Is a treehugger still a tree hugger if he burns wood?

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Is a treehugger still a treehugger if he burns wood


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btuser said:
No doubt that burning wood is better than burning oil. Its just not practical unless you can get it for free. Scrounging is great, but if stuff really hit the fan there would be no scrounging. In fact, it would be closer to stealing as we started pulling off pieces of the house to keep ourselves warm. We're not going to save the world by buring wood. We're not even going to slow it down. Everything I've read tells me there's at most 10 years worth of wood before its gone. What then? A REDUCTION in the need for a specific number of BTUs/WATTS/gallons of energy is what is going to help. I'm starting to wonder how much of my house I could re-use in the "new, modern" structure I would be forced to build. This is only going to happen when it really hurts, untill then I'll keep doing the weekend warrior thing.

How much will "junk" wood be worth when heating oil is $10/gallon? My guess is $1,000/cord won't be unheard of if the price of diesel is $11/gallon. We'll see some serious tree-hugging then, in fact maybe I'll just chain my trees to the house so they don't get stolen.

Well Btuser, I think you hit the nail on the head with your predictions as to what we will be looking at in the future. I recently asked the question if anyone had or had heard of anyone who had tried any "new fuels" in there stoves the answers were no new fuels out there just old fuels in a different package. I don't think the term "new fuels" was a good choice of words,I do think there are lots of new Bio fuels that we can develop to take the place of tree burning, and the price need not be 1,000/cord even if oil prices get out of control. We need to start thinking out of the box if we plan to use our stoves in the future.

Buzz the tree-hugger
 
Dune said:
Problem with that answer; Your question is not about carbon neutral, it is about tree-hugging, generaly taken to mean enviromentaly sound.

Therefore, whether it is carbon-neutal or not is not the complete question. The difference is simple, Co2 is NOT the only gas released by a decomposing tree. CH4 (methane) is also released by decomposing vegatable matter, CH4 is a much more powerful greenhouse gas than CO2. Though I have mentioned this four (4) times now, Socrates has ignored it each time.

As to throwing fossil fuels into the equation, this is truly dis-ingenuos. The carbon collected over millions of years can stay sequestered if not burned. If burned, it adds to the carbon in the atmosphere NOW. Burning wood, does not.

Point #1: correct—I didn’t intend to answer the OP’s question. My comments were directed only at NH_Wood’s claim.
Point #2: Also correct, Dune, but I was ignoring the point about methane because, again, I was making an argument about the CO2 claim.
Point #3: No, I disagree with two points you make regarding fossil fuels. One, that raising the issue of fossil fuels is ‘disingenuous’ or incorrect/misleading in any way—while I agree that the carbon in oil would stay in the ground if we would leave it there, my point in bringing up fossil fuels was to use it as an analogy. My claim was that if offsetting the CO2 emissions of woodburning through growing new trees is carbon neutral, then offsetting the CO2 emissions of fossil fuel burning through growing new trees is carbon neutral. In my argument, I assert that you could replace the passage “fossil fuel burning†with any carbon-releasing practice (e.g. “flying one’s private jet to Paris to pick up a bottle of wineâ€, “burning a train-load of coal simply for the purpose of roasting one marshmallowâ€) and produce a statement that is equally incorrect as “offsetting the CO2 emissions of woodburning through growing new trees is carbon neutralâ€. I realize that it is contentious of me to claim a distinction between “carbon neutrality†and “carbon offsettingâ€, but there are lots of reasons to distinguish. Just a few such reasons: carbon offsetting is part of the same unbridled growth consumer society that got us where we are today, carbon-wise. Why? “All you have to do is put more money/work into things, and the carbon problem will be mitigated.†Seems silly to suppose that more consumerism (buying trees/land to put them on) is going to help. A person with an alchohol problem needs less alcohol, not more; a society whose problem is too much consumption needs less consumption, not more. I’ll admit, the folks on this forum might be less likely to pay someone to plant trees, but most people/businesses will be paying for this service. Second reason to distinguish: carbon-offsetting occurs in the future, while the carbon issue needs to be dealt with now. To think that there is anything usefully ‘neutral’ about releasing a million pounds of CO2 right now and sequestering that million pounds gradually over the next 100 years (which I believe is the time scale assumed in the tree-growth offsetting schemes), well, that is disingenuous. One more reason: I don’t have reasonable faith that anything started now (trees planted, liquid CO2 put in tanks) is going to be faithfully maintained for 100 years (the high-tech CO2-trapping methods would have to be maintained forever). We as a country can’t agree on anything for more than 4 years straight, and in 50 years, those CO2-sequestering trees are going to be worth more money than you can shake a stick of firewood at, and there are going to be a lot of new homes that need to be built less the economy crumble again and you should be in fear of losing…blah, blah, blah (you can imagine the rhetoric, right?).

Second point I disagree with regarding fossil fuels: “If burned, it adds to the carbon in the atmosphere NOW. Burning wood, does not.†I assume I simply misunderstand your claim here. The wood I’m burning now releases its CO2 now (that’s part of what’s going up the chimney). I don’t see how it could be otherwise.
 
