powder chemical cleaner?

  • Active since 1995, Hearth.com is THE place on the internet for free information and advice about wood stoves, pellet stoves and other energy saving equipment.

    We strive to provide opinions, articles, discussions and history related to Hearth Products and in a more general sense, energy issues.

    We promote the EFFICIENT, RESPONSIBLE, CLEAN and SAFE use of all fuels, whether renewable or fossil.
Status
Not open for further replies.

Cal-MI

New Member
Sep 4, 2009
51
West Michigan
I used to have a tile-lined masonry chimney and a homemade steel stove. I had several chimney fires. No problem. Then I bought a can of powder and sprinkled some on the fire every week or so. It reduced the creosote to a gray powder that fell down to the bottom cleanout. No more weekly brushing required and only a tiny amount of residue to remove once a year.

But now I have a high-efficiency fireplace insert with a corrugated stainless steel chimney liner. The literature on the stove says to not use any chemical cleaner. Is this good advice? Why or why not?

The cleaner powder worked extremely well in the other stove with tile chimney.
 
Simply put, powders are not a substitute for a manual cleaning of the flue. They are useful, however, in making glaze creosote easier to brush by turning it into a form of creosote that is much easier to clean, as you've seen.

If you are burning a modern appliance with well seasoned fuel, you shouldn't have to worry about needing such powders.
 
I dunno what glaze creosote is. All I know is that the chimney used to choke up with 1-2 inches thick of black foam that required weekly brushing, until I started using the powder. No more cleaning and just remove the powder from the bottom once a year instead of large volumes of black foam weekly.

Well-seasoned fuel is rare (for me) and it produces more creosote than green wood, according to tests. NBSIR 83-2771

I hope my new high efficiency insert is not generating creosote, but I notice that its draft seems to be decreasing.
 
Cal-MI said:
Well-seasoned fuel is rare (for me) and it produces more creosote than green wood, according to tests. NBSIR 83-2771

.

:-S :roll: :-/

If you'd read the whole damn report and not just excise one line from it you might understand why that observation was made.

Buddy, they were TRYING to make creosote. In their efforts, they found a way to make dry wood make a lot of it. It doesn't mean that when you burn wood in a real setting that these results would be the same. But of course, you'd need to read the whole thing and understand what testing conditions the wood was utilized in to be able to actually make an educated statement.

Stop by here and pick up on the cliff notes and quit trying to justify your use of sub-par wood. Burn dry wood and you'll never have to worry again and you'll have much less maintenance and will be able to save your money since you won't be buying the chemical powder.

https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/67815/

pen
 
I have already read all of that, but it is irrelevant to my situation.
OK, it appears that so far nobody knows why or if powders are harmful to modern efficient iron stoves with corrugated SS chimney liner.
 
Inspite of Pen's twisted knickers, he has some very valid points, but if you won't tell us your situation, we not only can't help. but are reluctant to even ask questions,

That said, the mystery compound is perfect for use in your stove in your situation. To heck with the stove engineers and testing facilities of all the stove and pipe makers. You are right.,,

Just don't expect us to validate your position.
 
No one is saying it is harmful to the stove. We're simply pointing out this: using a powder is NOT a substitute for cleaning the flue with a brush. Creosote comes in different stages/forms. Glaze is stage 3 creosote. It's like black ice on the inside if your flue, and you cannot remove it with manual brushing. The powder turns it into a different type of creosote that IS capable of being removed with a brush. The bottom line, however, is that even if the powder does work to change the form/stage of the creosote, it doesn't get up on the roof and run a brush down the liner for you. Many people with modern stoves use the powder without harm to the stove...but they still sweep their flues when they need it.
 
Cal-MI said:
I used to have a tile-lined masonry chimney and a homemade steel stove. I had several chimney fires. No problem. Then I bought a can of powder and sprinkled some on the fire every week or so. It reduced the creosote to a gray powder that fell down to the bottom cleanout. No more weekly brushing required and only a tiny amount of residue to remove once a year.

But now I have a high-efficiency fireplace insert with a corrugated stainless steel chimney liner. The literature on the stove says to not use any chemical cleaner. Is this good advice? Why or why not?

The cleaner powder worked extremely well in the other stove with tile chimney.

Sounds like a recipe for disaster.. Start burning seasoned dry wood and this conversation will come to an end..

