Newbie pipe stove installation and stove placement questions

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iceisasolid

New Member
Jan 3, 2011
110
North Central Idaho
Greetings,

I am new to this forum and have been gleaning information from this site. I recently decided that I should have wood heat in my home for my children and I.

I am planning on placing a 1991 Englander 24 AC in my home. I am in the process of refinishing it. I have ordered a new Cat and impingment place due the current plate being warped and the cat being old. New stove paint should be on it tomorrow.

The home was built by a farmer in the late 50's/early 60's. It is a 2 level 1800 sq ft home including finished walkout basement, which serves as the main entrance. The main living area is upstairs, 2 bedrooms, full bathroom, kitchen, dining area. The basement has a 3rd room, 2ndary living room, laundry, and a 3/4 bath. There is a large stairwell (about 4.5 ft wide) from the laundry room to the kitchen. THere is a cut out between 2nd story living room floor support beams and the downstairs living area covered with a grate (presumably for the old stove set up removed by a prior owner due to back drafting of smoke).

I am not certain as to where the pipe should run, however. I initially thought I would place it outside from the basement through the wall and up the side of the house, where an unlined masonary chimney used to be. I then considered running it in the house from the basement through she upstairs living space through the roof. My third consideration is placing it in the upstairs living area. My uncle suggested 2 stoves- the Enlander upstairs and the Fisher Baby Bear downstairs.

The 2nd level floor has 16" spaced beams as do the rafters. Unfortunately, they are offset by about 3 inches, so I can't just run the pipe straight up from the basement without putting angled pieces in. I will not be building a chase this winter if the install goes outside. I will not be placing a masonry chimney, either.

My questions are:
1. Do any of you have problems with pipe placement outide of the home? If so, what's the problem?
2. Are there any of you who have regretted placing the stove in the basement living area?
3. For a 2 level home, would it be better to run a 2 stove set up?
4. Would anyone be willing to post some pictures of their stove pipe set up which run outside.
5. For those with a rafters (or truss)/joice offset problem, would you be willing to post pictures of the ways you resolved the problem?

I am going to post pics of the home layout if this helps.

Input from folks with experience- good and bad is appreciated. I am currently heating with a diesel furnace and would like to use much less of it. I am looking to make a quality install that I can be proud of and will help my children be warmer (run the furnace at 68 F max) and its in the 20's outside.

Thank you, in advance. And thank you for all of the information I have been able to read about already.

Ray
 
possible install with pipe outside pics 1 and 2
 

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Hi Ray, and welcome!

First off, I must say that I love your sig, and would add "and it ends there too". Nice.

Okay, you have a lot of questions, and I'll just take a shot at some overall thoughts to help frame the conversation.

Firstly, an inside flue is preferred for performance reasons. You could go to a lot of work insulating and connecting an outside chase so that it effectively becomes part of the house's heated envelope, but that is a lot of work, and better left to crazy people like me.

Nextly, if you are going to try to use one stove (whatever you prefer) to heat your house, mounting it on the lower floor makes it much easier to get that hot air distributed.

So, from those two principles, I suggest going with your second, internal, lower floor proposal.

The joist-to-truss offset is a common problem, and if you do some searching you'll find some threads with step-by-step guidance on how to resolve it. (Warning--one contains my advice.) The short answer is it's better to cut ceiling joists than roof rafters, so it's best to start by marking the spot that fits between your roof rafters, and use a plumb bob to relay that point downward, and cut and box your ceiling and floor joists as needed to run your chimney straight.

Thoughts, questions, comments, concerns? :)

I hope this helps continue the conversation.

Again welcome, and good luck!
 
Thank you for your response. I appreciate it.

I am considering the framing of a floor joist, but not too turned off to the idea of some elbows in there. I am contemplating a self install with the aid of my handier uncle and brother.
The joist will need a header applied, so here are the next questions...

1. Other than the "wrong place to cut", are there limitations on where a cut should be for a joist? (i.e, too close to one side of the beam)
2. why is it better to cut a joist v rafter?
3. for an inside flue install, should I decide to build a chase for the upstairs, does it need to be insulated?
4. Are there people on the forum who have single wall to the ceiling of the lower level, dbl wall insulated through the lower level ceiling, single wall to the second level ceiling, then dbl wall insulated through the roof? Is this an eye sore?
5. As this will be a winter install, with snow on the roof, is there a product which will seal flashing and cure in the less than 30 degree temps? Do I need to run a space heater under the flashing to heat the roofing cement, otherwise?

