madison
Minister of Fire
Big box stores also get downgraded versions of a product, so Brand X item 123456a at Lowes, maybe of a different quality than Brand X item 123456 purchased from the mfg. or registered retailer
Is my stove shop trying to rip me off on a class A chimney for a wood stove?
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Renovation
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madison said:
That's a good point. I found that with lawn mowers. Lowes and HD had lower quality but similar models of the same brands as dedicated mower retailers. A casual shopper wouldn't notice, which I guess is the point.
ddddddden
Minister of Fire
See "Dealers for SuperVent" thread. Lowe's & Menard's get SuperVent, and it's shiny on the outside. Dealers get SuperPro, which has a dull finish. . .possibly a higher grade of stainless. I've looked at this stuff in person. Seems "acceptbly beefy" to me. 3' weighs ~ 20 lbs. I was considering using it inside my 12 x 12 chimney instead of flex liner + insulation, which would cost about the same. Ultimately, I went with flex, because I couldn't see myself dangling 140 lbs of solid pipe down the chimney while standing on a ladder 30' up. Anyhow, this debate reminds me of the discussion of splitter motors. . .There's Honda, and there's everything else. My impression of pipe is that there's ICC, built and tested to a higher standard, and then there's everything else. I wouldn't pay extra to switch to a different brand in the "everything else" category. 
woodsmaster
Minister of Fire
LLigetfa said:
I have a $13,000 boiler system I just bought so I wouldn't say that I'm cheap. Just don't spend the money on things that are marked up 100%. How about that MTD spliter, Is that top of the line ? I don't think so.
btuser
Minister of Fire
It's a downgraded product. Good enough to meet the standard. What's the standard? Three chimney fires 10 minutes long @2100 degrees. If you add more metal what are you getting? 4 Chimney fires? If its tested and rated then it can be included in a "system" that has been designed for the purpose.
The chimney is only a part. If installed incorrectly either though poor workmanship or employing it in a manner not consistent with its listing/labeling you're pretty much screwed anyway. Just because you use the good stuff doesn't mean you can't screw it up, it just gives you more time. The extra .04 is not going to save you or your family for long.
The chimney is only a part. If installed incorrectly either though poor workmanship or employing it in a manner not consistent with its listing/labeling you're pretty much screwed anyway. Just because you use the good stuff doesn't mean you can't screw it up, it just gives you more time. The extra .04 is not going to save you or your family for long.
LLigetfa
Minister of Fire
No need to make it personal. That Splitter is not likely to kill us while we sleep.woodsmaster said:
LLigetfa
Minister of Fire
In the case of the Excel and the Canadian standard, three times as long as I had posted, not just a third as you suggest.btuser said:
I don't know why you guys are taking it so personal. If you can sleep well, good for you. I sleep better with my choices.
Yes, even the more stringent Canadian standard could leave you homeless if you don't exercise care. You know what they say about idiot-proofing. It's a moving target... The idiots keep making it more challenging.
woodsmaster
Minister of Fire
LLigetfa said:
Sorry, just trying to make the point that even thow it's not top of the line it will still get the job done safely and adequately. I don't drive a pinto but my vehicles are not cadillacs either.
LLigetfa
Minister of Fire
I think you missed my point about the Pinto. It was not about how cheap or luxurious the car is, it's about how unsafe the Pinto was with the exploding gas tank and how the government did not protect the consumer with adequate safety standards.woodsmaster said:
I don't trust the government to protect me with minimum standards. How many people have to die before the standard is raised? It's a personal choice whether to build to minimum standards or exceed them.
When buying a helmet, would you buy the cheapest one made to minimum standard? Perhaps you can justify it saying you are a safe rider and don't plan to crash. Perhaps you only buy it because the government forced you to. There are a lot of civil libertarians that object to the govenment mandating standards. At work here, our company mandated a "gloves on hand" policy to reduce hand injuries but failed to set a minimum standard for said gloves. Some guys are carrying the disposable gloves like a doctor may wear.
Ford built the Pinto the government didnt they can't hold the manufacturers hands and watch their every step. As with anything else it is a learning process. The chimney passes the same test as the more expensive product. I personally don't see .004 thousands about the thickness as a sheet of paper is going to do much. If the less expensive product lasts 10 years then 25 percent more would gain you 2.5 years or you can go with 20 years and 5 more years. For the price of one chimney I can purchase two of the other. This product is made by SELKIRK not LOWES I don't think SELKIRK is going to risk their name,reputation, or business just so Lowes can make a dollar. Selkirk has been in business since since 1933 they should know a thing or two about the product they build. How does 25 percent more thickness translate into 150 percent price difference
LLigetfa
Minister of Fire
There may be other considerations besides just the wall thickness. Are they the same or a different grade of metal? Is the insulation the same quality? Is the outer jacket the same grade of metal? Do they both test only to the same minimum standard?
