Boilers opinion....

Spartan · Jan 10, 2011

A few weeks ago, I started a thread about pellet mills. Since then, I tested them and I can produce pellets.

So....on to question number two....I need some input about boilers.

I looked around the net and the first thing that looks like an interesting unit is the Harman Hydroflex60. Phoned the dealers up here and he told me they are about $8,000. Wow, that seems like a pile of money to me. Between the mill and the boiler, I'm not going to be able to make the numbers work despite the free fuel. Sooo....

Are the Hydroflex numbers real or is it the typical "Screw the Canucks" on price? Has anyone bought one and how much? From who?

Is the Hydroflex good? I don't know a single thing about them or any other pellet boiler for that matter.

I'm not afraid of maintenance. I maintain my own massive gas boiler at work (2M Btu) and furnace at home (75K). If need be, I can build one so I'm not worried about buying an off brand or from a US dealer and getting the finger up here. As long as I can get parts and particularly control cards, I'm fine.

It MUST have UL or more certification for insurance purposes.

As for operating questions.....how often do they need cleaning? How reliable are they? How safe are they? Smoke? Will they last ten years? More?

If you have chosen a particular one over others, WHY?

Slap me around with as much information as you want. Bury me. Choke me with it. Notice the name, I don't scare easily! LOL! You guys are my first and vital step to a fast accumulation of real knowledge (versus sales BS) and subsequent decision making.

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P.S. Whichever boiler I choose, you can believe that I will be around to support others who have the same one. I'm a firm believer in reciprocal back scratching!

ghangac · Jan 10, 2011

First thing you need to do is figure out how many BTU's you will be requiring.

The Harmen Hydro-Flex 60 Boiler produces between 0-60,000 BTU's, and has 3/4" inlet/outlet for piping.

The Harmen PB-105 Boiler produces between 0-113,900 BTU's, and has 1 1/4" inlet/outlet for piping.

I have the Harmen PB-105, and heat a old 1,400 sqft 2-story farm house, and make domestic hot water. Next year I will be insulating the 4 car garage, and also heating that with the PB-105.

For maintenance, I quickly remove any ash build-up on the top rim of the burn pot once a day, and pull the handle's on the boiler tube scrapers. Once a week I empty the ash pan, and once a month I perform a complete cleaning.

Fsappo · Jan 10, 2011

Can look into the Pinnacle PB150. Made in Canada. Should be a local dealer near you. If not, email me with your zip code and I'll find you one. Retails for about $7k. 130K btus, very simple, easy to work on etc.

Screw the Canoooks anyhow!

Pellet_Dog · Jan 10, 2011

I'm loving my PB-105 boiler. It's been running since early December and I have had no problems so far. It takes some time and tinkering to get it burning optimally and setup with the thermostat and type of heating system you have in your house (forced air or baseboard/radiant) but sure is worth it. From the above post the 60 is definitely a smaller boiler you will have to do some quick calculations to see if it provides enough BTUs.

Maintenance is pretty straight forward, total shut down and disassembly after every ton. I had been cleaning out the ash in the burnpot and scraping it daily during my first ton but since I gave the boiler its first full cleaning last weekend I have not opened the door for almost a week (I'm running it in manual mode; there's lots of other posts on auto vs. manual mode) and the bottom feed auger design is doing a good job of pushing the ash out on its own and the flame still looks great. Of course a lot of this has to do with the quality of pellets you are using, it might not work so well on a really dirty/clinkering pellet and you would have to clean and scrape daily. I will probably give it a scraping tomorrow to see if anything is building up under the ash.

I'm not sure what the 60 goes for price wise around here but the 105 was about 1500 less than what you were quoted for the 60 here in the states. Doing a self install will definitely save you a boatload, was that price with installation maybe? I know I spent at least 1000 on materials to get the boiler wired and plumbed up; if I had someone do it for me there would have been a lot more cost for labor.

Do a search there is a good amount of info on the PB-105 and other pellet boilers here. Hopefully we can be of some help to your decision.

Spartan · Jan 11, 2011

Pellet_Dog said:
I'm loving my PB-105 boiler. It's been running since early December and I have had no problems so far. It takes some time and tinkering to get it burning optimally and setup with the thermostat and type of heating system you have in your house (forced air or baseboard/radiant) but sure is worth it. From the above post the 60 is definitely a smaller boiler you will have to do some quick calculations to see if it provides enough BTUs.