I have not seen any basement installs and would like to see pictures of how people run their stove pipe, if possible

-Ray
 
iceisasolid said:
Thank you for your response. I appreciate it.

You're welcome. I find it entertaining and educational.

I am considering the framing of a floor joist, but not too turned off to the idea of some elbows in there.
That's your prerogative, but be aware that Class A elbows are expensive, and any elbow reduces your draft and makes your flue harder to clean. Personally, I'd prefer taking more time to frame in a straight pipe, than put in avoidable turns that will reduce performance. EDIT: I agree with BeGreen that elbows are a common and viable option. With your two story, internal chimney, draft should not be a problem. Your call.

I am contemplating a self install with the aid of my handier uncle and brother.
The joist will need a header applied, so here are the next questions...

"Fire" away!

1. Other than the "wrong place to cut", are there limitations on where a cut should be for a joist? (i.e, too close to one side of the beam)

There's no real limitation, as long as the adjacent joists are correctly sistered and the header is correct, but a span's stress is greatest in the middle, and less at the ends. It's best to cut as close to the ends as possible.

2. why is it better to cut a joist v rafter?

Again, either can be done correctly, but I prefer the joist because it has less loads in general, no snow and wind loads in particular, is obvious if it sags, and won't let in water if it does.

3. for an inside flue install, should I decide to build a chase for the upstairs, does it need to be insulated?

By code you have to have some sort of protection to keep anything--kids, pets, laundry, etc.--at least 2" away so that no one gets hurt and your house doesn't burn down. That said, insulation on an interior flue is mainly counterproductive, since it keeps your house from heating up your flue, and your flue from heating up your house. I'd be tempted to build a nice perforated-steel chase around, for protection and air circulation. Stone is nice too, since it's relatively conductive and holds heat. EDIT: But a chase framed with 2x4s, covered in sheetrock, nothing within 2" of the pipe would be a basic solution. If it were me I'd put in at least a couple of close-able vents, high and low, open-able for nice convection heating when the stove's running.

4. Are there people on the forum who have single wall to the ceiling of the lower level, dbl wall insulated through the lower level ceiling, single wall to the second level ceiling, then dbl wall insulated through the roof? Is this an eye sore?

I doubt it. I don't know if it would pass code, but it would require a bunch of odd transitions, and all that single wall would cool your flue gasses down and potentially cause draft and fire problems. I'd run double wall stove pipe to your first ceiling, then Class A from there. That's what modern stoves want.

5. As this will be a winter install, with snow on the roof, is there a product which will seal flashing and cure in the less than 30 degree temps? Do I need to run a space heater under the flashing to heat the roofing cement, otherwise?

I'm not sure, but I'm pretty sure I've seen cold-weather patching compounds, since roofs do need fixing in cold weather.

HTH
 
iceisasolid said:
Thank you for your response. I appreciate it.

I am considering the framing of a floor joist, but not too turned off to the idea of some elbows in there. I am contemplating a self install with the aid of my handier uncle and brother.
The joist will need a header applied, so here are the next questions...

1. Other than the "wrong place to cut", are there limitations on where a cut should be for a joist? (i.e, too close to one side of the beam)
2. why is it better to cut a joist v rafter?
3. for an inside flue install, should I decide to build a chase for the upstairs, does it need to be insulated?
4. Are there people on the forum who have single wall to the ceiling of the lower level, dbl wall insulated through the lower level ceiling, single wall to the second level ceiling, then dbl wall insulated through the roof? Is this an eye sore?
5. As this will be a winter install, with snow on the roof, is there a product which will seal flashing and cure in the less than 30 degree temps? Do I need to run a space heater under the flashing to heat the roofing cement, otherwise?

I have not seen any basement installs and would like to see pictures of how people run their stove pipe, if possible

-Ray

Not a carpenter, so I'll pass on the joist questions. Are you asking about an offset in the connector pipe or the class A insulated pipe? Class A can only have up to a 30 deg elbow. But if that works to make the installation easier, then it's a viable option and used frequently enough. Or if offsetting the connector off the stove, you can use 45's there. You could use 90's but often that can have a detrimental effect on draft.

