New Econoburn questions about chimney/smoke/residue

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G

goosegunner

Minister of Fire
Oct 15, 2009
1,469
WI
I have been running my Econoburn 200 for a few days without storage. Storage is in the works but not piped yet.

Things I have found;

1. Hard to determine how much wood to put in. Put in a few splits and think it will be good for a while is not always the case. Go out and they are gone.

2. Held temp overnight 10pm to 8am but it is making a mess of stack. (18 inch red oak just above the door.)

3. Smokes more at idle than I thought it would see attached photo.

4. Brown mess on the outside of stack.

5. Need to experiment with split size.



Boiler will recover fairly quickly after dropping below set point and it seems to gasify fairly easy so wood must be close to dry enough.


So why would stack look like this Wood to wet or too much idle?

gg
 

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Is that photo the "more smoke than you thought"? Looks very normal to me. When they idle they smoke a bit. But that photo looks pretty good to me.
 
Oak is by far one of the slowest woods to season. I'm generally a skeptic of the claim that all firewood needs to be seasoned for two years in order to be dry enough, but from what I have seen with my limited experience with red oak, I'd say that two years is a bare minimum needed for oak, and that after being cut to length, split, and stacked in a location where it is sheltered from rain.

Is it smoke or steam or a mix? Hard to tell from the photo. Steam will not be unusual, especially if wood is less than ideally dry, and especially early in the burn or after coming back from idle to full burn. Steam can be distinguished by the rapidity with which it dissipates a short way from the stack.

People here in the Boiler Room have remarked that splits averaging no bigger than the size of a playing card is best for a gasifier, and I agree. With wood that's less than ideally dry, you may want to err on the small size.
 
stee6043 said:
Is that photo the "more smoke than you thought"? Looks very normal to me. When they idle they smoke a bit. But that photo looks pretty good to me.
Click to expand...

Yeah that is idle smoke, a little more than I thought.

What about the discoloration and build up on the stack and dripping on the roof?

I think most of it is moisture but I wasn't expecting it to make that much of a mess.

I need to dial in the barometric damper. It was really windy yesterday and pulling the damper open hard. It may have beed cooling the stack too much.

gg
 
The problems should go away when the storage is hooked up. Did you have a bed of coals covering the nozzle when you took the picture? I think you are probably correct that the barometric is mixing in a lot of cold air. You might want to consider a cast iron plate damper & keep a Magnehelic etc hooked up to it. It takes awhile to get these dialed in, Randy
 
pybyr said:
Oak is by far one of the slowest woods to season. I'm generally a skeptic of the claim that all firewood needs to be seasoned for two years in order to be dry enough, but from what I have seen with my limited experience with red oak, I'd say that two years is a bare minimum needed for oak, and that after being cut to length, split, and stacked in a location where it is sheltered from rain.

Is it smoke or steam or a mix? Hard to tell from the photo. Steam will not be unusual, especially if wood is less than ideally dry, and especially early in the burn or after coming back from idle to full burn. Steam can be distinguished by the rapidity with which it dissipates a short way from the stack.

People here in the Boiler Room have remarked that splits averaging no bigger than the size of a playing card is best for a gasifier, and I agree. With wood that's less than ideally dry, you may want to err on the small size.
Click to expand...


I think there is a fair amount of moisture in it. The brown build up on the stack is actually icy. It dissipates fairly fast, less than 10 feet I would say. I will look again.

I have started splitting small pieces to through in on top of the coals. I have notice it recovers fast when I do this.

I can feed small amounts most days, but need to load and ildle on and off for 12 hours or so when I go to work 24 hour shifts. I don't want it to be a hassle for my wife when I am gone. Not the best but it seems as though it may do it.



gg
 
Singed Eyebrows said:
The problems should go away when the storage is hooked up. Did you have a bed of coals covering the nozzle when you took the picture? I think you are probably correct that the barometric is mixing in a lot of cold air. You might want to consider a cast iron plate damper & keep a Magnehelic etc hooked up to it. It takes awhile to get these dialed in, Randy
Click to expand...

Coals were about 1-1/2 inches deep but it had just idled after a reload and burn up to temp.

gg
 
when the boiler idles... does the fan actually shut off or is it just on a very low setting? One of their nimbus board fixes was apparently to try and keep the fan from ever shutting off by keeping the boiler in a low fire state where the fan just barely moved. This creates issues with condensation and creosote because the unit will not gasifiy with the new ultra low fan speed on low fire setting.

