Will the Castine roast us alive?!!

Woody Stover · Dec 25, 2010

First off, let me say that I'm blown away blown away by the wealth of knowledge provided here by all of the "seasoned" posters and mods. I've just discovered the board, and I'm looking forward to wasting thousands of hours here. :lol:

I only found out about the tax credit a couple of weeks ago. I'm sure I could find the answers to my questions here eventually, but as every stove website is telling me, "Your time is running out!" :bug:

I'm presently running a Dutchwest small cat 24/7, which is doing OK but struggles a bit when it's below 20* out. I'm sure I can up its performance with a cat cleaning, gaskets, cement and better draft. We're heating a cabin, 720 sq. ft. main room and a 250 sq. ft. bedroom. It's doable now, but I've heard that we're heading into a new ice age. :long:

Be that as it may, I've succeeded in convincing my lovely wife that a man really should have a back-up stove and that a man would be a fool to pass up this tax credit. I'd like to get a clean-burning non-cat, and I'm considering the F 400 Castine. Looking at the exploded views, it appears to be better-constructed than the F3 CB, but I fear that it may be too much stove for 1000 sq. ft. I don't like to see smoke coming out of the stack, and I'm wondering how hot I'll have to run the Castine to fire the secondaries and get a clean burn. I've seen several posters say that it likes to run about 500*. Obviously, during the day I can run smaller loads to hold indoor temps in the low 70s. But when banking for an overnight burn, can I slow it down and still get clean combustion? If the consensus is that this isn't possible, maybe someone can suggest a pretty, high-quality, cast, clean-burning NC stove, rear-vent under a 28-1/2" lintel....and an ash pan would be nice, too. Don't really like all the high maintenance, breakable-looking stuff on the Leyden and Oakleaf.... Or am I just being way too picky? :smirk:

BTW, I think I could get short legs for the Castine to get me under the lintel, but have come across conflicting info and don't see them listed on the parts sites I've looked at...

Renovation · Dec 25, 2010

Buster Leitov said:
First off, let me say that I'm blown away blown away by the wealth of knowledge provided here by all of the "seasoned" posters and mods.

Me too!

Welcome Buster!

I've heard that we're heading into a new ice age. :long:

Yes, we're only 20,000 years away from the next in our current 100,000 year cycle. Start seasoning now!

Be that as it may, I've succeeded in convincing my lovely wife that a man really should have a back-up stove and that a man would be a fool to pass up this tax credit.

That is impressive.

someone can suggest a pretty, high-quality, cast, clean-burning NC stove? Or am I just being way too picky? :smirk:

IMO, no, and yes.

(Warning, I've already been wrong twice today. :shut: )

Since you want long, low burns, I'll suggest you reconsider your decision against cats. As you know, there's tons of information to be mined in the threads and stove reviews. Make sure you search for Everburn, if you consider the Leyden, et. al. The stove reviews, articles and conversations here completely changed my beliefs about stoves, and teach me something every day.

Good luck, and Merry Christmas!

firefighterjake · Dec 25, 2010

I love my Jotul Oslo -- the older brother to the Castine, but I question if the Castine would not be an overkill for such a small place.

While I am a big fan of Jotuls . . . have you considered the Woodstock line up . . . the addition of the cat allows low and slow clean burns . . . and users say the heat is a more moderate heat.

Backwoods Savage · Dec 25, 2010

Buster Leitov said:
First off, let me say that I'm blown away blown away by the wealth of knowledge provided here by all of the "seasoned" posters and mods. I've just discovered the board, and I'm looking forward to wasting thousands of hours here. :lol:

I only found out about the tax credit a couple of weeks ago. I'm sure I could find the answers to my questions here eventually, but as every stove website is telling me, "Your time is running out!" :bug:

I'm presently running a Dutchwest small cat 24/7, which is doing OK but struggles a bit when it's below 20* out. I'm sure I can up its performance with a cat cleaning, gaskets, cement and better draft. We're heating a cabin, 720 sq. ft. main room and a 250 sq. ft. bedroom. It's doable now, but I've heard that we're heading into a new ice age. :long:

Be that as it may, I've succeeded in convincing my lovely wife that a man really should have a back-up stove and that a man would be a fool to pass up this tax credit. I'd like to get a clean-burning non-cat, and I'm considering the F 400 Castine. Looking at the exploded views, it appears to be better-constructed than the F3 CB, but I fear that it may be too much stove for 1000 sq. ft. I don't like to see smoke coming out of the stack, and I'm wondering how hot I'll have to run the Castine to fire the secondaries and get a clean burn. I've seen several posters say that it likes to run about 500*. Obviously, during the day I can run smaller loads to hold indoor temps in the low 70s. But when banking for an overnight burn, can I slow it down and still get clean combustion? If the consensus is that this isn't possible, maybe someone can suggest a pretty, high-quality, cast, clean-burning NC stove, rear-vent under a 28-1/2" lintel....and an ash pan would be nice, too. Don't really like all the high maintenance, breakable-looking stuff on the Leyden and Oakleaf.... Or am I just being way too picky? :smirk:

BTW, I think I could get short legs for the Castine to get me under the lintel, but have come across conflicting info and don't see them listed on the parts sites I've looked at...

Welcome to the forum Buster.

That comment in bold above makes me wonder how long it has been since cleaning your cat. Cats (and other animals) like to be clean. The same thing for that cat in your stove. Perhaps all that stove needs is a good cleaning. Gaskets also are cheap and very easy to replace. Even if you had to buy a new cat it would certainly be cheaper than a new stove.

Looking at your sq. footage to heat, it might be very difficult to keep that heat level down to your comfort level with a new stove. Then if you get a new stove that is very small to heat a small area, you will certainly be looking at something that will not heat overnight because the firebox will be too small.

Make sure you research well before making that decision and good luck to you.

Hardrockmaple · Dec 25, 2010

I just, this fall, took the top off my 1996 CDW small w/cat (2460) stove. I fixed a few spots where the original cement had fallen out, replaced the damper gasket, the refractory and put in a new cat. I then put new gaskets around all 3 doors and the glass. VC has the complete gasket package available and I got it from the local dealer. Did the whole job for around $250.00 and got a new stove out of it.

I had been considering purchasing a new stove prior to this basic rebuild, no longer in the market. :coolsmile:

rgds.

summit · Dec 25, 2010

go bigger if you wanna roast

begreen · Dec 25, 2010

Welcome Buster. The Castine will not heat you out of the cabin. It burns well with a half load of wood. There is a caveat though. This stove likes a good draft which may be hard to achieve with a one story exterior stack. It will burn much better with a straight up, interior flue of at least 16ft. In this class of stoves also look at the Hearthstone Shelburne and perhaps the Hampton H300.

A good strategy for your situation is to add mass to an easy drafting stove so that it can retain and release heat after the fire has died down. For this purpose a soapstone stove like the Hearthstone Homestead or Heritage may work for you. If you are open to a nice cat stove that will burn well and a low fire, consider a smaller Woodstock stove.

My recommendation would be to consider a hybrid. If you like the look of cast iron, but want more mass, stout steel design and easy startup, consider a hybrid like the Pacific Energy Alderlea T5, Quadrafire Cumberland Gap or the Napoleon 1100C. The Alderleas and Napoleons are very popular and are good heaters.

Any of these stoves "could" run you out of the house if you fill it full of wood on a 40F day and run it hot. But they really don't need to be run this way. All will run fine with a half load of wood, run at a moderate pace.

JBinKC · Dec 25, 2010

I would not rule out the stove. It depends upon the amount of heat loss your cabin has from lack of insulation, extra or poor windows, ac units left in all year etc.. I heat with a Castine with about 1000 sq ft at a similar latitude to you and it actually struggles to keep up when it is cold for an extended period of time (sub 15 degrees for 24 hours).

RIDGERUNNER30 · Dec 26, 2010

I can see your point in wanting to get a bigger stove for longer burn times and when the temps dip down having enough stove to get the job done. the only problem you will have is when the temps are not in single digits running a bigger stove is going to be challage, with not blasting you out, If a cat stove is not on your list what about a pacific energy alderlea t-5, they are steel stove with a cast iron jacket around the firebox, members on the board seem to really like these stoves for not blasting you out of the room they are in welcome to the forum and good luck with your choice

Woody Stover · Dec 28, 2010

RenovationGeorge said:
Since you want long, low burns, I'll suggest you reconsider your decision against cats.

BeGreen said:
A good strategy for your situation is to add mass to an easy drafting stove so that it can retain and release heat after the fire has died down. For this purpose a soapstone stove like the Hearthstone Homestead or Heritage may work for you. If you are open to a nice cat stove that will burn well and a low fire, consider a smaller Woodstock stove.