Good Luck,
Ray
 
so what is this magic dust ?
Had some of that shiny stuff the first year and it was difficult to clean out.
Got ahead on my wood supply and am now burning mostly pretty well seasoned ash.
Cleaning was not too bad last season but i'm thinking i might try and get up there midway thru the season.
Must be helping as the glass is staying much cleaner.
but
anything to make this job easier would be welcomed............
rn
 
raybonz said:
Cal-MI said:
I used to have a tile-lined masonry chimney and a homemade steel stove. I had several chimney fires. No problem. Then I bought a can of powder and sprinkled some on the fire every week or so. It reduced the creosote to a gray powder that fell down to the bottom cleanout. No more weekly brushing required and only a tiny amount of residue to remove once a year.

But now I have a high-efficiency fireplace insert with a corrugated stainless steel chimney liner. The literature on the stove says to not use any chemical cleaner. Is this good advice? Why or why not?

The cleaner powder worked extremely well in the other stove with tile chimney.

Sounds like a recipe for disaster.. Start burning seasoned dry wood and this conversation will come to an end..

Good Luck,
Ray

The problem is that all the research and papers I have read about creosote were written years ago and apply to traditional stoves that burn on an elevated grate and do quite well with green or dry wood. I have had 37 years experience heating with such.
But now the situation has all changed. Modern high efficiency stoves do not have a grate, have restricted air input and secondary air input, and need absolutely dry wood. I have found no research on such stoves, only anecdotal tales. I have verified that they do indeed need very dry wood. But I do not have any left. The best I can do is get dead downed trees that are cured, dried of the sap and checked, but retain ground moisture. I expect a couple months indoors would dry them out. But I will not need firewood in a couple of months.
For some reason my stove appears to be losing the strength of its draft. I am loath to go on the roof right now as it is steep and deep in snow. And I have minimal life insurance.
I did remove the baffle and look up the chimney. It appeared unrestricted for the first three feet and I could not see farther than that past the slight bend. But then I was stuck, as the baffle was too heavy for one person to replace unassisted. A couple of days later I was able to get assistance in replacing the baffle.

When the snow goes off the roof, I will happily climb up there and brush the stack and obtain muscular assistance in reassembling the baffle. Meanwhile, no one appears to have an answer to the question I asked and folks talk all around it.

The literature on the stove says to not use any chemical cleaner. Will the powder damage a SS chimney liner or iron stove? (THE UNANSWERED QUESTION)
 
Cal, if your stove's manual states, as many do, that burning anything other than seasoned cordwood will void the warranty, nothing that anyone other than the manufacturer says can change that. For example, burning wood bricks will void the warranty of many stoves. That said, some folks burn wood bricks as their main fuel with no problems. IMO, these days many manufacturers will add as many restrictions as possible in order to avoid providing warranty service. Other than catalysts, I don't know what material in a modern stove would be very different from that in an older stove. Iron, steel, cement, ceramic. I would call the mfr of your stove. They'll probably not have any particular objection, but will maintain that it voids your warranty. From their perspective, "chemicals" could be anything, some of which could do damage. I've heard of people using table salt, which would promote corrosion of the metals. I've read that the active ingredient in many of the bucket o' cleaner products is trisodium phosphate.
 
If you want to use something, I would take a look at the ACS anti creo soot products. If you don't like cleaning from the roof, the Gardus Sooteater is reported to work well for scrubbing from the bottom. It's like a weed eater attachment for a power drill + extension rods.
 
Cal-MI said:
raybonz said:
Cal-MI said:
I used to have a tile-lined masonry chimney and a homemade steel stove. I had several chimney fires. No problem. Then I bought a can of powder and sprinkled some on the fire every week or so. It reduced the creosote to a gray powder that fell down to the bottom cleanout. No more weekly brushing required and only a tiny amount of residue to remove once a year.

But now I have a high-efficiency fireplace insert with a corrugated stainless steel chimney liner. The literature on the stove says to not use any chemical cleaner. Is this good advice? Why or why not?

The cleaner powder worked extremely well in the other stove with tile chimney.

Sounds like a recipe for disaster.. Start burning seasoned dry wood and this conversation will come to an end..