The connector (single or double wall) can only go to the 1st ceiling. From that point on it must be Class A all the way to the flue cap. No other option here for good safety reasons.
 
Gentlemen,

Thank you for your input. This has been great. Unless there is a reason to change, I will be having the 2nd level ceiling joist cut (previously called a rafter-due to building vernacular undereducation) and header applied to it. The only joist which needs to be cut is in the upper ceiling- so it seems. I think that there is enough space in the rafters.

In the event that there is offset between the rafter ceiling joist in the attic requiring an elbow v a rafter modification, is it code compliant to place an elbow in the pipe in the attic?

I plan on having pictures of the process as we go- which hopefully will be in the next 2 weeks. I have some additional changes for the stove- new catalyst installation and impingment plate, new gasket.

I have test fired the stove and there was no smoke out of the flue collar, but there was smoke from the face plate and the spin drafts when I closed the catalytic bypass. ALso, the door is leaning a little. I am replacing the catalyst and gasket and the impingment plate- scheduled to arrive any day. I will be replacing the cast door gasket.

Other questions:

Assuming the flue collar hasn't ever been taken off, would you remove it and replace it ot just leave it (I am probably answering my own question in my head). Ok, I am planning on replacing the gasket. Same things apples to the face plate gasket (there is an optional glass kit for it). Is this over kill?

WHat is the best way to adjust a cast door with a mild gangster lean?

Thank you again, and I hope to be showing some progress soon.

Cheers,

Ray
 
iceisasolid said:
Gentlemen,

Thank you for your input. This has been great. Unless there is a reason to change, I will be having the 2nd level ceiling joist cut (previously called a rafter-due to building vernacular undereducation) and header applied to it. The only joist which needs to be cut is in the upper ceiling- so it seems. I think that there is enough space in the rafters.

In the event that there is offset between the rafter ceiling joist in the attic requiring an elbow v a rafter modification, is it code compliant to place an elbow in the pipe in the attic?

Yes, with the restrictions that a 30 degree elbow is the sharpest allowable, and there must be enough vertical run in your attic to create the desired offset. If you look the catalogs for the pipe you choose (many prefer Simpson DuraTech) on a place like NorthlineExpress, it will tell you what offsets various combinations of elbows and pipe lengths between them will provide. Go with the gentlest elbow (like 15 degrees) that will give you the needed offset in the space that you have.

If you are already cutting your 2nd floor ceiling josts, you may be able to position the cut in such a way that you have a straight run. Check twice, cut once. :)

I plan on having pictures of the process as we go- which hopefully will be in the next 2 weeks. I have some additional changes for the stove- new catalyst installation and impingment plate, new gasket.

Nice! That would be fun to see.

I'll leave your other questions to the stove pros.

HTH, and good luck!
 
iceisasolid said:
WHat is the best way to adjust a cast door with a mild gangster lean?

Sometimes a washer on the lower hinge can level out the door. But I think it may be time for a call to Englander tech support if Mike doesn't chime in here.
 
I cannot speak to all your questions . . . but I can address two of them.

Outside Class A Chimney: If I could have done so easily I probably would have gone straight up . . . many folks say an inside chimney is better for drafting, you retain a little more heat from the stack this way and it's better since the chimney stays warmer to reduce creosote deposits. However, after looking at my second floor and the second floor's ceiling and realizing that the homeowner who built this house originally really mucked things up by having the stringers from the floors not run the same way . . . and when I looked at having to move quite a bit of hot water basement heat I opted to go outside with my Class A pipe . . . with some trepidation.

I am happy to say however that I have not had any issues with my set up personally . . . perhaps it is luck or perhaps it is the fact that I have insulated Class A pipe running up two stories in height . . . in either case draft is rarely an issue unless I'm building a fire in early Fall or late Spring when the outside and inside temps are close to each other. Creosote has also been a non-issue thanks to burning well seasoned wood and burning at the proper temps. I may lose some residual heat by going outside with the Class A rather than running it inside, but to be frank my house is plenty warm and what little heat I lose is not missed -- besides most of the heat generated from burning wood with an EPA stove comes from the stove and not the pipe.

