HOLY BLACKSMITH!! My stove pipe was RED HOT today!!

begreen · Dec 20, 2010

forby said:
Good possibility regarding the wood and outgassing....... The stove was particularly full in the back with small pieces going between the tubes.

If I didn't have a stove with a 3 year history of slow starts and such low temps, I would have been there. I used to do that the first year, but it would take 30 minutes to get up to a temp that would allow me to even close the door!!

Often outer sapwood is less dense than heartwood. Different splits from the same tree can burn at different rates.

If there is one thing I have learned since burning wood, it's that even the color of my underwear will affect how a stove burns!

I thought it was the opposite. The way the stove burns seems to affect the color of some folk's underwear. :lol:

Battenkiller · Dec 20, 2010

BeGreen said:
forby said:

If there is one thing I have learned since burning wood, it's that even the color of my underwear will affect how a stove burns!

Click to expand...

I thought it was the opposite. The way the stove burns seems to affect the color of some folk's underwear. :lol:

ROFL! That's the best come back line I've seen here yet. ;-)

Forby, sounds like a "Perfect Storm" situation to me. Maybe drier wood than you're used to using, a fortuitous (or not fortuitous in this case) lay of the load in the box, just the right amount of air coming in the door to create high air velocity (caused by the only slightly cracked door as mentioned by others) but not enough to cool the gases, all leading to a positive feedback loop as increasingly higher flue temps create increasing stronger draft until you have a classic runaway stove on your hands.

One thing's for sure. Your flue gases weren't just sitting there "hovering" away. At close to 2000Âº internal gas temps, they were flying up the chimney faster than that big ol' exhaust fan sucks the air out of your kitchen.

woodchip · Dec 20, 2010

Jags said:
A cracked open door will create an air "rush" that open doors will not. Not saying that was the cause of your issue, just saying that open doors is not equal to a cracked door.

I agree, it's like putting a blower on the flames which will send them out of control.

We have a rule here, the door may not be left open, the person who opens the door must keep their hand on the handle, if they leave, the door must be left properly shut.

fire_man · Dec 20, 2010

Forby:

When you "cracked" the door and left, was it open less that usual? A door that is only open a little bit tends to increase the velocity of the air blown into the firebox, as opposed to a door open further. The higher velocity air fans the flame faster. I'm just wondering if that's why things went thermo-nuclear this time.

Looks like some others had the same idea before I got this post out....

Kenster · Dec 20, 2010

Forby, you say you always clean the flue from bottom up. When was the last time you cleaned your cap and screen? A clogged screen could explain your problems with having to always leave the door open to get a good fire. Poor draft.

Backwoods Savage · Dec 20, 2010

forby said:
OMG.... Iv'e never seen that before!!

My Jotul f600 is on it's 3rd season. I started the stove this am the same way as always. I raked the coals even, tossed on some cedar kindling(1x1 inches), added some oak crossways(3x3 inches) and finally another few rows with a big piece on top. I blew a few times to get it started and as usual, it started slowly. I left the side door cracked open a bit to keep it going and went u[stairs for my morning coffee.

About 35 minutes later, I smell the familiar smell of a new stove breaking in.... I ran down to find the collar that exits the stove glowing red hot!! I checked with the laser and it was 1,050 degrees. The stovetop thermo was 495 and as usual the termo reported up to 900 near the center of the stovetop and it confirmed the accuracy of the stovetop thermo at 495ish.

What the heck????? I turned the air all the way down and the temps slowly came down.

BTW, i just emptied the ashes before the restart and doubled checked the ashpan door. I check it EVERYTIME I touch the stove. Yes, a little paranoid.

The only thing I did differently was to turn on the exhaust fan above the stove to try and draw some heat upstairs quickly. I have a bi-level home withe the stove downstairs. Did the high volume exhaust fan keep the draft too slow and cause heat to build up in the collar? Is it possible to have that happen without smoke rolling out?

Did I damage anything?

Worried now.......

Everyone can talk all they want about what happened but the simple thing that happened is in bold in the Quote.