I'm now leaning in this direction. It seems to me that there's only the cat to worry about, as opposed to the variety of parts involved in a secondary air burn system. I'm looking at the Keystone. I like the idea of the even soapstone heat in this uninsulated cabin (except for blown-in in the attic.) But it seems that with every stove I look at, I find something I wish were different. The Keystone wants a 7" flue (I wonder why...I may ask them.) The Dutchwest that I'm running now is drafting well through 6" SS liner all the way to the top of the masonry fireplace chimney (18', top vent.) It's 2' sections of snap-together pipe, two adjustable elbows, no insulation. I was going to replace that liner anyway, even if I wasn't getting another stove, with either rigid 4' SS pipe or a flex liner, and insulate.
So if I got the Keystone, installed 7" liner, then had to press the 6" Dutchwest back into service, I'd have to hook it up with a reducer. The cross-sectional volume would increase by 36%, so would I lose 36% of my present draft? Partly compensating for that would be a new less leaky liner with insulation. I think you're going to tell me that I'll be OK....but what if down the road, I'd like get a different 6" stove that happens to be picky about draft? In marginal draft conditions, like warmer low-pressure days, I might miss that extra draw. Hate to give up draft but I guess I may just have to compromise. At least their website tells me I'll get an 8 hr. burn out of that tiny firebox....that's reassuring. :smirk:
C'mon, reassure me that everything will work out fine.

BeGreen, I'm a little unsure what you mean by an "easy-drafting stove" and how it would affect performance.

Thanks, everyone, for the warm welcome and your input!

gpcollen1 · Dec 28, 2010

Buster Leitov said:
RenovationGeorge said:

Since you want long, low burns, I'll suggest you reconsider your decision against cats.

Click to expand...

BeGreen said:

A good strategy for your situation is to add mass to an easy drafting stove so that it can retain and release heat after the fire has died down. For this purpose a soapstone stove like the Hearthstone Homestead or Heritage may work for you. If you are open to a nice cat stove that will burn well and a low fire, consider a smaller Woodstock stove.

Click to expand...

I'm now leaning in this direction. It seems to me that there's only the cat to worry about, as opposed to the variety of parts involved in a secondary air burn system. I'm looking at the Keystone. I like the idea of the even soapstone heat in this uninsulated cabin (except for blown-in in the attic.) But it seems that with every stove I look at, I find something I wish were different. The Keystone wants a 7" flue (I wonder why...I may ask them.) The Dutchwest that I'm running now is drafting well through 6" SS liner all the way to the top of the masonry fireplace chimney (18', top vent.) It's 2' sections of snap-together pipe, two adjustable elbows, no insulation. I was going to replace that liner anyway, even if I wasn't getting another stove, with either rigid 4' SS pipe or a flex liner, and insulate.
So if I got the Keystone, installed 7" liner, then had to press the 6" Dutchwest back into service, I'd have to hook it up with a reducer. The cross-sectional volume would increase by 36%, so would I lose 36% of my present draft? Partly compensating for that would be a new less leaky liner with insulation. I think you're going to tell me that I'll be OK....but what if down the road, I'd like get a different 6" stove that happens to be picky about draft? In marginal draft conditions, like warmer low-pressure days, I might miss that extra draw. Hate to give up draft but I guess I may just have to compromise. At least their website tells me I'll get an 8 hr. burn out of that tiny firebox....that's reassuring. :smirk:
C'mon, reassure me that everything will work out fine.

BeGreen, I'm a little unsure what you mean by an "easy-drafting stove" and how it would affect performance.

Thanks, everyone, for the warm welcome and your input!

Purchase whatever stove you like but don't shy away from secondary combustion b/c of the 'variety of parts'. I replaced my burn tubes on my olympic for the first time this year - 10 yrs. My castine is in mint condition, I assume because of good burning practices and PM. They may look complicated but are not even close to it...

River19 · Dec 28, 2010

For what it is worth, we run the F3CB in our log home with 1140 sq ft and cathedral ceiling..........this stove is more than adequate to heat us up to over 70 degrees while maintaining surface temps of 400-450 so we aren't cranking it up too hot. We arrive at 11pm Friday to the cabin and it is at 51 degrees (propane HWBB) by 12:30 when we go to bed we are at 58-60 degrees by getting the stove to the 500-600 degree range; when I get up at 6am I get the stove roaring again from the coals and have the place to 65-70 by 9-10am..........from there we maintain 68-75 easily in the main living area by keeping the stove purring at 400-450..........

