The physics behind backpuffing or "whoofing"?

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Dec 26, 2009
29
West Tennessee
I've been using a VC Defiant non-cat for the last two seasons. It will backpuff of whoof every once in a while. When I say backpuff or whoof what I mean is that the stove will be running right along and then without warning it will puff a little bit of smoke out of the top-loading door. Kind of like it is blowing a little smoke ring. It never seems to backpuff when it is running good and hot with several splits in the firebox, or when there are mainly just coals in the firebox. It only seems to do it when I am trying to damp it down for the night with fresh wood in the firebox. It never does it when the air lever is open and there is no shortage of air.

I have spent a good amount of time observing the fire when the stove has been damped down for the night. What seems to be happening is that the fire gets slightly starved for air and the flames will die down. 5-10 seconds later the gasses in the stove will burst into flames. This process happens over and over if the primary air is cut back. It never happens when the primary air is open. When the primary air is cut back you can observe the flames burning away from the wood surface. The vast majority of the time the small explosion never lifts the top door. Every once in a while the explosion will be powerful enough to lift the top door maybe 1/16 of an inch and a little bit of smoke will puff out. Every blue moon the explosion will be strong enough to lift the lid enough that you can hear a little thud as the lid drops back down.

It seems to me (as a non-scientist) that the wood is emitting some sort of flammable gas that will only ignite when it has exactly the right amount of oxygen. In my occupation I work with the natural gas industry and I have been told that natural gas (methane) will only ignite when the oxygen level is just right. Too much oxygen-no ignition, too little oxygen-no ignition. I read on another post today that as wood is heated it releases methane or methanol. That seems consistent with what I have observed. The wood is definately oozing something out that is exploding (or better stated bursting into flame).

The reason this presents a problem is that I would like to load my firebox at night and shut the air intake down to starve the firebox of air and let the secondaries take over the burning. The wood seems to be cooking and forcing these flammable gasses out so that they will be ignited. The process seems to be erratic rather than orderly.

I suppose this same process happens in all stoves with restricted air supply. I wonder if it only presents a problem on my top-load stove because the force of the explosion has just enough power to lift the lid up slightly and the smoke puffs out.

Questions: Is my theory correct about the wood emitting some sort of flammable substance that bursts into flame when conditions are just right? Is this common with any stove with a restricted air supply? Has anyone learned any tricks to reduce this phenomenon such as tightly stacking the splits, charring the wood when it is first put in? If there were a little more weight on the top door would it still be able to puff out?

Any thoughts or guesses would be appreciated.
 
Is there a question in there somewhere cuz if there is you pretty much answered your own question. Weighting down the door is not the answer.

Don't charr it quite so hot and don't choke it back quite so much, so fast. How tight you load the wood, whetehr you place them over top the coals, how hot the coals are, and where the coals are, are the biggest factors.
 
LLigetfa said:
don't choke it back quite so much, so fast

That's been my experience... though my stove puffs very little, and very weakly. I think the VC downdraft design may make it more prone than other stoves to the problem, but I have certainly heard of it happening with many other EPA stoves.

There are too many gases, of whatever type, for the secondary chamber to handle. They build in the firebox to the point where perhaps the pressure helps ignite them? I wonder if it is a certain type of gas, certain oxygen level, or certain pressure level that is the key to how they explode.
 
When stoking the firebox, I prefer to pull the coals forward and not place so much wood on top of the coals. I put most of the bigger wood behind the coals and set it up for a slow, steady front-to-back burn. I also jigsaw puzzle fit many of the pieces so that flames don't travel between the splits as much.

A lot of though, has to do with timing it just right. Sometimes I may have to give up a half hour of sleep waiting for the coal base to be "Goldilocks". If I have too much coals, I wait. If I misjudge and have too few coals, I put on a couple of small splits and wait. Seems like I do a lot of waiting... Sometimes I fall asleep at the stove whilst waiting and have to do it all over again.
 
It could be that the flue needs a bit more draft. Backpuffing can occur more often when there is a condition that cools the flue gases. Some of these causes can be damp wood, cold exterior flue, size increase in the flue pipe, a long run of single-wall pipe (more than 8 ft) and/or fire choked down too soon. It can also happen with a too short flue.

From the stove manual:

Back-puffing results when the fire produces volatile gases faster than the chimney draft pulls them out of the firebox. The gases back up in the firebox till they’re dense enough and hot enough to ignite. If your stove back-puffs, you should open the damper to let the smoke rise to the flue more quickly, let more air into the firebox, and avoid big loads of firewood. You should always see lively, dancing flames in the firebox; a lazy, smoky fire is inefficient, can lead to back-puffing, and can contribute to creosote buildup in the chimney.

Just a guess, but the downdraft VC stoves may be more prone to this due to the thermostatic air control. If flue gases build up, due to stove cooling of a snuffed out fire, then the air control opens up, feeding in more air, the excess gas will ignite. Woomph. Then the stove heats up, thermostat closes and the cycle repeats.
 
BeGreen said:
Just a guess, but the downdraft VC stoves may be more prone to this due to the thermostatic air control. If flue gases build up, due to stove cooling of a snuffed out fire, then the air control opens up, feeding in more air, the excess gas will ignite. Woomph. Then the stove heats up, thermostat closes and the cycle repeats.
Back 30 some years ago, I had an upright stove with thermostatic control than would develop a rhythmic "bounce" and start back-puffing like crazy. I remember oil burners with barometric dampers would sometimes setup a rhythm like that too.