Thankyou very much for that reasoned, reasonable and responsible response.

Part of where we diverge is the 100 year cycle of tree growth. Trees that I planted less than thirty years ago are plenty harvestable now, Many hardwoods are mature in 50-60 years, some less. Some species of softwoods have a 40 year or less total lifespan, many can be economicaly harvested in a 20 year cycle.

Aditionaly, a well managed wood lot increases it's ability to sequester carbon continuously, all the while providing fuel or timber for the owner.

I completely agree about the idiocy of trying to sequester CO2 underground, liquid or gasous. Rather we should make more goods from wood, sinificant sequestering is then acomplished.

As to the last, entirely depends on method, and efficiency of course, but let us look at a couple methods quickly. First, as we are all aware, some of each tree, the root system is left in the ground, where inevitably some carbon sequestration ocurs. Of course, some methane is also procuced, yet not released, hence the natural gas feilds prevalent under 90% of our continent. The root system, all composed of former atmospheric CO2 is larger than it apears, generaly the same diameter of the tree. This is a significant amount of sequestration from every tree burned.

Now for the kind of extreme situation for which I am known to report: though not practiced certainly by most burners, a growing trend, nonetheless.

When I fell a living tree, however, I take the time to cut the tops down to 1'' diameter or less. I then stack the brush to dry. There is of course much less brush, since I buck so much of it. When the brush has dried, I use some of it as fuel, and the remainder as stock to make charcoal. I then integrate the charcoal into my soil, vastly improving the yeild of the garden. This is known as "bio-char" and done correctly, is indeed carbon negative. Less carbon is released in heating with trees treated so than the tree absorbed during it's lifespan. While I produce more bio-char than I need, I use the surplus as forge fuel since I am a blacksmith (full time).
The charcoal is wonderfull forge fuel, hotter and cleaner than the nasty bituminous (closer to tar than coal) coal generaly used by blacksmiths. As a member of a blacksmith fraternity similar in size to this forum, I know that many others also produce their own charcoal, often just to save money, but also due to the general difficulty in aquiring bituminous coal. Sorry, but off track there.

Of course, much of the wood I burn is not treated this way, since I often recieved trunks from tree services, the tops have been chipped. It is the only cost effective method for those in the business.

Now for the even more extreme method of my brother in a nearby town. On his six acre farm, he harvests locust. He sells cords of locust for $400, all he can porduce. It is that good of a fuel. The tops are then gassifed, in a charcoal producing gasifier. The heat from the gasifer heats his shop and home. All the charcoal produced is put into his feilds, sand, no other fertilizer is used. He grows a native crop, it thrives in sand, but his yeild is doubled in the augmented feilds. The stumps are left in the feilds, he plants around them. Again, truly and fully carbon negative, not only at his farm, but at the homes of those who burn his fuel.

Wood pellet users are also burning carbon negative, since the pellets are a by-product of durable wood manufactured goods. The pellets are burned, but the majority of the tree becomes locked in a home or furniture.
 
Edit/addendum: I posted the below without seeing your latest post Dune, so it doesn't take into account the subtleties of your carbon neutral/negative practices. Thanks for the comprehensive response. I think, like you mentioned a ways back, that you and I (still) have semantic disagreements, although I'm glad we're both seeing the other's points more clearly now.

But: More bad news from the CO2 front: offsetting the CO2 from wood heat is going to take more work than offsetting the CO2 from liquid or gas fossil fuels (or from burning tires, for that matter). The info comes from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greenhouse_gas

Mass of carbon dioxide emitted per quantity of energy for various fuels

Fuel name CO2 emitted (lbs/106 Btu)

Natural gas 117
Liquefied petroleum gas 139
Propane 139
Aviation gasoline 153
Automobile gasoline 156
Kerosene 159
Fuel oil 161
Tires/tire derived fuel 189
Wood and wood waste 195
Coal (bituminous) 205
Coal (subbituminous) 213
Coal (lignite) 215
Petroleum coke 225
Coal (anthracite) 227

Add to this the relative heating inefficiency of woodburning appliances, and this looks even worse for wood, CO2-wise.
 
Dune said:
Now for the even more extreme method of my brother in a nearby town. On his six acre farm, he harvests locust. He sells cords of locust for $400, all he can porduce. It is that good of a fuel. The tops are then gassifed, in a charcoal producing gasifier. The heat from the gasifer heats his shop and home. All the charcoal produced is put into his feilds, sand, no other fertilizer is used. He grows a native crop, it thrives in sand, but his yeild is doubled in the augmented feilds. The stumps are left in the feilds, he plants around them. Again, truly and fully carbon negative, not only at his farm, but at the homes of those who burn his fuel.

Wood pellet users are also burning carbon negative, since the pellets are a by-product of durable wood manufactured goods. The pellets are burned, but the majority of the tree becomes locked in a home or furniture.