Good Luck,
Ray

The problem is that all the research and papers I have read about creosote were written years ago and apply to traditional stoves that burn on an elevated grate and do quite well with green or dry wood. I have had 37 years experience heating with such.
But now the situation has all changed. Modern high efficiency stoves do not have a grate, have restricted air input and secondary air input, and need absolutely dry wood. I have found no research on such stoves, only anecdotal tales. I have verified that they do indeed need very dry wood. But I do not have any left. The best I can do is get dead downed trees that are cured, dried of the sap and checked, but retain ground moisture. I expect a couple months indoors would dry them out. But I will not need firewood in a couple of months.
For some reason my stove appears to be losing the strength of its draft. I am loath to go on the roof right now as it is steep and deep in snow. And I have minimal life insurance.
I did remove the baffle and look up the chimney. It appeared unrestricted for the first three feet and I could not see farther than that past the slight bend. But then I was stuck, as the baffle was too heavy for one person to replace unassisted. A couple of days later I was able to get assistance in replacing the baffle.

When the snow goes off the roof, I will happily climb up there and brush the stack and obtain muscular assistance in reassembling the baffle. Meanwhile, no one appears to have an answer to the question I asked and folks talk all around it.

The literature on the stove says to not use any chemical cleaner. Will the powder damage a SS chimney liner or iron stove? (THE UNANSWERED QUESTION)

You are correct on old VS new stoves.. I doubt that many chemicals would actually hurt a good SS liner.. Here is a link that tells you typical uses for different liner stainless steel http://www.protechinfo.com/c269/c9/Ventinox-VFT-c176.html .. You will have to make the call on this one.. Maybe you can get some oak pallets to mix in with your less than seasoned wood? Hope it works out OK for you..

Ray
 
hey all,
Thats more than i expected. Thanks for all the info.
Anything to make that job a bit easier is welcome.
Hoping that burning the dry seasoned wood will keep me from
having to deal with that shiny creasote............
Bumped the burn temps up a bit as well
We'll see how things go
rn
 
Random thoughts . . .

To answer the original question . . . I think Den summed it up pretty well . . . it really is up to the manufacturer of the stove and only they can tell you if using such a cleaner would void the warranty. Like Den I suspect the real world answer is that the manufacturer has the "no chemical" clause to keep folks from sticking in strange and exotic chemicals that could rust out the stove, ruin the cat if it is a cat stove or more likely keep Joe the Amateur Chemist/New Wood burner from coming up with his home-made napalm fire starter and blowing up the stove or severely burning himself . . . I suspect that the use of a chemical cleaner . . . like the sweeping logs or the chemical spray from various woodstove shops would not be a real world issue. From what I remember, it seems as though the active ingredient in most of these cleaners is TSP -- something you can or used to be able to get at hardware stores.

No subsitute . . . yeah, it's been said, but I'll say it again . . . there is no substitute for checking and cleaning the stove. End of story. There can be many excuses for why folks don't believe they should -- the cost, the snow, the cold, etc. and you can refute all these excuses -- the money you saved by using wood should offset the cost of hiring a sweep or buying the brush or even something like the Soot-Eater which many folks have had good luck with . . . and the sweep will work in the cold and snow . . . or you can simply wait and do things at the earliest time possible by yourself . . . and hope that you don't have a chimney fire.

The chief advantage of the chemical cleaners is not that it magically removes all the creosote from the chimney like all those ads I am sure we're all seeing on TV right now . . . but that it converts the shiny, hard creosote which is really bad into the drier, burned popcorn (which is bad, but not really bad) . . . some of which will fall down to the cleanout or stove . . . but to do the job right you still need to physically sweep the chimney.

The real answer here is not with the magical pixie-like dust (no offense to pixies, elves or Keebler), trained ferrets, potato peelings or Coke Zero cans in the fire . . . it's burning well seasoned wood . . . this is the ultimate answer . . . no ifs, ands or buts. Garbage in, garbage out . . . you are what you eat . . . and so on and so forth. If you put crap wood into the stove you will get crap out. The secret is to get ahead . . . the folks who buy wood year to year or month to month will always have a problem . . . and may be condemned to a life of chimneys crapped up with creosote, fires that are stubborn to ignite or fires that do not put out the amount of heat that their stove is capable of producing.

