File this under . . . just F$%#@'n Stupid

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ISeeDeadBTUs

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Let me take you back to last January for a second . . . one day the GW overheated out of a clear blue sky. The GFI outlet had tripped. 48 hours later I was up and running.

Well, SNAP! It's January again. After walking the dog I put a few small rounds in to keep fired for the morning while I go get more wood. I go inside, have b'fast and take care of a few business e-mails. When I go out to plow yesterdays 8" of snow (in expectation of another 8" tomorrow) I pat myself on the back at the view of my VSF chimeney, warm house and lack of tracks near my oil fill pipe.

Anyway . . . I finish some rough plowing and as I am backing into my driveway I say to myself . . ."Self, why is the chimney smoking like that?" I go inside the residence and listen for the inside loop circulator, but I don't think I hear it. So I go to the GW and . . .

You guessed it. GFI tripped again.

Before I got the beast unloaded, half of the back refractory wall was orange. I like orange, but not there. Anyway, the shutdown/cooldown/restart only lasted about 5 hours this time. Better than 48.

But that GFI has got to go :shut:

Yet another reason I think solid fuel boilers belong outside.
 
I wired my garage with GFI and then made a boiler room in a corner (2 doors to get to boiler) of garage. I was showing my son in law ( an electrician) the new setup at initial firing of boiler, He said nice but the GFI"s have No place in a boiler/mechanical room. My 2 cents
 
ISeeDeadBTUs said:
Let me take you back to last January for a second . . . one day the GW overheated out of a clear blue sky. The GFI outlet had tripped. 48 hours later I was up and running.

Well, SNAP! It's January again. After walking the dog I put a few small rounds in to keep fired for the morning while I go get more wood. I go inside, have b'fast and take care of a few business e-mails. When I go out to plow yesterdays 8" of snow (in expectation of another 8" tomorrow) I pat myself on the back at the view of my VSF chimeney, warm house and lack of tracks near my oil fill pipe.

Anyway . . . I finish some rough plowing and as I am backing into my driveway I say to myself . . ."Self, why is the chimney smoking like that?" I go inside the residence and listen for the inside loop circulator, but I don't think I hear it. So I go to the GW and . . .

You guessed it. GFI tripped again.

Before I got the beast unloaded, half of the back refractory wall was orange. I like orange, but not there. Anyway, the shutdown/cooldown/restart only lasted about 5 hours this time. Better than 48.

But that GFI has got to go :shut:

Yet another reason I think solid fuel boilers belong outside.

Holy sh#t ! orange refractory !! Yikes, that is scary, especially being inside your house. I defintely agree that these boiler belong in a seperate outbuilding. How come the GFI keeps tripping?
 
If the gfi has been operating fine until now I don't really think the motor is the culprit. My circ is on one gfi and my blower is on another. I had a problem with the blower circuitry (relay/aquastat/blower) popping my gfi. It was the relay with its surge tendendcies that kept popping the gfi. I hard wired the relay but put a gfi between the relay and the blower. No problems since. One concern I have heard with gfi's and motors is if the motor is a non capacitor start. A bad ground may cause a problem too. Gfis are there for your safety and if they are popping you may have an intermittent problem that could be a potential hazard.

I looked into GW before I bought the EKO and I though GW just used draft with a relay to open/close the draft door. Maybe I misunderstood.
 
GFI's do go bad. My father in law, an electrician, has a tester that you plug into them and it leaks voltage to ground to test them by the amount of time it takes to trip them. Anyway that's how I think it works. If you need one in that application you could try changing it or put in a GFI breaker if that would work better. Just a thought if you really should have one there.
 
In the United States, the National Electrical Code requires GFCI devices intended to protect people to interrupt the circuit if the leakage current exceeds a range of 4–6 mA of current (the trip setting is typically 5 mA) within 25 ms. A GFCI device which protects equipment (not people) is allowed to trip as high as 30 mA of current; this is known as an Equipment Protective Device (EPD). In Europe, the commonly used RCDs have trip currents of 10–300 mA.
 
Blame GFIs on our electrical code requirements. Manufacturers cannot receive UL listing on some types of equipment with GFI protection.
My personal "off the record" advice to people who ask is that they make sure their equipment has a 100% ground to earth and yank the bloody thing out. I've seen GFI's themselves cause damage and injury that a normal outlet would not have. Around swimming pools and the bathroom sink, they have their place but not on a heating appliance. It's a matter of time for any GFI until it blows at the least convenient time.
 