So from my experience, the F3 is a well made, efficient little stove capable of heating 1200sq ft in northern New England; I would assume you could also run the Castine at a reasonable level and be plenty comfortable, but it could be overkill as well.

ddddddden · Dec 28, 2010

Yeah, the 7" flue on the Keystone doesn't make much sense when the larger Fireview uses 6". However, Woodstock does approve the Keystone for 6" use and sells the reducer for it. . .probably with most of the Keystones sold.

ddddddden · Dec 28, 2010

If you're worried about the tiny firebox, maybe try the Fireview/Classic, which is 20-30% larger, depending on whether you use factory specs or real world measurements (Fireview loses a good bit of space to the andirons.) Todd has both, and he indicated that he thougt the Keystone would hold about as much wood in real-world loading, but that was before burning in the Keystone. . .maybe ask him for an update. p.s. Everything will work out fine. . .especially if you go with Woodstock, as they will make it so.

Woody Stover · Dec 30, 2010

CTwoodburner said:
Purchase whatever stove you like but don't shy away from secondary combustion b/c of the 'variety of parts'. I replaced my burn tubes on my olympic for the first time this year - 10 yrs. My castine is in mint condition, I assume because of good burning practices and PM. They may look complicated but are not even close to it...

That's not bad at all. How old is the Castine?
The info I've gotten (limited, I admit) seems to indicate that the cats are able to run less BTUs on the low end, which may help me in this small house. We're on a roller coaster in southern IN. A couple of weeks ago, it was 10* at night. Last night, it was above 30. It's nice to be able to load up an overnight burn, and throttle 'er way down, yet still be able to ramp it up for more heat on those cold, clear nights. The air reburn systems intrigue me, though. And I've never seen one live, only on videos. I'm sure they don't do it justice.

River19 said:
So from my experience, the F3 is a well made, efficient little stove capable of heating 1200sq ft in northern New England; I would assume you could also run the Castine at a reasonable level and be plenty comfortable, but it could be overkill as well.

I've been trying to use the EPA data as a guideline (not sure of the wisdom of doing that.) Surely they've reversed the "Heat Output BTU/HR" data for the Castine and what they call the "F3CBII."

http://www.epa.gov/compliance/resources/publications/monitoring/caa/woodstoves/certifiedwood.pdf

The Jotul website has probably the least amount of useful info on it of any stove site I've looked at.
It would have been nice to have found out about the tax credit and discovered The Hearth Room a little earlier than I did. Hard to gather all the info I want in a couple of weeks. Oh well, won't be the first time I've dove in without knowing what was under the surface. It's kind of thrilling.

Den said:
Yeah, the 7" flue on the Keystone doesn't make much sense when the larger Fireview uses 6". However, Woodstock does approve the Keystone for 6" use and sells the reducer for it. . .probably with most of the Keystones sold.

Yep, found this on the Woodstock site:
"Woodstock Soapstoneâ€™s Fireview and Classic
Models have a six-inch flue collar and six-inch stovepipe
and chimney pipe is recommended. The Keystone and
Palladian models have a seven-inch flue collar but can be
used with either six or seven inch pipe (six inch pipe
requires a reducer).

Den said:
If you're worried about the tiny firebox, maybe try the Fireview/Classic, which is 20-30% larger, depending on whether you use factory specs or real world measurements (Fireview loses a good bit of space to the andirons.) Todd has both, and he indicated that he thougt the Keystone would hold about as much wood in real-world loading, but that was before burning in the Keystone. . .maybe ask him for an update.

OK, that helps. My SIL has a Fireview and I've loaded that box. Hard to tell from the pics and 360* view, but it almost looks like the Keystone andirons might be closer to the glass.
I was looking at the exploded view of the Keystone. With all of the slabs of stone, there are certainly a lot of seams to be sealed. I saw that one or two of the Fireview reviews noted that the stove was hard to slow down. I had to put a flue damper in my SIL's stove to get a more moderate burn. Now, I don't know if that hot burn was due to seams leaking, or super draft from the 22 or more feet of interior stack. She's got 720 sq. ft. house with vaulted ceiling that goes up to a 360 sq ft. loft and even with the flue damper, it's still above 80* every time I go over there.