Nobody should leave a stove door cracked and then leave the room! Simply put, that is asking for a disaster. I hope this was a wake-up call that you can not tend the stove if you are in another room.

firefighterjake · Dec 21, 2010

Backwoods Savage said:
forby said:

OMG.... Iv'e never seen that before!!

My Jotul f600 is on it's 3rd season. I started the stove this am the same way as always. I raked the coals even, tossed on some cedar kindling(1x1 inches), added some oak crossways(3x3 inches) and finally another few rows with a big piece on top. I blew a few times to get it started and as usual, it started slowly. I left the side door cracked open a bit to keep it going and went u[stairs for my morning coffee.

About 35 minutes later, I smell the familiar smell of a new stove breaking in.... I ran down to find the collar that exits the stove glowing red hot!! I checked with the laser and it was 1,050 degrees. The stovetop thermo was 495 and as usual the termo reported up to 900 near the center of the stovetop and it confirmed the accuracy of the stovetop thermo at 495ish.

What the heck????? I turned the air all the way down and the temps slowly came down.

BTW, i just emptied the ashes before the restart and doubled checked the ashpan door. I check it EVERYTIME I touch the stove. Yes, a little paranoid.

The only thing I did differently was to turn on the exhaust fan above the stove to try and draw some heat upstairs quickly. I have a bi-level home withe the stove downstairs. Did the high volume exhaust fan keep the draft too slow and cause heat to build up in the collar? Is it possible to have that happen without smoke rolling out?

Did I damage anything?

Worried now.......

Click to expand...

Everyone can talk all they want about what happened but the simple thing that happened is in bold in the Quote.

Nobody should leave a stove door cracked and then leave the room! Simply put, that is asking for a disaster. I hope this was a wake-up call that you can not tend the stove if you are in another room.

Agreed . . . a dangerous habit . . . whether it's one time or done frequently.

SKIN052 · Dec 21, 2010

Jags said:
A cracked open door will create an air "rush" that open doors will not. Not saying that was the cause of your issue, just saying that open doors is not equal to a cracked door.

Sounds to me like it got away from you a bit. That collar is going to be the hottest spot on the stove during a start up procedure involving an open door (flames getting sucked up the stack). Needing the door to be open on startup for 20 min. is cause for some thought. How tall is your stack? Pipe or tile? Size? When was your wood SPLIT ( I know you gave dates above, but you said cut, not split so I am just fact checking).

A stove dieing after 5 min of start up is problematic. Constant run at just under full open isn't right either. Requiring 20 min. of cracked open door before it will maintain fire - ain't good. Sum ting ain't kosher.

Jags hit the nail on the head right there, something is not right. No way in hell should you have to run that stove at full open to maintain a good fire. I don't care who installed it. If everything was good with your system you would have seen more than one red hot flue by now with that method. Heack I have the flue smoking not long ago after 15 -20 minutes on half air. The main problem right now is that you don't seem to think you have any problem. Since you seem comfortable with this then I guess I am the one with the problem. I really don't like hearing about someone doing something wrong and thinking it is just fine.

I hope that I am not coming off as rude or sarcastic, it is hard to convey a message in the right tone sometime on the Internet. If you are happy with your set up, good for you. Just remember in the back of your head, something ain't right.

forby · Dec 21, 2010

Kenster said:
Forby, you say you always clean the flue from bottom up. When was the last time you cleaned your cap and screen? A clogged screen could explain your problems with having to always leave the door open to get a good fire. Poor draft.

I clean right up to and into the cap. It is very visible from my second floor deck and with the aid of a binocular, I can see every edge of the screen. It is wide open.

The lack of draft issue has been since day one. I thought drier wood would solve the issue, but it helped just a little.

forby · Dec 21, 2010

SKIN052 said:
No way in hell should you have to run that stove at full open to maintain a good fire. I don't care who installed it. If everything was good with your system you would have seen more than one red hot flue by now with that method. Heack I have the flue smoking not long ago after 15 -20 minutes on half air. The main problem right now is that you don't seem to think you have any problem. Since you seem comfortable with this then I guess I am the one with the problem. I really don't like hearing about someone doing something wrong and thinking it is just fine.

