guard" across the top front, if present.
Following this thread, it seems the OP has a Heatilator A42C fireplace. On the factory listing label, shown on page 2 of the A42C installation manual at http://www.heatilator.com/downloads/installManuals/28396.pdf you'll find the following prohibition:
"DO NOT USE A FIREPLACE INSERT OR OTHER PRODUCTS NOT SPECIFIED FOR USE WITH THIS PRODUCT."
Not to rain on your parade or anything, par0thead151, but a similar prohibition appears on page 2 of your Majestic SR-42 manual, shown at http://legacy.vermontcastings.com/catalog/elements/files/7412948_SR_SC.pdf:
"Do not install a solid fuel burning insert or other products not specified for use with this fireplace."
As an installing dealership, we're not willing to take on the potential responsibility for installing inserts in zero clearance fireplace models that specifically forbid them, no matter how unlikely the event of a future catastrophic occurrence.
I interpret "SPECIFIED FOR USE WITH THIS PRODUCT" to mean it needs to be an insert approved to be installed in a prefab fireplace, for which the Kodiak 1700 is approved. In addition, on page 41 of the referenced manual is the following:
B. Wood Burning Inserts
WARNING! Risk of Fire! Improper installation of wood inserts may cause fireplace or chimney system to overheat.
If a wood burning insert is being installed in this fireplace,
Hearth & Home Technologies recommends full reline of
the chimney.
• Cooling air openings at the top of the chimney must not
be obstructed in any manner.
• Hearth & Home Technologies recommends securing the
reline at the top of the flue and using the cap certified for
use with this fireplace system.
To me, that means that inserts can be used in the unit as long as the chimney is lined which is definitely in my plan. I also read somewhere on this forum that Heatilator themselves stated the same thing to another member. I'll try to find the post and I will call Heatilator to verify myself and give everyone an update.
thechimneysweeps 3 requirements pertaining to installation of the Kodiak in my Heatilator:
1) Check
2) Check
3) Based on the dimensions it should fit like a glove without modification. Check.
I really appreciate the feedback, so please let me know if I am off base.
B. Wood Burning Inserts
WARNING! Risk of Fire! Improper installation of wood inserts may cause fireplace or chimney system to overheat.
If a wood burning insert is being installed in this fireplace,
Hearth & Home Technologies recommends full reline of
the chimney.
• Cooling air openings at the top of the chimney must not
be obstructed in any manner.
• Hearth & Home Technologies recommends securing the
reline at the top of the flue and using the cap certified for
use with this fireplace system.
To me, that means that inserts can be used in the unit as long as the chimney is lined which is definitely in my plan. I also read somewhere on this forum that Heatilator themselves stated the same thing to another member. I'll try to find the post and I will call Heatilator to verify myself and give everyone an update.
thechimneysweeps 3 requirements pertaining to installation of the Kodiak in my Heatilator:
1) Check
2) Check
3) Based on the dimensions it should fit like a glove without modification. Check.
I really appreciate the feedback, so please let me know if I am off base.
It was concerning a Quadrafire 2700 in a Heatilator E36, but I believe that it is still pertinent info: https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/31118/#333244
thechimneysweep
Minister of Fire
You might have an argument there, but your interpretation isn't going to help the dealership who installs the insert if the insurance company's claims adjuster interprets otherwise. I guess I'm defending the dealerships who refused the OP's installation here, from a dealer's viewpoint. When you're installing possibly hundreds of inserts over the years, each of which is subject to abuse by owners, renters, guests, etc., any of whom might do something that causes an insert-related fire, you need to act in a manner that protects your company. If you've ever been sued by an insurance company, you'll know it gets really, really vicious in there.
I guess I left that one hanging over the plate. I can totally understand a dealer protecting themselves, but I'm just looking for the safest and easiest solution for my situation.
I contacted Heatilator for their "interpretation" of the statement:
Question: I currently have a Heatilator A42C installed and I would like to install a wood burning insert into the A42C. The A42C label states the following, "DO NOT USE A FIREPLACE INSERT OR OTHER PRODUCTS NOT SPECIFIED FOR USE WITH THIS PRODUCT". In order to clarify this statement for safety and support, does it mean that the insert has to state that it can be installed into a Heatilator A42C specifically OR does it mean that the insert must be specified for use in a zero-clearance fireplace in general?
Answer: It means the insert must specify Heatilator. I suggest contacting our sister company Quadrafire. (imagine that)
Looking at the Quadrafire manuals, I see the following: "This insert is listed to UL 1482 Standard and is approved for installation into listed factory-built zero clearance fireplaces listed to UL 127 conforming to the following specifications and instructions"
Since I did not find anything stating "Heatilator", I called Quadrafire to clear it up. After being on hold for quite some time with "Quadrafire", I get the Heatilator guy that I had previously emailed. He told me that any of the UL1482 quadrafire inserts rated for installation into a UL127 prefab could be used in my fireplace. Of course there is no documentation stating "approved for Heatilator" explicitly. So, I asked what about another manufacturer and he said that as long as their unit is UL1482 listed and approved for installation in a zero clearance fireplace then it should be fine as long as the local permitting office approves. I asked him if he could send me something stating that in writing but of course he dodged that and said that a dealer could contact their technical team for something. Problem is only the Hearth &Home; Technologies(Quadrafire, Heatilator, etc) dealers have their number and they won't give it out to anyone else.