Not sure how your draft fan is operating, but if it's not shutting down completely on idle (EDIT:) and if you're low speed fan setting is too low... you will have these issues.

cheers
 
I had a lot of creasoat untill I got my water up to temp and the refractory dried out. My controler is bad and It lost power the first night I lit it. had a nice puddle of creasote water on the floore before I relized it was off. Still
didn't have the creasote on the roof like that.
 
For what it's worth my boiler rarely idles, very rarely, and yet the top 12" or so of my stack is covered in a pretty solid coating of "soot" (darker than your photo). My boiler smokes for 10-15 minutes every day during start-up and this is more than enough to discolor the stack (depending on the wind) in my setup. I never once worried about this. It cleans itself off in the spring after a few good thunderstorms...
 
Piker said:
when the boiler idles... does the fan actually shut off or is it just on a very low setting? One of their nimbus board fixes was apparently to try and keep the fan from ever shutting off by keeping the boiler in a low fire state where the fan just barely moved. This creates issues with condensation and creosote because the unit will not gasifiy with the new ultra low fan speed on low fire setting.

Not sure how your draft fan is operating, but if it's not shutting down completely on idle (EDIT:) and if you're low speed fan setting is too low... you will have these issues.

cheers
Click to expand...

Working in the boiler room today I was able to listen to the fan.

1. It does go off completely.

2. It goes to low speed at about 4 degrees below digital set point. When the boiler continues to rise it shuts off completely at set point.

3. It periodically kicks on to high speed for about 5 seconds.

4. At about 5 degrees below set point it starts in low speed and then kicks to high speed after it hits 10 degrees below set point.

gg
 
henfruit said:
How tight is that cap? Idont like a lot restriction. Just let smoke go.
Click to expand...

Cap is twist lock on the selkirk. I thought it would be best to have a rain cap on the stack. I may add a spark screen, I do see an occasional ember after dark.

Is a rain cap not needed?

gg
 
goosegunner said:
henfruit said:
How tight is that cap? Idont like a lot restriction. Just let smoke go.
Click to expand...

Cap is twist lock on the selkirk. I thought it would be best to have a rain cap on the stack. I may add a spark screen, I do see an occasional ember after dark.

Is a rain cap not needed?

gg
Click to expand...

Without the rain cap, you will probably get a lot of yucky brown creosote smelling water inside the boiler room when it rains.

cheers
 
Piker said:
goosegunner said:
henfruit said:
How tight is that cap? Idont like a lot restriction. Just let smoke go.
Click to expand...

Cap is twist lock on the selkirk. I thought it would be best to have a rain cap on the stack. I may add a spark screen, I do see an occasional ember after dark.

Is a rain cap not needed?

gg
Click to expand...

Without the rain cap, you will probably get a lot of yucky brown creosote smelling water inside the boiler room when it rains.

cheers
Click to expand...

Sounds like a good reason to keep it on!

Piker, Have you seen any econoburns that are controlled like my post above?

My boiler came with a page added in the manual with a color photo for wiring connections. It said it was for updated controller.

gg
 
goosegunner said:
Piker said:
when the boiler idles... does the fan actually shut off or is it just on a very low setting? One of their nimbus board fixes was apparently to try and keep the fan from ever shutting off by keeping the boiler in a low fire state where the fan just barely moved. This creates issues with condensation and creosote because the unit will not gasifiy with the new ultra low fan speed on low fire setting.

Not sure how your draft fan is operating, but if it's not shutting down completely on idle (EDIT:) and if you're low speed fan setting is too low... you will have these issues.

cheers
Click to expand...

Working in the boiler room today I was able to listen to the fan.

1. It does go off completely.

2. It goes to low speed at about 4 degrees below digital set point. When the boiler continues to rise it shuts off completely at set point.

3. It periodically kicks on to high speed for about 5 seconds.

4. At about 5 degrees below set point it starts in low speed and then kicks to high speed after it hits 10 degrees below set point.

gg
Click to expand...

I guess the real question is whether or not the low fan setting is still high enough to keep the boiler gasifying... if it's not then your going to have some smoke and creosote issues. If it is, then you should be ok. Like others have stated... you will get some wispy smoke at idle, and a decent amount of smoke for a minute or so after the fan turns on, and for a couple of minutes after the fan goes off.

I can't tell from the pics, but it looks like your boiler doesn't have a red alarm light with buzzer on the front? If they are changing the control settings to make the mechanical aquastat the overtemp, and the digital plc has control of the fan, I would still want to be sure that the nimbus board is wired to allow for the 2 second full voltage pulse on fan startup when starting in low fire.

cheers
 
[/quote]

I guess the real question is whether or not the low fan setting is still high enough to keep the boiler gasifying... if it's not then your going to have some smoke and creosote issues. If it is, then you should be ok. Like others have stated... you will get some wispy smoke at idle, and a decent amount of smoke for a minute or so after the fan turns on, and for a couple of minutes after the fan goes off.