I hope that I am not coming off as rude or sarcastic, it is hard to convey a message in the right tone sometime on the Internet. If you are happy with your set up, good for you. Just remember in the back of your head, something ain't right.

Well Skin052..... You certainly do come off as a bit rude.

I mean really...... what's wrong with a stove needing to run at full air? Doesn't that make it sort of "safer" to operate? If YOU get a smoking flue after 15 minutes, isn't that a danger? How many people can really "same room" babysit their stoves all of the time??? Is it not reasonable after 3 years to continue with a practice that has been proven safe in the past? Experience is the best teacher- isn't it?

1)My stove heats my house (2,500 sq ft) very well on 6 or so cords a year.

2)I don't have to check it every 5 minutes to carefully manage a delicate draft that can cause a meltdown if not "just right".

3)I get little or no creosote from my system and burning style. 1/4 cup per year

4)I can leave my mother-in-law in charge when I go to work and she can manage just fine(farm girl).

5)Load it at night and have coals in am.

6)Never overheated "stove"- not once.

OK.... so the single wall collar got to 1,050 once. Maybe the door was cracked too little this time causing a rush. Whoever hasn't made a small error has simply yet to do so. Maybe my high volume exhaust fan caused hot gasses to hang in the collar? I'm running a few tests to see what was the cause.

I was not looking to be chastised. I was not looking for a solution to a draft problem that isn't a problem for me. Actually it's a benefit in that I don't worry about a runaway stove and I'd like to keep it that way. I can raise my chimney 3 or 4 feet and probably get better draft. Then I can spend more time watching and worrying about overtemps.....

I was looking for ideas regarding the situation and got some from several members- thank you for the ideas.

I'll let you all know the results of my tests.......

SKIN052 · Dec 21, 2010

First of all, my apologies. If you are fine with the way things are then so be it, I am the one that is wrong. Maybe running a stove wide open is the best way to go.

iceman · Dec 21, 2010

Skin, when you run it wide open how many splits are in there? I am guessing maybe 2 or 3? If you are packing it full and running it wide open without getting some very hot temps (especially your pipe) something seems wrong? If I let mine run to long the rails and baffle will start glowing red ... the outside of the stove may be 500 or so but when my stove is at 800 or more no inside parts are glowing... point is be careful not to damage your stove.. but again, and not trying to be an @@s but something doesn't seem right .. could you please post pics of your stove and setup ? Some chimney shots would be great too..
It sounds like you are getting some draft as your pipes are clean, so we know its getting hot..
6 cords of wood seems a tad bit high but that would come from burning with the air open as you would consume more...
I am curious to see your test results..... what happens when you dont run it wide open?

forby · Dec 21, 2010

Iceman, I believe you were addressing me, but mentioned Skin052 by mistake.

I can run one, two or 6-8 splits and run full air. I usually turn it down because the room is too hot or at night to preserve fuel. I probably can count on one hand the number of times I turn it down because of high stove temps. High being close to 600.
Here are the pics you requested.

I don't know why they are off 90 degrees.. Not that way on screen..

branchburner · Dec 21, 2010

Jags said:
A cracked open door will create an air "rush" that open doors will not. Not saying that was the cause of your issue, just saying that open doors is not equal to a cracked door.

This is an important distinction. A cracked-open door can be like leaving the ashpan door open, increasing draft and acting as a bellows to provide extra air that gets the fire (and the flue) super hot. A fully-open door can basically turn the stove into an open fireplace, cooling the fire and the flue. Both are forms of "excess air" but with very different results.

I would never leave a door cracked for more than a few minutes, and never leave the room, for fear of overfire. But I could see leaving a door open for hours on end (though it would be a waste of heat) without even being in the house, as long as a fireplace screen was in place.