If a varying amount of air draw across the thermostatic damper can affect the volume of air, I could see it having the same effect but I think changing temperature demands would be slow to react and dampen it.
 
If a varying amount of air draw across the thermostatic damper can affect the volume of air, I could see it having the same effect but I think changing temperature demands would be slow to react and dampen it.

Yes, that's my thinking too and would expect this cycle to take 5-10 minutes if the thermostat was a contributing factor.
 
Blue_Tractor_Man said:
I've been using a VC Defiant non-cat for the last two seasons. It will backpuff of whoof every once in a while. When I say backpuff or whoof what I mean is that the stove will be running right along and then without warning it will puff a little bit of smoke out of the top-loading door. Kind of like it is blowing a little smoke ring. It never seems to backpuff when it is running good and hot with several splits in the firebox, or when there are mainly just coals in the firebox. It only seems to do it when I am trying to damp it down for the night with fresh wood in the firebox. It never does it when the air lever is open and there is no shortage of air.

I have spent a good amount of time observing the fire when the stove has been damped down for the night. What seems to be happening is that the fire gets slightly starved for air and the flames will die down. 5-10 seconds later the gasses in the stove will burst into flames. This process happens over and over if the primary air is cut back. It never happens when the primary air is open. When the primary air is cut back you can observe the flames burning away from the wood surface. The vast majority of the time the small explosion never lifts the top door. Every once in a while the explosion will be powerful enough to lift the top door maybe 1/16 of an inch and a little bit of smoke will puff out. Every blue moon the explosion will be strong enough to lift the lid enough that you can hear a little thud as the lid drops back down.

It seems to me (as a non-scientist) that the wood is emitting some sort of flammable gas that will only ignite when it has exactly the right amount of oxygen. In my occupation I work with the natural gas industry and I have been told that natural gas (methane) will only ignite when the oxygen level is just right. Too much oxygen-no ignition, too little oxygen-no ignition. I read on another post today that as wood is heated it releases methane or methanol. That seems consistent with what I have observed. The wood is definately oozing something out that is exploding (or better stated bursting into flame).

The reason this presents a problem is that I would like to load my firebox at night and shut the air intake down to starve the firebox of air and let the secondaries take over the burning. The wood seems to be cooking and forcing these flammable gasses out so that they will be ignited. The process seems to be erratic rather than orderly.

I suppose this same process happens in all stoves with restricted air supply. I wonder if it only presents a problem on my top-load stove because the force of the explosion has just enough power to lift the lid up slightly and the smoke puffs out.

Questions: Is my theory correct about the wood emitting some sort of flammable substance that bursts into flame when conditions are just right? Is this common with any stove with a restricted air supply? Has anyone learned any tricks to reduce this phenomenon such as tightly stacking the splits, charring the wood when it is first put in? If there were a little more weight on the top door would it still be able to puff out?

Any thoughts or guesses would be appreciated.

Hey Blue Tractor Man. You've been given some good advice. I just highlighted some things in your post.

A little story. We had an Ashley stove and it had the automatic draft control. I really did not like it that well but there were times when it was nice too. The biggest problem we had was when we wanted to stock up the stove full. So the fire would just get going nicely then the draft would close. Yes, there were some settings I could adjust and I did. However, when the draft was closed, no matter how I adjusted I could never get enough air into the firebox to keep the smoke going up the chimney. It would sit there and just sort of stall. Then when the stove got cooler the draft would open. The problem was that the fire then was getting good air but that smoke had stalled in the chimney. Then it built up in the stove until there was that little explosion. Once that happened all was well but it surely stunk up the house a lot.

That is pretty basic in what is happening whenever a stove does back puff. So the real answer to stop it is to keep enough air going into the stove to keep the flue hot enough and the smoke and gasses moving. If that does not happen, there will be the mini explosion. You stated the problem very good and the answer also lies in your own words. It is when you stock up for the night. You can not bank todays stoves like the old-time stoves and just shut them down. It just will not work. You must keep a fire going in that firebox or else smoke up the house.

And no, you should not weigh anything down. Just remember that when you have that explosion, the smoke, like water, will take the path of least resistance. Sometimes it will also come out the actual draft channel!


For our night fires, we do rake most of the coals towards the front of the stove. Then I like to place either a round or a good sized split in the bottom rear. In the front bottom I like to place a fast burning split. The rest of the stove is loaded with as large of splits as I can fit in there. Generally the larger the split or round the longer you can keep the fire going. Put all small stuff in and the fire will burn hotter and not last as long.

I hope this helps and good luck to you.
 
Dennis,
Nice post!
Dan
 
Thanks Dan.
 
Thanks guys. I have never tried moving the coals to the front. I have always spread the coals out and put a few in the throat of the secondary to help ignite the smoke. I'll give it a try and report back.
 
Most people do rake the coals forward every time but we usually do that only at night. Other times just smooth them out because we usually are not concerned about it during the daytime. If we are to be gone all day, that is a different story.
 
Blue_Tractor_Man said:
Thanks guys. I have never tried moving the coals to the front. I have always spread the coals out and put a few in the throat of the secondary to help ignite the smoke. I'll give it a try and report back.

Since your stove has a very different burn technology, you might also try what I do, which is exactly the opposite: move the big coals to the back to keep the AB happy. I don't pull coals from the front as much as from the sides, so I have a pile the peaks N-S, highest in the back. It can help keep the throat from getting blocked by the splits, but it also requires a bit more initial primary air before shutting the air back for the duration of the burn.
 
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