Here is the terminology in the Kodiak manual:
● This appliance is tested to ULC-S627 Standard for Space Heaters for Use with Solid Fuel, ULC-S628
Standard for Fireplace Inserts, & UL 1482 Standard for Safety for Solid-Fuel Type Room Heaters.
● Both the 1200 & 1700 Fireplace Inserts are approved for installed into a zero-clearance fireplaces in the
U.S. In Canada refer to local building or fire officials for restrictions and installation inspection
I called the county permit office and they said the plan sounds good but I will need to of course apply for the permit and get final approval of the installation. I also called my insurance company and they said that as long as I have a permit and get the installation approved, then I'm good. I also intend to call Enviro to get their take(if I can find a number). After that, I think I'm good. I have actually thought about embedding an inexpensive k-type temp probe in the framing to monitor temps during the first few times using the insert for peace of mind.
I contacted Heatilator for their "interpretation" of the statement:
Question: I currently have a Heatilator A42C installed and I would like to install a wood burning insert into the A42C. The A42C label states the following, "DO NOT USE A FIREPLACE INSERT OR OTHER PRODUCTS NOT SPECIFIED FOR USE WITH THIS PRODUCT". In order to clarify this statement for safety and support, does it mean that the insert has to state that it can be installed into a Heatilator A42C specifically OR does it mean that the insert must be specified for use in a zero-clearance fireplace in general?
Answer: It means the insert must specify Heatilator. I suggest contacting our sister company Quadrafire. (imagine that)
Looking at the Quadrafire manuals, I see the following: "This insert is listed to UL 1482 Standard and is approved for installation into listed factory-built zero clearance fireplaces listed to UL 127 conforming to the following specifications and instructions"
Since I did not find anything stating "Heatilator", I called Quadrafire to clear it up. After being on hold for quite some time with "Quadrafire", I get the Heatilator guy that I had previously emailed. He told me that any of the UL1482 quadrafire inserts rated for installation into a UL127 prefab could be used in my fireplace. Of course there is no documentation stating "approved for Heatilator" explicitly. So, I asked what about another manufacturer and he said that as long as their unit is UL1482 listed and approved for installation in a zero clearance fireplace then it should be fine as long as the local permitting office approves. I asked him if he could send me something stating that in writing but of course he dodged that and said that a dealer could contact their technical team for something. Problem is only the Hearth &Home; Technologies(Quadrafire, Heatilator, etc) dealers have their number and they won't give it out to anyone else.
Here is the terminology in the Kodiak manual:
● This appliance is tested to ULC-S627 Standard for Space Heaters for Use with Solid Fuel, ULC-S628
Standard for Fireplace Inserts, & UL 1482 Standard for Safety for Solid-Fuel Type Room Heaters.
● Both the 1200 & 1700 Fireplace Inserts are approved for installed into a zero-clearance fireplaces in the
U.S. In Canada refer to local building or fire officials for restrictions and installation inspection
I called the county permit office and they said the plan sounds good but I will need to of course apply for the permit and get final approval of the installation. I also called my insurance company and they said that as long as I have a permit and get the installation approved, then I'm good. I also intend to call Enviro to get their take(if I can find a number). After that, I think I'm good. I have actually thought about embedding an inexpensive k-type temp probe in the framing to monitor temps during the first few times using the insert for peace of mind.
Milton Findley
Feeling the Heat
thechimneysweep said:
I ran into a similar problem with a 55 year old zero clearance insert. The building inspector was by this morning and we decided that there were no issues at all with what I actually did, but I have no use for the dealer fools that came in here to look at it, said that it would all have to be torn out and replaced, said that it could not be done, said that it could be done, but that they would not do it, liability etc. With the exception of the liability issues, (after all it was a zero clearance fireplace from the 50's, triple walled, triple walled chimneyed, and stainless steel except for the high carbon battleship steel of the outer wall, itself surrounded by masonry), these dealers showed absolutely no common sense at all regarding safety issues, installation constraints, or knowledge of what is permissible under the code and what is not permissible under code. No wonder attorney's make mincemeat out of them.
My wife and I did it ourselves, all to code. Wasn't hard at all. I own a few tools I would not otherwise own, built and used a jib crane to install the liner, learned how to tile, grout, and mix concrete in the living room without making a mess, and re-acquainted myself with the tin smithing skills I first learned in the 8th grade.
I think that there is a lot of folklore passing as knowledge in the wood stove business.
Renovation
New Member
sureman said:
Hi Sureman,
I admire your initiative, resourcefulness, and persistence.
The typical solution is throw money at the problem until it goes away, common sense be darned--tear it all out and start over. I happen to like your approach, and hope you eventually find someone in authority (your inspector perhaps) who is willing to think and take responsibility. Those people do exist. I wish you good luck, and hope you will post photos of your install.
One thing that you should definately do is contact your local inspector to make sure he is ok with putting an insert in there. A lot of times there may be a local or state code that will supercede a manufacturers recommendation. The local dealer probably has their reasons to not want to do this and you can not force them. One suggestion I will make is the Quadra-Fire 7100. Upsides are it puts out great heat, is a true house heater, uses the same pipe as your A42. Downside is it will take some custom work to finish it off but it will look beautiful and you would not be disappointed.
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