I have had a benefit with an out and up install . . . by putting in a T-connection at the base I can quickly and easily sweep my chimney from the ground without ever stepping on to the roof. In fact, sweeping my chimney is a 10-15 minute job.


Two Level Heating: I heat my 1,800 square foot Cape (two stories) with a single woodstove placed in the living room on the first floor. Heat upstairs is actually quite good -- not too hot and not too cold. Heat in the living room is typically quite warm . . . as you get further away on the first floor the heat levels slowly drop off. Coolest areas are in my master bedroom (where my wife and I like it to be a bit cool) and in our laundry room/bathroom/boiler room which is a small breezeway like addition connected to the garage.
 
firefighterjake said:
I have insulated Class A pipe running up two stories in height.

Hi Jake!

To scratch today's curiosity itch, by "insulated Class A", do you mean anything more than, say Simpson DuraTech? I'm all for insulation, and am wondering if you're using any handy add-ons.

Burn long, and prosper!
 
I only read the 1st post (in a hurry), so my post may not be applicable any more, but I'll post anyway.

I have a similar situation as you and was nervous that I'd have draft issues.
I'm on my 3rd year and am very happy and I don't intend to enclose my chimney.
If I let the fire go out (I rarely do) I might lose the draft but it's not difficult to get going (crack open a window and maybe a torch up the flue for a minute).
I have an open stairway that the heat didn't want to go up. I put a floor grate and a computer fan (blowing down) on the opposite side of
the room from the stove and stairwell. The heat flows up the stairs nicely now.

I took a bunch of pics of the install in case my insurance co. wanted to see them (they didn't).

Click for more pics

29.jpg
 
(Curious) George said:
firefighterjake said:
I have insulated Class A pipe running up two stories in height.

Hi Jake!

To scratch today's curiosity itch, by "insulated Class A", do you mean anything more than, say Simpson DuraTech? I'm all for insulation, and am wondering if you're using any handy add-ons.

Burn long, and prosper!

ICC Excel . . . pretty similar to the Simpson DuraTech.

Not sure what you mean by "add-ons" . . . it has a cap, but no fine mesh screen which is nice since it doesn't get clogged . . . the aforementioned T at the base for easy cleaning . . . and then just the usual side wall bracing.
 
firefighterjake said:
(Curious) George said:
firefighterjake said:
I have insulated Class A pipe running up two stories in height.

Hi Jake!

To scratch today's curiosity itch, by "insulated Class A", do you mean anything more than, say Simpson DuraTech? I'm all for insulation, and am wondering if you're using any handy add-ons.

Burn long, and prosper!

ICC Excel . . . pretty similar to the Simpson DuraTech.

Not sure what you mean by "add-ons" . . . it has a cap, but no fine mesh screen which is nice since it doesn't get clogged . . . the aforementioned T at the base for easy cleaning . . . and then just the usual side wall bracing.

Thanks Jake. By "add-ons" I meant insulation besides the pipe itself. Not to thread-jack, but that ICC Excel stuff meets a higher standard than US, right? My impression is that pipe is premium stuff. Do you know if it's much more expensive than the Simpson, and worth it? As a firefighter I particularly value your opinion.

Thanks for all your great posts.
 
I'm sure you have the internet chops to find that info out yourself, no?
 
Thanks for the info FFJ, BG, and BVT:

I am not really certain which chimney to get at this time. Our local DIY store offers Selkirk and the stove stores offer Simpon and ICC. I figure that I will be spending about $900-1200 for the pipe and chimney. Any ball park ideas on a 24 ft set up with Dbl Wall to the first ceiling then insulated class A to the roof? I think that I will need about 4 ft of Chimney above the roof. No elbows that I am aware of. It will be running from the top vent of the stove. Ceilings are 8 feet tall.

Thanks for the input, I appreciate it.

Ray
 
Mine was @ $1300. About 4' inside (dbl.) and @ 20' class A.
 
(Curious) George said:
firefighterjake said:
(Curious) George said:
firefighterjake said:
I have insulated Class A pipe running up two stories in height.

Hi Jake!

To scratch today's curiosity itch, by "insulated Class A", do you mean anything more than, say Simpson DuraTech? I'm all for insulation, and am wondering if you're using any handy add-ons.

Burn long, and prosper!