Maintenance is pretty straight forward, total shut down and disassembly after every ton. I had been cleaning out the ash in the burnpot and scraping it daily during my first ton but since I gave the boiler its first full cleaning last weekend I have not opened the door for almost a week (I'm running it in manual mode; there's lots of other posts on auto vs. manual mode) and the bottom feed auger design is doing a good job of pushing the ash out on its own and the flame still looks great. Of course a lot of this has to do with the quality of pellets you are using, it might not work so well on a really dirty/clinkering pellet and you would have to clean and scrape daily. I will probably give it a scraping tomorrow to see if anything is building up under the ash.

I'm not sure what the 60 goes for price wise around here but the 105 was about 1500 less than what you were quoted for the 60 here in the states. Doing a self install will definitely save you a boatload, was that price with installation maybe? I know I spent at least 1000 on materials to get the boiler wired and plumbed up; if I had someone do it for me there would have been a lot more cost for labor.

Do a search there is a good amount of info on the PB-105 and other pellet boilers here. Hopefully we can be of some help to your decision.

Wow, busy place. The thread went to the bottom of the second page in 24 hours!

Soo....PD, I have a couple of questions about the 105. My first and foremost question is do you have any concerns about the flame travelling back to the storage bin? From what I saw in the lousy pictures, there is a direct feed from the auger. Which concerns me. What I can't tell is if there is some kind of rotary dispenser which cuts off the fire from the augur. From the installation diagrams, it appears so BUT I'm not sure. Is it possible for you to take pictures and post or e-mail them?

I'm using 3 million btu per week right now but that's keeping the temperature from 60 to 65. Since my fuel will be free, I intent to keep it between 70 and 72 which means that I will burn a lot more BTU. My guess would be about an average of (5M/btu week) 4 pounds per hour on a weekly average. If you have a better guess or experience, I would appreciate the input.

How much are you burning?

How long do you expect the boiler to last?

The quality of the pellets is a complete unknown. I'm recycling wood dust and it contains particle board dust along with solid oak/maple wood shavings/dust. Assuming some kind of relatively high ash content (within reason), what will that do for my cleaning and maintenance? How long can I leave it without cleaning? It's not like I care about any small loss in efficiency BUT not to the point where it's dangerous or doesn't well and the neighbors complain.

$6K doesn't sound like a bargain but it's better then $8K. Is that what they still want? I wonder what those prices will be like in a month or so.

PD, thank you for taking the time to respond previously and thank you in advance for any future responses.

Spartan · Jan 11, 2011

Franks said:
Can look into the Pinnacle PB150. Made in Canada. Should be a local dealer near you. If not, email me with your zip code and I'll find you one. Retails for about $7k. 130K btus, very simple, easy to work on etc.

Screw the Canoooks anyhow!

That thing is too big for my home. Currently I'm consuming 3 million BTU per week and if I raise the temperature I assume something like 5 million BTU per week. Even at that rate, it's no more then an average of of 30K BTU an hour. Mehh....I could always pipe some heat to my neighbors! LOL!

Mind you, the price looks MUCH better. Less then $5K.

having said all that, do you own one or have direct experience?

Spartan · Jan 11, 2011

ghangac said:
First thing you need to do is figure out how many BTU's you will be requiring.

The Harmen Hydro-Flex 60 Boiler produces between 0-60,000 BTU's, and has 3/4" inlet/outlet for piping.

The Harmen PB-105 Boiler produces between 0-113,900 BTU's, and has 1 1/4" inlet/outlet for piping.

I have the Harmen PB-105, and heat a old 1,400 sqft 2-story farm house, and make domestic hot water. Next year I will be insulating the 4 car garage, and also heating that with the PB-105.

For maintenance, I quickly remove any ash build-up on the top rim of the burn pot once a day, and pull the handle's on the boiler tube scrapers. Once a week I empty the ash pan, and once a month I perform a complete cleaning.

On paper, the Hydroflex60 is enough.

I wonder if these boiler have "sweet spots". I read someone's post where they complained that their H60 didn't appear to give off more heat even though they went from 4 pounds per hour to 7 pounds per hour. I know that on my large work boiler (2M/but), I have to play with the gas volume a bit to keep the the efficiency up (and the stack temperature down). But there isn't a big range and it's temperature output is strictly time based (on/off). On the other hand, the pellet boilers manufacturer claim that they burn "from 0 to 105K BTU" which sound s like malarkey. At one or two pounds, the boiler will condense and start rotting it out.

I tried asking two dealers these questions and it flew right by their heads.

Pellet_Dog · Jan 11, 2011

No I don't really have any concerns of the flame traveling into the hopper. As long as the seal on the lid is maintained and the hopper lid is latched there is no airflow through the hopper. There is a plate at the bottom of the hopper that moves back and forth as the auger motor turns but I think its main purpose is to limit the flow of pellets into the auger and also agitate this area to prevent pellets from bridging and clogging up.