I'm not comparing the Simpson Duravent the dealer quoted the OP with whatever Lowes is selling. I never have. I was simply commenting on the higher standard that ICC Excel is held to and saying for "me" it is well worth the price. I also commented on how the US minimum standard is below the Canadian standard and below my personal standard.
I'm not comparing the Simpson Duravent the dealer quoted the OP with whatever Lowes is selling. I never have. I was simply commenting on the higher standard that ICC Excel is held to and saying for "me" it is well worth the price. I also commented on how the US minimum standard is below the Canadian standard and below my personal standard.
Back to the OP. I don't think your stove dealer is trying to rip you off at all. He is offering you a good product that he knows and trusts at a good price. How is this a rip off? To compare it with a cheaper big box pipe of a different brand (and perhaps you haven't accounted for all the pieces needed?) is not reasonable. Compared to online volume sellers - of the same product - your stove dealer's price is within a couple hundred. And that is easily justified considering your dealer has a store, staff, taxes, equipment etc. to pay for. They deserve and need to make a profit in order to stay in business. These profits go back into your community.
If you are happy with with the Lowes product, then go for it. But the premise that your stove dealer is trying to rip you off seems totally unfounded and unfair IMO.
If you are happy with with the Lowes product, then go for it. But the premise that your stove dealer is trying to rip you off seems totally unfounded and unfair IMO.
RenovationGeorge said:
I've heard it before and it was long thought that Wally World got crappy quality 10/22 rifles as well and it was proven to be pure hogwash. Now are there different (read: more economical) versions made specifically for a big chain store...sure. But the same product has been the same at ever store in my experience. YMMV
-Emt1581
seaken
Minister of Fire
BeGreen said:
Couldn't have said it any better. Actually, I am much more likely to put it in words that are not so diplomatic.
I am a dealer that faces this all the time. It always upsets me to be considered a crook just because my price is higher than the other place. I am not a crook but my prices are higher. I understand that not everyone will pay my price. I also understand that not everyone understands how my business works. I also understand that it is fashionable these days to shoot the breeze with the buddies and share stories about how we were ripped off by this store or that store. I get all that. What I don't get is why a business must be accused of ripping people off based on price alone.
I gotta tell ya, I feel ripped off when I go to Lowes or HD, or any other store these days and I cannot offer to pay twice the price for a decent tool box or a decent broom. I HATE buying cheap tools but I don't have a choice anymore. That's all the suppliers around me offer. Okay, I could probably find an internet source. But what ever happened to the local hardware store or supplier who knew your name and your needs and would order stuff to put on their shelves just because they knew quality contractors like you would come in and buy it?
Things are all out of whack. The local guys are considered crooks because we can't afford to buy products for re-sale at half the price the big discount stores offer for what appears to be similar product.
If only you guys knew what that local dealer was facing every day as the margins erode and customers become more difficult to please. I just shake my head when I read threads like this.
Go ahead, let the me have it. Nothing new here.
Sean
I was at Tractor Supply today and came across a TRIPPLE wall pipe. Here's the info on it...
DuraPlus Through-the-wall kit
6" Tripple wall pipe used along with all the other parts mentioned already (thimble, bands, cap, support, etc.).
Anyone familiar with this kit? It's $299 and I must say, not only does TS have that in stock, they also have a TON of stove pipe and equipment/hardware for installation. They even had a wood furnace there!!
Thanks!
-Emt1581
DuraPlus Through-the-wall kit
6" Tripple wall pipe used along with all the other parts mentioned already (thimble, bands, cap, support, etc.).
Anyone familiar with this kit? It's $299 and I must say, not only does TS have that in stock, they also have a TON of stove pipe and equipment/hardware for installation. They even had a wood furnace there!!
Thanks!
-Emt1581
ddddddden
Minister of Fire
Not really familiar with it, but it's Simpson. I have the same impression that Sauer does: Selkirk vs. Simpson = Ford vs. Chevy. The 3rd 'wall' might be the insulation layer. Quick web check says the outer layer is galvanized, stainless optional. This kit would be some of the extra pieces to which Mr. Green referred. I believe Northern Tool also carries some Simpson pipe.
I myself am not callng you a crook. As to your point about the big box stores and your local mom and pop store it is a sad but true point. What your mark up margin is I don't know and it is none of my business. I do know in my line of work that some shops mark up is 100 percent or more and in my opinion that is a little exreme. I would rather pay a little more towards labor and pay less tax on less mark up.
When you need a part for your vehicle do you purchase it from your local new car dealer or do you shop the local aftermarket parts chain stores or perhaps shop online for the cheapest price. Isn't the vehicle you and your family ride in something that should be as safe to be in as your home. At the end of the day you are the one who has to live with your decision
I am not trying to defend the big box stores just having a hard time believing Selkirk would risk their name and business by producing an inferior product just for the big boxers.