Heaterman I agree, A lot of people think every thing is or should be protected by a ground fault. Read threw the NEC not required in to many places, that are not damp locations. You might want a GFI protected outlet in your boiler room. ark fault is the buzz word nowadays. There are all kinds off places that don't require GFI's that you would think they should.
 
just got the wiring done on my vgas 40. went to power up on gfi circut pop. well that was removed. no gfi running my $$$ investment.
 
I should have added: I don't know enough about those fancy modern gassifiers to say you don't need a GFI, but I would get rid of it too.
 
When I finished wiring my shop and had the electrical inspector visit, I showed him the boiler circuit and no GFI. He said it was required; discussed with him boiler issues if the GFI trips; he said still "required," then he complimented me on my wiring work, signed off on the inspection, told me not to forget to put it in, and he walked out the door. I think we both knew there would never be a GFI on the boiler circuit.
 
jebatty said:
When I finished wiring my shop and had the electrical inspector visit, I showed him the boiler circuit and no GFI. He said it was required; discussed with him boiler issues if the GFI trips; he said still "required," then he complimented me on my wiring work, signed off on the inspection, told me not to forget to put it in, and he walked out the door. I think we both knew there would never be a GFI on the boiler circuit.

I'm calling him anyway ... :cheese:
 
heaterman said:
Blame GFIs on our electrical code requirements. Manufacturers cannot receive UL listing on some types of equipment with GFI protection.
My personal "off the record" advice to people who ask is that they make sure their equipment has a 100% ground to earth and yank the bloody thing out. I've seen GFI's themselves cause damage and injury that a normal outlet would not have. Around swimming pools and the bathroom sink, they have their place but not on a heating appliance. It's a matter of time for any GFI until it blows at the least convenient time.

Grounding a boiler, What is the best method?

When I installed my Taylor OWB it required a ground rod and 8 guage wire.


Should my econoburn be tied to a ground rod or bonded to the water pipe anywhere?

gg
 
When grounding you do not want to use a separate ground rod. You do want to tie back to original ground at panel. One ground per service.
 
Thanks, My circuit is grounded back to the service so I should be good then.

gg
 
GFI don't like motors or distance either. My 350' 10 gauge cord from temp power box (my homebuilders) to my pole barn would trip all the time when we had our RV in there when our house was being built. That was 2 winters ago and we just got the EKO 40 running that January with a very simple heater connected. I wasn't about to run the EKO using that power. Went out and bought a standard breaker that fit in their temp box and installed it in -10F weather in the middle of the night when no one was around. I remember using my propane grill tank with one of those screw on top heaters to warm my fingers, etc. Good times. Would have been great if the shed had been insulated and EKO installed in November rather than January. I was able to run the RV propane furnace until we closed off and insulated the ceiling. Two 30# tanks would last 3 days in that subzero weather. Not cheap but we didn't have to rent a house and were right there to watch it get built. We burned less than a cord of oak that January thru March and kept that 30x60 pole barn between 75-80 degrees. Kids were 2 & 3 then and had a great time playing with their toys on a piece of 15x20 carpet. Good times.
 
My new Garn control box has a gfi built in it that the fan motor plugs into. should I worry?
 
It's just more P.C. Keeps driving the cost of everything up!! The insurance cost associated with all these products. Keeps driving up the cost of everything and driving down the economy!!
 
Overall I'm very satisfied with the GFI requirements, just less so or not at all in particular applications. A piece of equipment I was using shorted internally and tripped the GFI. That might have saved my life.
 
All great comments, Thank you :)

The 'stupid' part is my azz, for knowing this was a problem 12 months ago and not addressing it.

The electrician did it because it is outside (though inside the enclosed boiler room).

Thoughts on a 'fix'.

1) Also coming out of the GFI box is a wire which goes to the lights in the 'boiler room'. Testing the GFI, the lights don't go out. Looks to me like a regular outlet need to be placed on that wire.

2)While tracing backwards yesterday, I found that the wire supplying my 'boiler room' comes from my inside oil unit. I'm wondering if maybe that should not be. My rationale is that, if the GW trips the breaker, I am going to have no back up heat. This is also the reason I didn't re-wire a new outlet yesterday during the down-time.

Though I am not in Code enforcement, I work in and for local govt in NY and know many CEO's. Despite NY having adopted the ;National Code' it is amazing to me how many different answers you will get to the same question put to CEO's.

Oh, BTW, the good news is, the HX is yet again, creosote free :cheese:
 
Could some one site the article in the NEC that states the boiler has to be on a GFI, the only place I know of, is that if the installation instructions from the manufacture requires it. I have installed lots of every thing that get either gets hot or cold, very big and very small and have never had a unit of this type of equipment on a GFI.
 
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