Could you please explain how these practices are carbon negative? The case of your brother seems like simply a very efficient use of fuel. And the wood pellets as byproducts...I don't see what difference this makes. I see the point about the CO2 sequestration in furniture (and I agree that making more things of wood would help out with CO2 sequestration and have lots of other benefits), but that seems to be independent of what we do with the byproducts. Carbon is removed from the atmosphere by farming a tree and then making a table out of it, but the part of the process where the byproducts are burned is, from the point of view of carbon in the atmosphere, a bad thing; making MDF or OSB out of it would be carbon negative, but burning the byproducts actually releases that CO2.
 
Truly I cannot answer in a way you would comprehend, unlike our esteemed chemist freind Adios Pantaloons, I have not practiced my empirical scientific training.
I can however point out some facts you may not consider, though I have no hard data and can only make asumptions as to the outcome.

1. Some of the carbon sequestered from the atmosphere during the growth of a tree remains in the earth. I do not know what percentage, I do remember clearly from my chemistry professor however, that all of the carbon in a plant is derived from the atmosphere.

2. A large oak tree produces a ton or more of leaves in a year, each year of it's entire life. The leaves, minus water and trace minerals are entirely carbon. Some of this is sequestered in the earth.

3. In the case of bio-char or pellets, certainly more carbon is sequestered between the root system, leaves, product made from the wood, than the amount released by burning. You simply can't release all the carbon collected from the atmosphere during the life of a tree, unless one where to burn the entire tree, and all the roots and leaves the tree produced. The ratio is even greater for trees used for timber products, if the waste of processing is used as pellets, only a small percentage of the carbon the tree collected during it's lifespan is released in burning the pellets, hence carbon negative: more carbon from the tree is stored than released upon burning.

The only true and complete solution is solar and it's derivatives,wind, hydro, wood. As the sun stikes the earth with an average worldwide of 1000 watts per square meter, such could readily meet the worlds energy needs were it not for the oil companies lies and those of the ignorant, evil politicians owned by them.

This is why I virilently opose things that I fear may sway the opinion of fence sitters, those uncertain whether heating with wood will help the ecology of the world or hurt it. Responsible use of wood fuel helps.
 
SmokeyTheBear said:
Wood Duck said:
Is Dr. Kevorkian still a doctor? Sure he is!

I believe his license to practice was revoked, therefor he is not a doctor anymore.

Well, he still has an M.D., so he is a doctor, but can't act as one. (But he's in prison still, right? So revoking his licence is merely symbolic.)

This suggests that one could in fact be a treehugger without actually practicing treehugging. Hmmm.
 
In rereading your post again, I fear we may be trapped in semantics as you observed.
 
Dune said:
This is why I virilently opose things that I fear may sway the opinion of fence sitters, those uncertain whether heating with wood will help the ecology of the world or hurt it. Responsible use of wood fuel helps.

Fair enough. But I oppose encouraging people to engage in some practice (such as wood burning) and using terms to describe it that make it seem as if those people engaging in the practice are doing more good/less harm than they think they are. This kind of deception is pervasive.

What I refer to is this: I assume that my life would be carbon neutral were I never to have been born (since then I'd have no net impact on carbon in the atmosphere); hang onto this thought for a moment. Now, in your points #1,2 and 3, you explain that something is carbon negative if more carbon is stored (by the tree growing) than released (by me burning it). OK. But: consider the two situations (A) I am never born, and (B) I'm born and spend my whole life engaging only in 'carbon negative' practices. So, which situation, (A) or (B) results in more carbon released? That's right: (B), the situation in which I engage in so-called 'carbon-negative' practices.

Related example: have you ever noticed that we usually say that fuel-efficient cars get "more miles to the gallon" rather than "less gas per mile". This is not a trivial point. We think we are doing some great good by buying a Prius, but it may turn out that we simply drive more ("I don't feel so bad driving to work instead of biking on the rainy days because of this great new Prius!"). Shnookered again!

(Edit: again, I was typing as you posted, Dune, so this post just confirms yours. You think sematics a trivial matter, I suspect. I think it deeply important.)
 
Ah, But perhaps during your lifespan your influence upon others will result in less carbon being released than if you had not existed. This is certainly my hope, to leave the world a better place than had I not been born.
 
Dune said:
And then, when gentrification is complete, and I simply can't pay the taxes on my paid for, energy-cost free home, some banker or insurance agent will bulldoze down my 10,000 to 20,000 man hours of labor, and scrounged/cheap materials and install an $11/gal oil burner in a new Mcmansion.

You have no idea how close to the truth that statement is in my case, looking out over my little apple orchard and wondering when someone will decide my house is worth more as development land and tax me off my land, and throwing away 25 years of hard work building up a cosy little home with my woodburner and wife by my side........
 
woodchip said:
Dune said:
And then, when gentrification is complete, and I simply can't pay the taxes on my paid for, energy-cost free home, some banker or insurance agent will bulldoze down my 10,000 to 20,000 man hours of labor, and scrounged/cheap materials and install an $11/gal oil burner in a new Mcmansion.

You have no idea how close to the truth that statement is in my case, looking out over my little apple orchard and wondering when someone will decide my house is worth more as development land and tax me off my land, and throwing away 25 years of hard work building up a cosy little home with my woodburner and wife by my side........

Yeah, I didn't say it to be cute. Comes under the "Sad but true" catagory.
 
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