How important is oxygen barrier pipe?

Digger873 · Jan 16, 2011

With all the water treatments I am reading about is it really necessary. I am having a really hard time wraping my mind around the the fact that a material I can put heated water through under up to a 100 or so pds of pressure will let in enough oxygen to make a difference. For that matter a product that you can fill up with air under pressure and it will hold it, will allow oxygen to move through it? Isnt pure oxygen a gas? If I filled pex pipe with pressurized oxygen from my torch bottles is it going to leak out? Or is this just a marketing gimmick?
Any thoughts?

free75degrees · Jan 16, 2011

It isn't that much more expensive, and the cost of o2 barrier pex is probably small compared to the rest of an install. Before I knew anything about the topic I had hired a company to install my an entire heating system - oil boiler, indirect water heater, and baseboard. The idiots used non barrier pex. The water heater rusted out after 2 years of use. Maybe the non barrier pex was the cause, maybe not. I wasn't taking a chance so when I installed my Tarm I replaced almost all of the pex in the system with some nice pex-al-pex (some of the old stuff was too hard to get to). It is too much of a risk to put thousands of dollars invested in boiler(s) at risk.

jdboy9 · Jan 16, 2011

I installed a clear/white pex with oxygen barrier. After one day of use the inside of the pipe started turning a grayish black color. I thought it was the flux from the copper and maybe it still could be not 100% sure. I did notice that on certain places on the pex where the oxygen barrier was scratched or compromised there are little dark spots or black. Is this the oxygen getting into the pipe causing this black stuff or what I don't know. I do know there was something in my initial water fill that caused the pipes to blacken and since have more or less stopped getting darker, my 2nd year running.

in hot water · Jan 16, 2011

Digger873 said:
With all the water treatments I am reading about is it really necessary. I am having a really hard time wraping my mind around the the fact that a material I can put heated water through under up to a 100 or so pds of pressure will let in enough oxygen to make a difference. For that matter a product that you can fill up with air under pressure and it will hold it, will allow oxygen to move through it? Isnt pure oxygen a gas? If I filled pex pipe with pressurized oxygen from my torch bottles is it going to leak out? Or is this just a marketing gimmick?

There is no question that O2 will get through the non barrier tube and cause damage. It is not a marketing myth. We have years of ctual data and failed systems to prove it.

Of course it depends on how much tube you are talking about and the temperature of the fluid. The hotter the fluid the more it allows the O2 ingress. We have first hand experience with steel expansion tanks rusting away and pin-holing within a year or two on non barrier tube systems.

Have you noticed tire dealers pushing nitrogen instead of compressed air? Same reason nitrogen replaces skinny O2 molecule with fat nitrogen molecule It also helps with moisture which goes into your tire with of compressed air.

Hydronic and DHW expansion tanks are filled with nitrogen at the factory as they also have rubber or EPDM membranes and eventually lose their pre-charge pressure to the water if filled with compressed air.

Heatway tried for years to deny this was possible and now, under the Watts brand has added o2 barrier to their rubber and pex heating tube. There are thousands of radiant systems that sludged up due to non barrier tube allowing the components to corrode and rust away.

But you can address it with chemicals that include O2 scavenger, they will need to be maintained and boosted from time to time. Just as you would, or should with open system steel tank OWF and other open type boilers.

Or you could use all non-ferrous components with non-barrier tube. A stainless steel or bronze pump, and a DHW expansion tank, which are lined inside. Of course all the fittings, valves, etc need to be non-ferrous. When you add the cost of all non ferrous, or ongoing chemical treatment the small cost difference for barrier pex really pencils out.

Any thoughts?

Digger873 · Jan 17, 2011

There is no question that O2 will get through the non barrier tube and cause damage. It is not a marketing myth. We have years of actual data and failed systems to prove it.

Ok so maybe there is some truth to some O2 will get through but is it really necessary, with the additives that are available.
Some one said it isnt that much more but around here it is more than double and is special order only in 100' and 500' rolls. This is from a supplier I already do a lot of business with.
I guess my thought process on it is, the quality of water and erosion would be far more important.

Have you noticed tire dealers pushing nitrogen instead of compressed air? Same reason nitrogen replaces skinny O2 molecule with fat nitrogen molecule smile It also helps with moisture which goes into your tire with of compressed air.

yeah I,ve noticed and I personally think that after making it 30 some years with just compressed air and very few problems its a waste of money. But I'm cheap. %-P There is a place to spend money and a place to save money in every project. I want it done right, dont get me wrong, I just dont want to spend money if I dont have to, I have enough have to's already.
I have to wonder if with all the open systems out there that work (maybe a little more maintenance but they work) if it will really extend the life of my system that much.

thx.

