This one is all about running without storage - move right along to the next thread if you have storage. When I first started operating the EB in 2008, it was a big blue hulk that I didn't understand at all. One of the things you learn really fast is don't fall behind on a cold day - it doesn't have the ability to magically start cranking out 150K btus if it's empty and at a low water temp. You either use oil (not happening), or wait a while for it to recover. We all probably learn that lesson in a hurry. But then came a whole bunch of other things that were not as obvious, about matching boiler output to heat load. Smaller fires on warmer days was easy to figure out, and then came the start of the boiler shut-downs. We have lots of South-facing windows with a big solar gain, and discovered the boiler could be shut down for many hours on Sunny days, even on a cold Winter day (today it will be off for around 5 hours). Last year I expanded the boiler shutdowns in the shoulder season, and now it's frequently off all night in Spring and Fall - one small fire in the morning and another in the evening. These ongoing adjustments have all resulted in less wood used, and I kind of figured we had it down pat. Well, a couple of weeks ago, I made some adjustments based on input from the EB factory (well documented in a prior thread ;-)). That, coupled with some other improvements done over the Summer, have resulted in the boiler running on steriods. It's been producing so much heat that I couldn't figure out what to do - way too much idling during the nighttime load. Not thinking along the right track, I was trying to find a better loading pattern to cut down the output - even getting up 3 times at night to load smaller amounts. None of that worked - Big Blue is not going to be prevented from producing lots of heat, with any wood load exceeding just a few splits. Then finally I realized my thinking had been completely wrong on this (idiot). We had always kept the upstairs zone at 66, and dropped the downstairs to 69 at night. And then in the morning I would set everything back up before leaving for work. So finally it hit me that the beast needs work to do. Last night I left the downstairs at 73, and raised the upstairs to 70. From the small amount of creosote on the door, I could tell there had been far less idling, due to the extra heat load. And the amount of wood used was basically the same - all of the idling had just been wasting btus. So, increasing the load at night is likely to use less wood overall, because nothing extra will be needed in the morning (just a small fire to maintain the temp). The only thing left to deal with is my wife being upset that the house is much warmer at night :lol: I wanted to share this experience to remind folks without storage to continue to experiment with how you run your boiler, especially after making any kind of enhancements. As Heaterman says - become one with your boiler.
For those running without storage - never stop (re)thinking
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I've been burning one full load at dawn, and another at dark. Thats with 500 gallons of storage in a warmer climate than yours.
Sometimes I wonder if storage is worth it.
Sometimes I wonder if storage is worth it.
I'm definitely not sold on the idea of turning back the t-stat at night. I want it proven to me by having 2 identical houses side by side that it saves money and not run by some stupid computer program. It takes more btu's to bring the temp of your room items and walls of your house back up than would be saved by letting it alone.
I know my boiler idles a lot at night when I turn down the heat but I only burned 3 1/2 cords last year to heat 2200 sq. ft. ranch and hot water for four. I can't imagine burning a whole lot less wood. Although my boiler is 85k btu and yours is 150k. This might make my boiler rest a lot less than yours. I compensate by raising the temp in the house 1 degree per hour when getting home from work. This keeps it from idling. At night it would be nice to heat storage but I use very little wood at night and when I get up to crank the heat I can load wood on very hot dry wood and coals which gives me wot water a little faster instead of building a fire from a cold or warm boiler. With storage would I really save more than 1/2 cord per year? Oh well, it's been cold lately and have burned 2/3 of a cord this year. I might burn 4 cords this year, I don't know for sure.
wantstoburnwood
Member
I keep my thermostats turned up all the time , except the bedroom which is set to only 20 at night. Even the basement is set at 23 so when there's fire the concrete slab is geeting heat. Lots of days when there is sunny days I only light a fire in the evening and none during the day. The house is cooled off in the early evening but a few splits get everything heated up fast. Small fires do really work but turning down the thermostat just makes your wood smoulder longer whil you sleep. ( I have no storage and have been burning an eb 150 for near 3 years)
killick
Member
I have also made many improvements to my boiler. Some were made sooner using parts available or free and then when some extra $$ came along I made some more better improvements. Some were planned and some were just by experimenting, but now, like you, i often have much more heat than I need. Sooo, now I am thinking more and more about storage. I just never though my boiler in my situation could ever put out enough heat to warrant storage. Now I do, but storage is not a cheap project thats for sure. Tinkering does pay off though.
Mike
Mike
Just to clarify my op a bit - it wasn't intended to suggest that everyone should raise their nighttime temps. I was just trying to say that an old habit from our oil burning days was carried forward without giving it any thought; and that everything related to wood boilers should be evaluated and then reevaluated every so often.
For Chuck - I remember you saying in a prior post that you might try using your storage more like a buffer tank - did you try that? And have you tried bypassing your storage, just to see how the boiler heats on it's own? Don't know exactly what "lots of wood" means in your case, but maybe an air adjustment or something else can be done to tune your boiler. Maybe some of the Tarm folks can offer suggestions.
For Chuck - I remember you saying in a prior post that you might try using your storage more like a buffer tank - did you try that? And have you tried bypassing your storage, just to see how the boiler heats on it's own? Don't know exactly what "lots of wood" means in your case, but maybe an air adjustment or something else can be done to tune your boiler. Maybe some of the Tarm folks can offer suggestions.
What I have done is to bring my storage up to about 180*. Lower my boiler setting to about 185* max. Normally I would run the boiler at full tilt bringing my storage up to 190* or so.