Is this a case of door open, or door cracked? A glowing part with door cracked for over half an hour should come as no surprise to anyone.

iceman · Dec 21, 2010

Looks like this is a basement install?
is that a 90 then say a maybe 2ft horizontal into another 90?
That's a lotta chimney to seemingly have a draft issue, but it does seem to be possibly a draft issue ..
how far do you turn down your stove? how far have you turned it down and what temps did you get?
is there spark protection on that cap? could it be clogged?
what else is in your basement? dryer, furnace, hot water heater, etc.
it could be your stove just isn't getting enough air...
during your normal operation, as far as the red collar that is simply from leaving door cracked to long ... it was Prolly a vortex trying to get up that chimney and the 90 restricting it because normally it should have been the 90 getting red..
try getting temps off your pipe , running it with so much air that pipe should be hot! if not we def know there is a prob. somewhere.

tcassavaugh · Dec 21, 2010

sounds like it was just a a little too much draft to me. My jotul really takes off if i leave the ash pan open or leave the door ajar. i normally plop right in front of it if i doo and once it goes "FLAME ON", i close it up and just use the draft control and the damper.....i love Jotul.

cass

Shari · Dec 21, 2010

forby -

Is this the same 600 you posted about last year that cracked above the ash pan door? Did Jotul replace the stove?

I'm agreeing with many other posters - a stove should never have to be run at full air all the time - something doesn't sound right. Is your chimney double wall insulated?

EDIT: Do you have a slight rise in that horizontal interior chimney section? I think rules call for 1/4" per foot.

Shari

jimbom · Dec 21, 2010

I am a rookie but I found the secondary air passages on my small Atlanta Stove had been plugged. Got the thing outside and figured how to get the power washer involved. Flushed out mud daubers debris. It made mine run a lot better with the doors closed. Mine is a cheap little stove that is made of heavy sheet steel. So it was easy to trouble shoot. I don't know how intricate these nice cast iron stoves may be. Maybe something happened in your stove over the summer to change things inside.

humpin iron · Dec 21, 2010

door open= too much air, bad habit unless your gonna sit there. The install looks fine, extremely similar to 29,983,344,000 others. But don't listen to anyone here....um gee, does the owners manual reference leaving the door open at all under operation?

forby · Dec 21, 2010

Shari said:
forby -

Is this the same 600 you posted about last year that cracked above the ash pan door? Did Jotul replace the stove?

I'm agreeing with many other posters - a stove should never have to be run at full air all the time - something doesn't sound right. Is your chimney double wall insulated?

EDIT: Do you have a slight rise in that horizontal interior chimney section? I think rules call for 1/4" per foot.

Shari

Yes, Jotul replaced it. The dealer came in and spent the better part of an hour going over it with a flashlight. He said there was no sign of over firing it, but there was some unusual discoloration on the ashpan gasket near the crack. He theorized that the gasket may have been installed wrong or the door was made wrong causing air to seep in. No signs of warpage anywhere.

I'm a little more timid with the new stove and I check the ashpan door handle EVERYTIME I load or adjust the air.

The chimney is Simpson double wall(I think).

Yes, a slight rise.

This has been a slow/cool burner since stove 1 and day 1. The spark arrestor is clear. I used to think it was green wood, but this is 2.5 years of drying now.

When the outside temps got to below zero, I get the hottest burn and need to cut the air due to approaching 600 degrees. I do cut the air daily, but that's because the room is too hot. At night, I can leave full load of wood and full air and never see temps over 500.

Personally, I don't think these f600's have enough air intake.

Otherwise, I think the chimney could be higher by 3 feet.

forby · Dec 21, 2010

humpin iron said:
door open= too much air, bad habit unless your gonna sit there. The install looks fine, extremely similar to 29,983,344,000 others. But don't listen to anyone here....um gee, does the owners manual reference leaving the door open at all under operation?

Again............ past practice showed no overheat with door open (3 years). Isn't that enough? I can't get hot temps with the door in any position especialy wide open. That said, I did "crack" the door this time. I will be more careful to leave the door wider open on start ups.