I can't tell from the pics, but it looks like your boiler doesn't have a red alarm light with buzzer on the front? If they are changing the control settings to make the mechanical aquastat the overtemp, and the digital plc has control of the fan, I would still want to be sure that the nimbus board is wired to allow for the 2 second full voltage pulse on fan startup when starting in low fire.

cheers[/quote]

No alarm light, I will take a picture of the controller tomorrow.

I doubt the fan on low will gasify, I will look tomorrow.

Also the fan restarts in low at 4 or 5 degrees below set point. It then ramps up to high when it drops to around 10 degrees below set point.

I will have to check on the wiring to get it to start on high.

gg
 
goosegunner said:
Piker said:
goosegunner said:
henfruit said:
How tight is that cap? Idont like a lot restriction. Just let smoke go.
Click to expand...

Cap is twist lock on the selkirk. I thought it would be best to have a rain cap on the stack. I may add a spark screen, I do see an occasional ember after dark.

Is a rain cap not needed?

gg
Click to expand...

Without the rain cap, you will probably get a lot of yucky brown creosote smelling water inside the boiler room when it rains.

cheers
Click to expand...

Sounds like a good reason to keep it on!

Piker, Have you seen any econoburns that are controlled like my post above?

My boiler came with a page added in the manual with a color photo for wiring connections. It said it was for updated controller.

gg
Click to expand...

It sounds like this is the same control that is on all the boilers I have in the field (tc33?), but with different control settings. Like I said, they were grasping at straws to try and prevent nimbus boards from failing, but the stuff they were coming up with just wasn't right... it just didn't work. I think they are reluctant to change the actual wiring of the control because they would probably have to go through safety testing again... which is weird that they wouldn't have to go through safety testing again even if they changed the function of the controls which in essence is kind of like rewiring... I dunno...

At any rate, I think it's absolutely necessary that the boiler be able to maintain gasification in low fire. If it can't, you will satisfy too much of your heatload by the low temperature combustion in the upper chamber, resulting in poor efficiency and the production of excess creosote and perhaps condensate. The dip switches on the nimbus board dictate fan voltage... last I talked to them, they were trying to turn the fan speeds down low enough in low fire to prevent the boiler from ever cycling into an idle state where the fan shuts off completely (this to try an prevent low fire fan startup that apparently kills nimbus boards the way the boards are currently being wired)... not sure if your boiler is set up like this or not.

cheers
 
Piker said:
goosegunner said:
Piker said:
goosegunner said:
henfruit said:
How tight is that cap? Idont like a lot restriction. Just let smoke go.
Click to expand...

Cap is twist lock on the selkirk. I thought it would be best to have a rain cap on the stack. I may add a spark screen, I do see an occasional ember after dark.

Is a rain cap not needed?

gg
Click to expand...

Without the rain cap, you will probably get a lot of yucky brown creosote smelling water inside the boiler room when it rains.

cheers
Click to expand...

Sounds like a good reason to keep it on!

Piker, Have you seen any econoburns that are controlled like my post above?

My boiler came with a page added in the manual with a color photo for wiring connections. It said it was for updated controller.

gg
Click to expand...

It sounds like this is the same control that is on all the boilers I have in the field (tc33?), but with different control settings. Like I said, they were grasping at straws to try and prevent nimbus boards from failing, but the stuff they were coming up with just wasn't right... it just didn't work. I think they are reluctant to change the actual wiring of the control because they would probably have to go through safety testing again... which is weird that they wouldn't have to go through safety testing again even if they changed the function of the controls which in essence is kind of like rewiring... I dunno...

At any rate, I think it's absolutely necessary that the boiler be able to maintain gasification in low fire. If it can't, you will satisfy too much of your heatload by the low temperature combustion in the upper chamber, resulting in poor efficiency and the production of excess creosote and perhaps condensate. The dip switches on the nimbus board dictate fan voltage... last I talked to them, they were trying to turn the fan speeds down low enough in low fire to prevent the boiler from ever cycling into an idle state where the fan shuts off completely (this to try an prevent low fire fan startup that apparently kills nimbus boards the way the boards are currently being wired)... not sure if your boiler is set up like this or not.

cheers
Click to expand...