I am using about 2 bags a day, a little more when it is really windy and cold out burning an average grade pellet (Lignetics). I'm sure the consumption would decrease if I switched to an ultra premium but I can't justify the extra 75$ to $100 per ton cost difference.

The boiler should last a long time with maintenance being the key, especially before long periods of inactivity. One more thing, search for the burn pot hump/crack failure on the PB105 on this forum. There is an issue some have been having with the burn pot bubbling and cracking and I don't think Harman fixed the problem yet so there is a risk going with this boiler that it might happen. It is covered for 6 years under warranty though. I am hoping Harman either fixes it by then or I can come up with my own solution if I get that problem.

Fsappo · Jan 11, 2011

Spartan said:
Franks said:

Can look into the Pinnacle PB150. Made in Canada. Should be a local dealer near you. If not, email me with your zip code and I'll find you one. Retails for about $7k. 130K btus, very simple, easy to work on etc.

Screw the Canoooks anyhow!

Click to expand...

That thing is too big for my home. Currently I'm consuming 3 million BTU per week and if I raise the temperature I assume something like 5 million BTU per week. Even at that rate, it's no more then an average of of 30K BTU an hour. Mehh....I could always pipe some heat to my neighbors! LOL!

Mind you, the price looks MUCH better. Less then $5K.

having said all that, do you own one or have direct experience?

Well, our company has sold and installed lots of them. It has two heat settings. 88K and 130K btus. It wouldnt be too big for you. Very simple to operate and work on.

Spartan · Jan 11, 2011

Pellet_Dog said:
No I don't really have any concerns of the flame traveling into the hopper. As long as the seal on the lid is maintained and the hopper lid is latched there is no airflow through the hopper. There is a plate at the bottom of the hopper that moves back and forth as the auger motor turns but I think its main purpose is to limit the flow of pellets into the auger and also agitate this area to prevent pellets from bridging and clogging up.

I am using about 2 bags a day, a little more when it is really windy and cold out burning an average grade pellet (Lignetics). I'm sure the consumption would decrease if I switched to an ultra premium but I can't justify the extra 75$ to $100 per ton cost difference.

The boiler should last a long time with maintenance being the key, especially before long periods of inactivity. One more thing, search for the burn pot hump/crack failure on the PB105 on this forum. There is an issue some have been having with the burn pot bubbling and cracking and I don't think Harman fixed the problem yet so there is a risk going with this boiler that it might happen. It is covered for 6 years under warranty though. I am hoping Harman either fixes it by then or I can come up with my own solution if I get that problem.

I read about that problem on the net. It's the kind of problem that would annoy me but ultimately I would simply solve it myself. I don't know the specific design but from what I read, a nice thick stainless steel plate and half an hour on the mill will do wonders....and end the problem..It appears to be a bit of a design flaw but nothing serious.

Does the hopper lid or handle have some kind of switch that ensures the lid is shut/locked before the boiler operates? Is there some kind of fire detection or heat detection near the feeding end of the hopper?

Spartan · Jan 11, 2011

Franks said:
Spartan said:

Franks said:

Can look into the Pinnacle PB150. Made in Canada. Should be a local dealer near you. If not, email me with your zip code and I'll find you one. Retails for about $7k. 130K btus, very simple, easy to work on etc.

Screw the Canoooks anyhow!

Click to expand...

That thing is too big for my home. Currently I'm consuming 3 million BTU per week and if I raise the temperature I assume something like 5 million BTU per week. Even at that rate, it's no more then an average of of 30K BTU an hour. Mehh....I could always pipe some heat to my neighbors! LOL!

Mind you, the price looks MUCH better. Less then $5K.

having said all that, do you own one or have direct experience?

Click to expand...

Well, our company has sold and installed lots of them. It has two heat settings. 88K and 130K btus. It wouldnt be too big for you. Very simple to operate and work on.

I don;t know your product and I wont argue it's merits. However, based on the fact that I have no heat reservoir and my average BTU use is somewhere in the 20K, I can't see how I can make it work without starting and stopping it constantly. I'm better served with a smaller unit or one that can burn at a slower pace without the usual shortcomings. Or I need to go further and install a heat reservoir. Not rocket science but is there a compelling reason or advantage?

morsnow · Jan 11, 2011

I am also looking at this hydroflex. I was thinking along the same lines. have a smaller boiler to keep a steady load, and a backup system if the demand is to high. In my experience heating with pellets seems to be more efficient by keeping it on a medium setting and not let it cycle up and down. I was hoping to hear from more people with a hydroflex. I vision this design needing a lot of cleaning. I dont mind doing a major cleaning every two weeks, but I woundnt want to do a cleaning everyday.
A efficient new oil boiler can be had for less than 2k, how long do you think before someone can make a pellet boiler even close? I have called a few places and have quotes as high as 15-20 for a pellet system. I used to think it was a few years out, but I dont know?