ICC Excel . . . pretty similar to the Simpson DuraTech.

Not sure what you mean by "add-ons" . . . it has a cap, but no fine mesh screen which is nice since it doesn't get clogged . . . the aforementioned T at the base for easy cleaning . . . and then just the usual side wall bracing.

Thanks Jake. By "add-ons" I meant insulation besides the pipe itself. Not to thread-jack, but that ICC Excel stuff meets a higher standard than US, right? My impression is that pipe is premium stuff. Do you know if it's much more expensive than the Simpson, and worth it? As a firefighter I particularly value your opinion.

Thanks for all your great posts.

If you're asking if I put it into an insulated chase . . . no . . . the ICC Excel is totally exposed to the elements. I don't know if it is truly better stuff than similar US pipe, but I do know that it has worked out very well for me . . . not sure about the price and comparison . . . my insurance company required a professional install so a sweep/firefighter at work did me a favor and put it in at a good price.

Oh yeah, don't value my opinion too much . . . I may be a firefighter, but I still put my pants on just like you do . . . I start by doing a one-handed hand stand and then . . . . ;)
 
In regards to performance and longevity v cost, is there any big difference for 4 ft of dbl wall insulated stove pipe and 18 ft of class A chimney iand a 3 foot section with 15 degrees of offset in the following manufacturers:

ICC
Selkirk
Simpson

These are available to me locally and it seems that the difference mainly comes down to cost. Am I wrong?

-Ray
 
Well the cost of the dbl wall adjustable pipe and the class a chimney is $1217 and about 300 for installation. I have decided to have it installed by a contractor as my insurance requires a letter from a licensed builder. Install cost is about $300. This brings the total cost of the install to:

1. 1991 EPA 2 certified Englander 24 AC- $275
2. new cat- $173
3. new impingment plate- $35
3. heat shield $96
4. Pipe and Chimney- $1217
4. labor- $300
5. 2 cans of black stove paint- $14
6. news gasket- $15
7. 4 cords of tamarack - $680
Total- $2805

The cost of filling my 275 gallon diesel #2 furnace tank two more times this winter... $1600 (and I just filled it a few weeks ago).

In terms of the install, even after building a header for the ceiling joist, I still need a 15 degree offset as the wall it is going on runs into the roof apex. This it not the most ideal, but the other option is to run out the wall and run it up the outside of the home. I really do not want it outside.

One of the things I should have considered and may do so at a later date this year is that Idaho apparently offers a 40% state tax credit on the cost of the stove/installation and they offer 20% tax credit for the next 3 years, too. That seems a little odd that the cost of the stove and pipe and install can be deducted from the state taxes over 4 years. I suppose I better speak with my accountant on that one.

Thank you for all of the input provided. I have appreciated it. I'm pondering chase building ideas in the upper family room that the class a chimney will runthrough. I like the idea of drywall with 2 registers -one up top and one down below. Thanks.

Regards,

Ray
 
Pictures are forthcoming, but the installation should be completed today. I have appreciated the input from everybody. I also appreciate the prior information found on the site by hours of reading. I even dreamed about seeing the cat ignite (silly but I have been thinking about this stove and install for weeks now), and I don't even have a glass front on my stove.

I have my inspection later today. The case and all things needed for the inspector are open. I decided to put the pipe running through the main living area in the closet. I had a 38 inch closet, I now have 21 inches of closet and a place to hang my broom in from of the chase. I needed 15 degree offsets. I could have had my installer place it through the apex of the roof by making a support and framing etc.., but I figured that the benefit of a straight pipe, was not worth the extra engineering to my home and cost of doing so- he agreed- just gave me the options.

If I were to di this again, I would have gone with a new stove- turns out the Home Depot has the Englander NC 30 for $999 (base model), and although list price, it is new, with a warranty, and would have qualified for the tax break. I'm checking into Idaho's tax credit for stoves/pipes/and installs. It may work out anyway...

I have procured 5 cords of 6 month seasoned red fir, in addition to the already 6 month seasoned bull pine I have in the equipment shed. Next years wood will be better. I also found a local man willing to let me have all the dead trees that I can haul off his 200+ acre ranch- mostly red fir, some tamarack, larch, white pine. I think my kids and I are going to be mending fence for show appreciation...

Happy heating.

-Ray
 
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