Thanks for your time. I will investigate further, hopefully I can get it figured out before I have any failures.

gg
 
goosegunner said:
Piker said:
goosegunner said:
Piker said:
goosegunner said:
henfruit" date="1294010620 said:
How tight is that cap? Idont like a lot restriction. Just let smoke go.
Click to expand...

Cap is twist lock on the selkirk. I thought it would be best to have a rain cap on the stack. I may add a spark screen, I do see an occasional ember after dark.

Is a rain cap not needed?

gg
Click to expand...

Without the rain cap, you will probably get a lot of yucky brown creosote smelling water inside the boiler room when it rains.

cheers
Click to expand...

Sounds like a good reason to keep it on!

Piker, Have you seen any econoburns that are controlled like my post above?

My boiler came with a page added in the manual with a color photo for wiring connections. It said it was for updated controller.

gg
Click to expand...

It sounds like this is the same control that is on all the boilers I have in the field (tc33?), but with different control settings. Like I said, they were grasping at straws to try and prevent nimbus boards from failing, but the stuff they were coming up with just wasn't right... it just didn't work. I think they are reluctant to change the actual wiring of the control because they would probably have to go through safety testing again... which is weird that they wouldn't have to go through safety testing again even if they changed the function of the controls which in essence is kind of like rewiring... I dunno...

At any rate, I think it's absolutely necessary that the boiler be able to maintain gasification in low fire. If it can't, you will satisfy too much of your heatload by the low temperature combustion in the upper chamber, resulting in poor efficiency and the production of excess creosote and perhaps condensate. The dip switches on the nimbus board dictate fan voltage... last I talked to them, they were trying to turn the fan speeds down low enough in low fire to prevent the boiler from ever cycling into an idle state where the fan shuts off completely (this to try an prevent low fire fan startup that apparently kills nimbus boards the way the boards are currently being wired)... not sure if your boiler is set up like this or not.

cheers
Click to expand...

Thanks for your time. I will investigate further, hopefully I can get it figured out before I have any failures.

gg
Click to expand...

The nimbus boards will sometimes handle quite a bit of on/off cycling before they start to have issues... and when the do have issues they fail to start the fan on low fire and just sit there and hum. You can generally get the fan running again by killing power to the unit. When you switch it back on, the nimbus gets a signal to give a full voltage pulse to get the fan running and things are good for a while. It's hit and miss.

I rewired a local boiler here, putting the high limit aquastat ( originally designed to cycle the boiler into idle mode) on the incoming voltage to the board instead of between the nimbus and the fan. When the nimbus board first gets juice, it sends that 2 second full voltage pulse. You will notice this if you shut the unit off and then back on again. All this courtesy of a fellow forum member "pybyr" who actually spent some time reading the instructions on the nimbus board. Imagine that!!

You're boiler is actually controlled differently now, so your plc would have to be reprogrammed to make this switch. The way they originally had the boilers set up to run actually worked fairly well... just that the wiring was a little off. Small oversight... but a big pain in the butt.

cheers
 
Thanks Piker,

This rewiring, and reprograming is over my head, hopefully I can get an electrician I know to look at the diagrams and make sense of it all.

gg
 
I looked at my Econoburn this morning to verify a few things.

Low speed gasiification Yes

Controller no alarm or light. The added instruction sheet says it is the Enhanced DFD controller.

I have included a few pictures of the items. You can,t see the low speed gasifying in the picture. the flash overpowered it but the flame was there and is slower, and more of a purple/orange color.

gg
 

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  • wiringinstructions.jpeg
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GG: you've definitely got a new and different control panel that has not been seen before.

Does your manual have a wiring diagram or diagrams that go with this new DFD control?

If so, I'd be intrigued to see what it consists of and how it is connected.

I'd also be interested in hearing a description from you of how the fan speed behaves-- in other words, what do you hear/ notice as the actual temperature reaches the set temperature (is it a sudden ramp-down in speed, or is it gradual....) and what happens if the measured temperature drops below the set temperature?
 
Pybyr, I was talking with Goose this A.M. There is no new wiring diagram as of yet. Just an insert stating it is the new controller. he has his set temp at 175*. The fan will be in high speed until approx. 170. Then it ramps down to slow speed. Once the temp goes approx 5* above set point(180), the fan shuts off. The thing that struck me as odd, and I specifically asked Goose about it, is when the temp bleeds back down a few degrees under set point, the fan starts up in "slow" speed. It does not go into high speed first then ramp down.
His aquastat is set at 215* per Dale so it is definately the controller turning the fan off. I'm also interested in seeing the new wiring schematic.
 
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