Hot_h20 · Jan 11, 2011

Check my past posts for info on the HF60- for the size of the foot print and the amount of pellets it uses, you'll most likely be happy with this model.

Your quote of $8000 is almost twice what I paid for mine @ $4500, btw. (This was when Harman was doing a 20% off deal, tho. Probably not the time of year they're apt to do this)

I clean once a week, takes about 1.5 hrs. The most time consuming part is pulling the heat exchanger baffles and cleaning them.

Spartan · Jan 12, 2011

Hot_h20 said:
Check my past posts for info on the HF60- for the size of the foot print and the amount of pellets it uses, you'll most likely be happy with this model.

Your quote of $8000 is almost twice what I paid for mine @ $4500, btw. (This was when Harman was doing a 20% off deal, tho. Probably not the time of year they're apt to do this)

I clean once a week, takes about 1.5 hrs. The most time consuming part is pulling the heat exchanger baffles and cleaning them.

I had a long discussion with a dealer. He hasn't sold any boilers but the upside is that he quoted me just a bit over $6k. Closer to what I want to justify and pay. The other thing he mentioned was that there was a vacuum sensor on other Herman units so as to make sure the lid is closed and prevent burn back to the storage bin. Can you (anybody?) confirm that it's also present in the Hydroflex60?

Now for the scary part.....it needs 1.5 HOURS to clean out every WEEK? Isn't that kind of high? What happens if you leave it for a month?

FordMastertech · Jan 12, 2011

Now for the scary partâ€¦..it needs 1.5 HOURS to clean out every WEEK? Isnâ€™t that kind of high? What happens if you leave it for a month?

Your going to have 4 times the mess. :bug:

Spartan · Jan 12, 2011

morsnow said:
I am also looking at this hydroflex. I was thinking along the same lines. have a smaller boiler to keep a steady load, and a backup system if the demand is to high. In my experience heating with pellets seems to be more efficient by keeping it on a medium setting and not let it cycle up and down. I was hoping to hear from more people with a hydroflex. I vision this design needing a lot of cleaning. I dont mind doing a major cleaning every two weeks, but I woundnt want to do a cleaning everyday.
A efficient new oil boiler can be had for less than 2k, how long do you think before someone can make a pellet boiler even close? I have called a few places and have quotes as high as 15-20 for a pellet system. I used to think it was a few years out, but I dont know?

From my experience.........there should be a "sweet spot" or at least a "sweet range" where the heat exchange rate is balanced above moisture condensation. Of course, if the boiler has sensors measuring multiple parameters and variable speed everything, that "sweet spot" may indeed be the entire range of the units output. Conversely, the dumber it is, the narrower the range. Then there is the issue of constant start and stopping. There has to be some effect from on/off stressing and losses as it heats up.

I don't know what the HF60 can do. I'm working with the assumption that it works best within the middle of the range and if it the temperature goes below it's range, I can always let the gas furnace do it's job. If I use 5M BTU in a week (29K/but an hour) then a unit that produces between 20K and 40K with a 3 degree range, it should cover the majority of my heating needs. I'm guessing here and anyone who has more knowledge or perhaps expertise about home heat loss and comfort ranges can chime in.

Spartan · Jan 12, 2011

FordMastertech said:
Now for the scary partâ€¦..it needs 1.5 HOURS to clean out every WEEK? Isnâ€™t that kind of high? What happens if you leave it for a month?

Click to expand...

Your going to have 4 times the mess. :bug:

Really? Or should I find one of those "beat him with a chair" smilies for the bad news?

Seriously, it takes that long to clean up? What the hell was the salesman talking about when he said that it needs about a hour a month? Not that I believe salesman......lawyers.....politicians......

imacman · Jan 12, 2011

Spartan said:
A few weeks ago, I started a thread about pellet mills. Since then, I tested them and I can produce pellets.........

OK....let me bring this thread back to your first post.....you have a pellet mill, and are making your own pellets?

Please post pics of the pellets, and the sawdust pile you have to work with.

maglite67 · Jan 12, 2011

about 5000 at earth sense energy systems in dale, wi

Spartan · Jan 12, 2011

imacman said:
Spartan said:

A few weeks ago, I started a thread about pellet mills. Since then, I tested them and I can produce pellets.........