Todd · Dec 30, 2010

If your looking at the differences in the Woodstocks I can tell you there is only about an inch difference LxWxD wise in the fire boxes And only 35lbs difference in stove weight. It doesn't sound like much but the Fireview will hold 1-2 more splits depending on the split size and burns longer because of it. Both stoves with 4 good sized splits will burn similar with the same heat output and last all night for a good 8-10 hours at a low burn setting. I can get consistant 12+ hour burns with the Fireview which is nice for a 2 load per day schedule in the shoulder seasons but when it gets colder I go with 3 loads per day and use the Keystone to help out as needed. So far with the Keystone I can get consistant 8-10 hour burns and also had a couple 11-12 hour burns.

Cat maintenance is much easier with the Fireview, just lift the lid and it's right there. The Keystone has a plate with 4 screws and a heat shield to remove if you need to pull the cat but if it just needs a brushing or vacuuming you can do it from inside the fire box by removing 1 screw and slipping out the guard screen.

The Keystone has an advantage of a great ash pan design where as the Fireview can be messy at times shoveling them out if your not careful.

I think either stove would work fine for your cabin. Pick the one you like the looks of best, both are fine quality stoves and their customer service is great.

Oh, and the andiron distance from the glass is the same in both stoves, about 1 inch.

Stegman · Jan 14, 2011

Since you've gotten a bunch of good info from the others, I'll chime in on the short legs: Yes, they are available for the Castine. We have them on ours, which feeds into an old early 20th century fireplace with a killer mantel. They even come in colors!

Woody Stover · Jan 14, 2011

Stegman said:
an old early 20th century fireplace with a killer mantel.

It sounds lovely...pics?

BTW, I ended up getting a Keystone. If it's not quite enough output, I know I can tighten this place a bit more.
I've decided to drop in a new liner (insulated, which my present pipe is not,) see how my present stove works with the new pipe in a rear-vented configuration sitting further out on the hearth, then finally fire up the Keystone. I've got to put in a chimney at my BIL's first though, and the weather hasn't been cooperating as of late...it's been nasty cold.

Todd · Jan 14, 2011

Good choice Woody. Let us know how it goes and send us some pictures.

Stegman · Jan 14, 2011

Woody Stover said:
Stegman said:

an old early 20th century fireplace with a killer mantel.

Click to expand...

It sounds lovely...pics?

My pleasure. Taken just a few moments ago:

Woody Stover · Jan 14, 2011

That is old-school, right there. The square lines are just beautiful.
And that's my preferred size for a coffee mug, as well. :cheese:

DawgDoc · Jan 14, 2011

Nice setup, Stegman!

begreen · Jan 14, 2011

Atsa very nice! Beautiful installation. I like the discrete heat shielding (and the arm in the mirror

)

leeave96 · Jan 14, 2011

Woody Stover said:
Stegman said:

an old early 20th century fireplace with a killer mantel.

Click to expand...

It sounds lovely...pics?

BTW, I ended up getting a Keystone. If it's not quite enough output, I know I can tighten this place a bit more.
I've decided to drop in a new liner (insulated, which my present pipe is not,) see how my present stove works with the new pipe in a rear-vented configuration sitting further out on the hearth, then finally fire up the Keystone. I've got to put in a chimney at my BIL's first though, and the weather hasn't been cooperating as of late...it's been nasty cold.

I don't know how I missed this thread, but I've got a Keystone and it is a fine stove. Mine is hooked-up to a 6 inch SS insulated liner and it very much controllable at low or high temps. Ash pan is nice too.

Good luck,
Bill

Stegman · Jan 14, 2011

BeGreen said:
Atsa very nice! Beautiful installation. I like the discrete heat shielding (and the arm in the mirror )

Yeah, I didn't want my hideous looks to ruin the aesthetics - hence me stepping off to the side.

Thanks for the kind words. We just moved into this house last June and love it. The previous owner had a Jotul F3 CB installed there [but without a pipe into the chimney and without a hearth pad. Best part: He's a fireman in town] but they took it with them. We had an F3 at our previous home, but thought we needed something a little bigger for this house.

The Castine is great. We wanted something that wouldn't stick too far out into the room, so it's perfect for us. Our dealer [The Stove Place in Shrewsbury, MA] did a great job with the install. It's the second time we've bought from them and can't say enough good things about them.

Will the Castine roast us alive?!!

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