Now the boiler is idling quite a bit and the storage is maintaining itself.
Seems like I would go through less wood. More boiler cleaning though.
If I let the fire burn out, I still have the storage to use. Longer total heat time.
I don't know if I'm on to something yet, I have all winter to find out.
Now the boiler is idling quite a bit and the storage is maintaining itself.
Seems like I would go through less wood. More boiler cleaning though.
If I let the fire burn out, I still have the storage to use. Longer total heat time.
I don't know if I'm on to something yet, I have all winter to find out.
ssupercoolss
Member
i burn a conventional indoor wood boiler. smoke dragon as its supposed to be called. no storage. i set my thermostat at 80, although most of the time it hovers around 65, where i like it. i burn once in the morning, and once at night. pellet stove will come on during the day if needed. i load it up with wood and let her eat.
i have a mono flow (i think thats what its called) system. i have 2 big loops going around my basement. one is the feed, one is the return, and each radiator is piped basically in parralled. its a great system, the wisdom is every rad gets equal heat, which means the temp in every room in my house is very consistant. however, it seems to me i have twice the amount of water to heat than your average baseboard system. when i tried running this on a thermostat, it seemed to idle way too much, and then when it did call for heat, it would use up all the wood before it could bring the house up to temp again.
i was reading a thread the other day, someone suggested putting firebrick over shaker grates to stop nice hot coals from going down to the ash pan. this was the best 5 buck i have ever spent. its like a different boiler. much less wood consumption.
i have a mono flow (i think thats what its called) system. i have 2 big loops going around my basement. one is the feed, one is the return, and each radiator is piped basically in parralled. its a great system, the wisdom is every rad gets equal heat, which means the temp in every room in my house is very consistant. however, it seems to me i have twice the amount of water to heat than your average baseboard system. when i tried running this on a thermostat, it seemed to idle way too much, and then when it did call for heat, it would use up all the wood before it could bring the house up to temp again.
i was reading a thread the other day, someone suggested putting firebrick over shaker grates to stop nice hot coals from going down to the ash pan. this was the best 5 buck i have ever spent. its like a different boiler. much less wood consumption.
I was wondering if it would help if I put firebrick in the bottom of my eko 25. I already have 2 U shaped ones but why not more firebrick? Has anyone done this? It should help hold more heat.
shoeboxlen
Member
ihookem said:
I run the same system as you and it heats a 2 family house with no trouble. I let it idle alot but have had no trouble at all with it. I keep the house at 72-73. I would look at your settings fan speds air inlets etc etc. check out the fine tuning the eko thread it should get you dialed in pretty good.
Nice to see when someone finds an improvement, posts the info, and gets others thinking along the same lines - it's one of the best things about this forum. As far as as a conventional indoor wood boiler being a smoke dragon; that's probably more a function of the quality of wood being used. Sometime last year there was another fellow with a non-gasser who was upset because he felt the Boiler Room was prejudiced against all non-gassers. Actually, I believe that most of us now running gassers probably used a woodstove or some other non-gasser first. If the fuel being used is well-seasoned wood with MC less than 20%, it's unlikely to produce smoke dragon type output. But what we do get really heated up about are the people who burn wood they just cut that same day, topped-off with a tire and some used motor oil. Those folks are the primary culprits whenever there is an outcry against heating with wood.futureboiler said:
sdrobertson
Minister of Fire
ihookem said:
The older EKO's were shipped with a curved piece of refractory like pictured below. I'm still using mine, but if I remember correctly the newer models do not have them. There was a post quite a while ago dealing with this and there was mixed results if I remember correctly.
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Sdrobertson, I have the same firebrick too. They work good but thinking of putting more in. I might just put a dozen little ones in that are used for fireplaces. It should hold more heat but don't know if it might hurt by reducing the air space in the lower box. Can't see why it would hurt to try though. P.s, the Lions are looking up some, they should be good next year.
Nofossil has done some experiments with building some labrynth-like structures in the bottom chamber-- if you search you may be able to find that thread, which had photos.
Mass alone probably won't add much; creating extra very-hot surface/ turbulence/ residence time might...
Mass alone probably won't add much; creating extra very-hot surface/ turbulence/ residence time might...
Would it help to wrap my eko with sheets of foam, like around the sides, the top and back? I noticed the mice crawling up behind the steel and digging in the fiberglass insulation. It doesn't look like it's well insulated. Has anyone done this?
I'm sure setting thermostats down help save energy. It's a good idea with forced air/ nat. gas. With hydronics it's a hassle cause it takes much longer to get water temps up than air temps. This is why I don't turn down the thermostat down more than 5* at night. (65*)
muncybob
Minister of Fire
ihookem said:
I agree...our thermostats set temps back about 4 degrees around a half hour before we head off to bed...back to "normal" about a half hour before we rise in the morning. Seems to work well as the house stays wram while we are up usually watching TV at night and warms back up again before we throw the bed covers off in the morning.
AndrewChurchill
Minister of Fire
I don't need two identical houses side by side to know that turning back the thermostat saves fuel. I use programmable t-stats and during the week I turn the temp down to 55 F when my wife and I are at work and on the weekends I keep the house at the same temp all day long. I turn all the t-stats down at night at the same time and they all turn back up at the same time for both week nights and weekend nights.
On the weekends I burn about 1/2 to 1 bag more pellets than I do during the week.
On the weekends I burn about 1/2 to 1 bag more pellets than I do during the week.
tbsdolmar said:
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