If you have well seasoned wood (and again there should be no excuses about stoves running better on unseasoned wood -- pure bunk), run your stove correctly with the air and run your stove correctly in terms of running it at the right temps (not too hot to over-fire the stove or damage the chimney and not too cool to produce creosote) you will have no need to buy magical concoctions to clean your chimney . . . but for those folks out there in hearth.com land that insist on doing so please let me know and I will start work on my very own special Firefighter Jake Blend of chimney clean out chemicals . . . I mean so what if it's just a bottle of TSP with the old label ripped off and a sticker with a picture of a smiling fat firefighter holding a wad of cash in both hands. . . .

Again . . . well seasoned wood is the key . . . many folks in their first year of burning or when they switch over do not realize this and struggle in their first year. Most of us do. Myself included . . . even though I had a little better time of it. You can survive and get through it . . . using pallets which are often free will help as it will "drive" the excess moisture out of less than perfect wood . . . that and you need to keep a close eye on the chimney and check and clean it more frequently. In the meantime newbies should consider buying the wood for next winter now . . . heck, buying it last Fall would have been even better, but you have to start somewhere . . . waiting until next Fall is not the time to start thinking about 2011-2012's wood supply. If you don't have the cash start scrounging now . . . it's all about getting ahead . . . take a chapter from the squirrel who builds up his cache of nuts for the long winter ahead . . .

Final thought . . . Good luck . . . continue to ask questions . . . keep an open mind . . . we're pulling for you and want to help you save money and stay safe.
 
firefighterjake said:
there should be no excuses about stoves running better on unseasoned wood -- pure bunk)

Maybe so, but folks here seem to be oblivious to the fact that there are other kinds of stoves out there than what they personally have. A stove that has unlimited, but controlled, air supply under a grate, wood on top of the grate, will burn absolutely green wood just fine. And with more efficiency than dry wood, according to USDA tests many years ago. I dunno whether that qualifies for "running better" or not. I never claimed it runs better.
A newer high-efficiency stove will not burn absolutely green wood unless you start it on top of a bed of coals. But I would not try nor recommend that in a modern limited-air stove. But it will burn 22% MC wood OK if you start the fire with dryer stuff.

Now, what sort thing is a moisture content meter and how much do they cost and where can I get one? I am currently, over the objections of my wife, baking wood "cookies" in the kitchen oven. <g>
 
Cal-MI said:
firefighterjake said:
there should be no excuses about stoves running better on unseasoned wood -- pure bunk)

Maybe so, but folks here seem to be oblivious to the fact that there are other kinds of stoves out there than what they personally have. A stove that has unlimited, but controlled, air supply under a grate, wood on top of the grate, will burn absolutely green wood just fine. And with more efficiency than dry wood, according to USDA tests many years ago. I dunno whether that qualifies for "running better" or not. I never claimed it runs better.
A newer high-efficiency stove will not burn absolutely green wood unless you start it on top of a bed of coals. But I would not try nor recommend that in a modern limited-air stove. But it will burn 22% MC wood OK if you start the fire with dryer stuff.

Now, what sort thing is a moisture content meter and how much do they cost and where can I get one? I am currently, over the objections of my wife, baking wood "cookies" in the kitchen oven. <g>

I suspect many of us sometimes are stove-centric in the fact that we tend to think more about the EPA stoves than pre-EPA stoves . . . myself included . . . but I would suggest that while pre-EPA stoves can burn green wood I would not say they burn "just fine" or with more efficiency . . . I would suspect that while these stoves could burn green wood . . . and there would be some heat generated . . . but at the same time the stove would also most likely be generating a fair amount of creosote . . . especially if run like many folks run them . . . i.e. dampering them down at night for a low, smoldering fire . . . that's not to say they're unsafe . . . with good wood and proper air they should be able to run decent enough . . . now as for the efficiency . . . not so sure about that . . . too many folks here have personally seen their wood usage cut significantly by going from pre-EPA stoves to EPA stoves to make me believe some old government study.
 
firefighterjake said:
Cal-MI said:
firefighterjake said:
there should be no excuses about stoves running better on unseasoned wood -- pure bunk)

. . too many folks here have personally seen their wood usage cut significantly by going from pre-EPA stoves to EPA stoves to make me believe some old government study.
I can believe that. I have not seen any recent studies comparing creosote production in various types of wood or stoves. The old studies were on an entirely different kind of stove and only measured total BTUs with lots of air. Definitely an apples vs oranges situation.
I have found, so far, that long dead fallen red pine that has 33% moisture burns just fine, once you get it ignited. I assume that there will be no creosote problems as long as the firebox is hot and I don't try to throttle it down.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.