When you need a part for your vehicle do you purchase it from your local new car dealer or do you shop the local aftermarket parts chain stores or perhaps shop online for the cheapest price. Isn't the vehicle you and your family ride in something that should be as safe to be in as your home. At the end of the day you are the one who has to live with your decision
I am not trying to defend the big box stores just having a hard time believing Selkirk would risk their name and business by producing an inferior product just for the big boxers.
Renovation
New Member
emt1581 said:
I'm afraid you do not understand what we are saying.
The big box stores and specialized retailers often sell different models/products from the same manufacturer, that look the same to someone who is not paying attention. However, the quality and performance can be quite different.
If you found the exact same model at both places, that would be one thing. But generally that is not the case, and certainly not in your situation.
As was noted, a successful online retailer--and online retailers have to be very price conscious--charged a similar price to your local dealer for the same product.
It is correct to come to one's own conclusions about product differences and willingness to pay for them, but it is a mistake to think that the products in question are identical, or that the dealer was overcharging.
ddddddden
Minister of Fire
Sean, Emt could have phrased the topic more diplomatically, but his dealer did drop the ball by saying "No way that's double-wall insulated stainless(which is exactly what it is)," rather than something like "Bring me the specs, and I'll show you why the pipe I sell is better," or simply "Sorry, I have overhead." I'm sympathetic, but it's getting harder to make it on all sides. That fact provides the motivation for many to heat with wood. Personally, I blame the banks. I heard an interview with a money analyst on the radio. He said that banks historically sucked 15% out of the economy, and now it's ~ 35%. Doh!
You make some pretty good points there Den. Rip off is a bit harsh, the dealer could have communicated better,and most of us burn to keep from padding the pockets of the gas,oil and electric tycoons thus we are looking to keep some money for ourselves. The Selkirk chimney in question is rated from what I understand for 3 ten minute heat cycles at 2100 degrees farenheit. If you for some reason exceed that then maybe you should think about your burning habits or find another source of heat and please don't blow that out of context as a deragotory comment. I am just saying after 3 raging chimney fires something has to change
seaken
Minister of Fire
HOOSIERJIM said:
Suffice to say that all chimneys are not the same even though they all have to meet the same UL standard. I agree with the comment earlier about giving the dealer an opportunity to explain why his chimney is worth more. Nevertheless, I will not work so hard to educate a buyer who is convinced that I am overpriced. They either appreciate what I have to offer or they don't. I would like the opportunity to convince them to buy from me at my prices but I know I will not convince a person who cannot get over what I charge.
It has nothing to do with us 'ripping you off'. Our prices are where they need to be for us to stay solvent and feed our families. If you cannot afford to pay the price I understand. But why assume I am trying to rip you off? It's not good form.
When a customer comes in to our store we do not know who they are. We don't know if they can afford $1000 or $10,000. But I will quote my price. Am I to assume that you will go out of my store assuming I am trying to rip you off if my number is not right?
Please understand that this is not direct at YOU personally, the "you" in this case is the general buying public.
Dealers are people just like you. We don't want to pay more than we have to. But I hire a professional electrician to do my wiring, a professional plumber to install my boiler,and I take my cars and trucks to the dealer for service. The electrician and plumber charge more than I do per hour and I charge more per hour than my car dealer. None of us are trying to rip off the public. We pay decent wages to our employees and they still cannot live on a single income or buy a house, etc. Believe me, dealers are not the problem.
If more people on this board held back from assuming the dealer is their enemy they might get better results. We are very helpful people when we are not under attack. I was out Christmas eve lighting pilots, putting handles on dampers and resetting the dip switches on a control board. All for no charge. But I can't be so responsive unless my customers pay my rates to begin with. If I lowered my labor rates to what some of the numbers have been suggested here I will go out of business and go to work for Lowes or Walmart.
I know there are several dealers who read here. Most of us are willing to help. But this spouting off about how our prices are ridiculous is annoying. You do not know what it costs for us to run our businesses. If you come to us for help we are glad to help. If you cannot afford our prices it is not our fault. As someone has said it is probably more the fault of the bankers. The prices at Lowes are aimed at Do-it-Youselfers. Our prices are aimed at the I WILL NOT AND CANNOT DO IT MYSELFers (the IWNACDIM set). Remember, DIY means do it YOURSELF. And your mad at me because I won't meet your needs under the prices for a DIYer? Now that's ridiculous.
Sean
Getting hit over the head and having your wallet stolen is being ripped off. How anyone (whether you buy the product or not)having been quoted a price can call the merchant a ripoff is ignorant. The big boxes while not breaking laws destroy local economies. How much money do you save after you lose your job?
Where do you see $68? That link says the pipe is $89.
I paid roughly the same price for "Metalbest" pipe from my stove shop. I didn't even check with Lowe's since they did the install and everything.
I paid roughly the same price for "Metalbest" pipe from my stove shop. I didn't even check with Lowe's since they did the install and everything.
emt1581 said:
Renovation
New Member
NATE379 said:
Hey Nate,
It may depend on what you have set as your local store. I'm using Holland MI, and it says $62.
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