Click to expand...

OK....let me bring this thread back to your first post.....you have a pellet mill, and are making your own pellets?

Not yet. As I said where you quoted me.......I tested them and I can produce pellets. The unit I tested was a simple diesel powered Chinese machine and it was cheap but SLOW. The unit I intend to buy is larger and electric. When I do, I'll be more then glad to share photos/videos and answer questions.

imacman said:
Please post pics of the pellets, and the sawdust pile you have to work with.

No problem. Do you want a picture of a dust collector and 40 yard container? Or the actual sawdust? Or the composition of the sawdust?

What do you need to see and how is it going to help?

Fsappo · Jan 12, 2011

No one threatens a messenger. This is madness!

Hoval · Feb 11, 2011

Has anyone else thought about a conversion pellet burrner unit?

Last Fall I converted my Hoval ZKT to a pellet burner using a PellX 20KW burner conversion. The original Hoval was a 30 year old multi fuel boiler made by Gustav Ospelt Hovalwerk AG In Liechtenstein. When I bought it I was told that I could heat with anything-Oil, Nat Gas, Liquid Propane, Wood, Electric or Coal. I don't think that Wood Pellets were even a gleam in the eye of the manufacture. It think has a 150 gal of heating hot water and 50 gal of domestic hot water, with 5 zones of baseboard heat. Over the years I have used fuel oil for the whole year going through 1200 to 1500 gals per year. I priced Fuel oil yesterday at $3.399 per gallon. Thatâ€™s $4,078 to $5,098 per year in todayâ€™s prices. Several of the years I used a mix of Coal in the late fall, after temperatures were below 35F, winter and early spring switching to Oil for the rest of the year as I used this for my hot water all year. I would usually go through 4 tons of coal (say $980) and 450 gal of oil (say $1,500). I started using pellets in September and I have used 6 Tons or $1,580 so far this year. On the very cold weeks I will go through 1 ton in 2 weeks.

The Hoval that I have was a perfect unit for conversion. What I have found out is that I need to clean the burner every 1000# of pellets burned and clean the boiler every ton of pellets burned. This requires that you can gain access to the fire box and heat exchanger. My Hoval has a swing open door that opens up the front of the unit for cleaning. I then use a small shovel to clean the ash off the bottom of the boiler and a brush and vacuum to clean the heat exchanger (after it has cooled off). I spend about 10 to 15 minutes to clean the burner and half an hour to clean the boiler.

The PellX unit comes complete with the control box that allows you to adjust several functions to get the proper burn. I can adjust the amount of pellets feed rate for start up, pellets feed rate to operate, fan speed and the temperature on the high limit as well as 4 start up temperature options based on the high temperature shut off. An auger is included that is about 1.7 meters feet long. The unit also includes a temperature sending unit that needs a well in the boiler for shut off temperature. I did need to buy a safety temperature shut off as a safety back up. (this has never been triggered) The burner has a high temperature shut off on the pellet inlet stack. (this has shut the unit down three times when I have not cleaned the burner often enough.) The PellX unit is self lighting, self shut off, self feeding and somewhat self cleaning of the burner.

My pellet usage bin holds 1 ton at a time. I built mine out of plywood on legs with tin for the bottom to help the pellets slide down to a 3â€ pvc toilet fitting that goes into a 3â€ pvc â€œYâ€. I used a 45 degree â€œYâ€ unit that drops the pellets into the straight part of the â€œYâ€. This allows me to remove and replace the auger if needed while the bin is loaded. (it comes out easy but need some fooling with to get back in)

My plans are to make my own pellets starting this spring. I have found a supply of product and plan to process and produce about 600# every hour. But that is another story. Let me know if you are interested. I have included photoâ€™s of the above. Let me know what you think.

Don2222 · Feb 11, 2011

Hello

I got a quote for the HF60 for $4700.00 but with all the extra's it may be a little more?

Skippydo · Feb 11, 2011

Just a not on cleaning out the space under the burn pot. I take a small hose, insert
it in a vac, plug it with a piece of rag to get the suction, and push the hose into the back very gently.
You will notice a great difference in the build up on the burn pot.
Somebody mentioned it, and I tried it....
Only clean once a week now, instead of twice a day.

Hoval · Feb 12, 2011

This is a good price for this unit and still one of the best prices for a pellet boiler. This is a great add on or primary boiler for hot water baseboard, or with a heat exchanger for a hot air system. You need to make sure what your final cost will be when up and working. Are you currently using Oil to heat your home and water? This will save you at least half of what you are spending now.

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