YES, the stove is rated for doors wide open. I can even get a screen for it.

Shari · Dec 21, 2010

forby said:
Shari said:

forby -

Is this the same 600 you posted about last year that cracked above the ash pan door? Did Jotul replace the stove?

I'm agreeing with many other posters - a stove should never have to be run at full air all the time - something doesn't sound right. Is your chimney double wall insulated?

EDIT: Do you have a slight rise in that horizontal interior chimney section? I think rules call for 1/4" per foot.

Shari

Click to expand...

Yes, Jotul replaced it. The dealer came in and spent the better part of an hour going over it with a flashlight. He said there was no sign of over firing it, but there was some unusual discoloration on the ashpan gasket near the crack. He theorized that the gasket may have been installed wrong or the door was made wrong causing air to seep in. No signs of warpage anywhere.

I'm a little more timid with the new stove and I check the ashpan door handle EVERYTIME I load or adjust the air.

The chimney is Simpson double wall(I think).
Yes, a slight rise.

This has been a slow/cool burner since stove 1 and day 1. The spark arrestor is clear. I used to think it was green wood, but this is 2.5 years of drying now.).

When the outside temps got to below zero, I get the hottest burn and need to cut the air due to approaching 600 degrees. I do cut the air daily, but that's because the room is too hot. At night, I can leave full load of wood and full air and never see temps over 500.

Personally, I don't think these f600's have enough air intake.

Otherwise, I think the chimney could be higher by 3 feet.

I don't know, this stove just doesn't seem to be drafting correctly. We need to find out if your chimney is insulated. Tell us how you are storing your firewood.

forby · Dec 22, 2010

UPDATE**********************

I started the stove with just a few coals left early this am. I cross stacked the way I did when I had the problem. This time I stayed with the stove for the first 10 minutes. I was able to close the door fairly soon today(10min).

Some of the wood sizzled slightly from the ends and only near the long ends(probably moisture that settled slightly into the wood).

I went upstairs and turned on a few vents such as bathroom and stove. After 20 minutes more, I was reading some temps which I believe were rising faster than normal.

Stovetop thermometer 475
laser at same location 460-485
laser of top middle 970
laser of connector(part that was red before) 885
laser of stove pipe above connector (1 ft above stove top) 680

Then I looked again..... WTH....... I turned off the lights and what did I see..... a very slightly glowing red connector !!!

The air was of course full on as usual. I turned it down and came to write to all of you...

So I guess it wasn't the door being cracked open the other day that caused it. It may be due to the excessive amount of exhaust keeping heat in the pipe or it may be drier that I have ever had wood(except for the sizzle).

Tomorrow's experiment will be repeated with the exhaust fans off.......

forby · Dec 22, 2010

20 minutes later.........

So the air was turned down to just below half about 20 minutes ago before I wrote my previous post.

new temps..

stove top thermometer actually rose to 500 and the water is boiling.....
laser of collar is 880
laser of stove top middle is 950

with all lights off it is barely perceptible red glow...... I mean you really have to look hard to see it.

What part of this is normal?

Maybe after 2.5 years I have finally been experiencing dry wood.....

rdust · Dec 22, 2010

forby said:
20 minutes later.........

So the air was turned down to just below half about 20 minutes ago before I wrote my previous post.

new temps..

stove top thermometer actually rose to 500 and the water is boiling.....
laser of collar is 880
laser of stove top middle is 950

with all lights off it is barely perceptible red glow...... I mean you really have to look hard to see it.

What part of this is normal?

Maybe after 2.5 years I have finally been experiencing dry wood.....

I'm not familiar with your stove but is 950 in the middle of the stove top an acceptable temp? That seems hot to me, what is the listed overfire temp of the stove published by the manufacture? What is the placement difference between the stove top thermometer and the place the laser reading is taken on the stove top? I'm wondering why there is such a large difference in readings.

HOLY BLACKSMITH!! My stove pipe was RED HOT today!!

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