DaveBP · Jan 17, 2011

Digger, if your local supplier is charging more than double for barrier tubing maybe you should politely ask why others only seem to need 15% to 25% premium for it?

free75degrees · Jan 17, 2011

ordering online might be an option too. i got mine from pexsupply and was pretty happy with them.

bigburner · Jan 17, 2011

We buy wholesale and still buy the O2 stuff on line. Free shipping and no sales tax. FedEx guy may not like it, filled his whole truck once.

in hot water · Jan 17, 2011

Digger873 said:
There is no question that O2 will get through the non barrier tube and cause damage. It is not a marketing myth. We have years of actual data and failed systems to prove it.

Click to expand...

Ok so maybe there is some truth to some O2 will get through but is it really necessary, with the additives that are available.
Some one said it isnt that much more but around here it is more than double and is special order only in 100' and 500' rolls. This is from a supplier I already do a lot of business with.
I guess my thought process on it is, the quality of water and erosion would be far more important.

Have you noticed tire dealers pushing nitrogen instead of compressed air? Same reason nitrogen replaces skinny O2 molecule with fat nitrogen molecule smile It also helps with moisture which goes into your tire with of compressed air.

Click to expand...

yeah I,ve noticed and I personally think that after making it 30 some years with just compressed air and very few problems its a waste of money. But I'm cheap. %-P There is a place to spend money and a place to save money in every project. I want it done right, dont get me wrong, I just dont want to spend money if I dont have to, I have enough have to's already.
I have to wonder if with all the open systems out there that work (maybe a little more maintenance but they work) if it will really extend the life of my system that much.

thx.

Price a good hydronic condition and you will see how the barrier makes $$ sense. If your system is a long term investment a few bucks on the front end is cheap insurance, tube is not something you want to replace and upgrade later on.

Murphy2000 · Jan 18, 2011

Digger873 said:
With all the water treatments I am reading about is it really necessary. I am having a really hard time wraping my mind around the the fact that a material I can put heated water through under up to a 100 or so pds of pressure will let in enough oxygen to make a difference. For that matter a product that you can fill up with air under pressure and it will hold it, will allow oxygen to move through it? Isnt pure oxygen a gas? If I filled pex pipe with pressurized oxygen from my torch bottles is it going to leak out? Or is this just a marketing gimmick?
Any thoughts?

It is not a gimmick. Oxygen molecules can travel right through polyethylene. The oxygen gets into the water, the water makes the steel rust.

What is little known is that the oxygen barriers are not a stop-all device. Some oxygen will still get in and the higher the temperature of your water, the more oxygen will sneak in (even with the O2 barrier).

I think most O2 barriers break down and are mostly useless at around 180 degrees or something if I recall correctly.

I run automotive "pet safe" polypropylene glycol in my system. That makes me feel safer than just treated water.

in hot water · Jan 18, 2011

Murphy2000 said:
Digger873 said:

With all the water treatments I am reading about is it really necessary. I am having a really hard time wraping my mind around the the fact that a material I can put heated water through under up to a 100 or so pds of pressure will let in enough oxygen to make a difference. For that matter a product that you can fill up with air under pressure and it will hold it, will allow oxygen to move through it? Isnt pure oxygen a gas? If I filled pex pipe with pressurized oxygen from my torch bottles is it going to leak out? Or is this just a marketing gimmick?
Any thoughts?

Click to expand...

It is not a gimmick. Oxygen molecules can travel right through polyethylene. The oxygen gets into the water, the water makes the steel rust.

What is little known is that the oxygen barriers are not a stop-all device. Some oxygen will still get in and the higher the temperature of your water, the more oxygen will sneak in (even with the O2 barrier).

I think most O2 barriers break down and are mostly useless at around 180 degrees or something if I recall correctly.

I run automotive "pet safe" polypropylene glycol in my system. That makes me feel safer than just treated water.

If you want 100% O2 protection consider a PAP tube or the Viega FostaPex. The aluminum is a very effective barrier.

One concern with the EVOH barrier added to the outside of the tube, on barrier pex, is scratching some off during installation. I think most of the manufacturers have added an additional PE protective layer over the O2 barrier now. Extended time in direct sunlight can also compromise the O2 barrier

I still prefer the PAP, or some of the new multi layer pex tube for less expansion issues> It keeps it's shape when formed and provided the O2 barrier function.

hr

sdrobertson · Jan 18, 2011

I've been watching this thread with interest as I have old non-O2 barrier pex installed when I had my OWB. Last year I purchased enough chemicals to treat my water to get me through this year until I get my lines replaced. Is there a test available for home use that would test the amount of O2 in my storage, and if it is available, what is the "allowable" amount? 95% of my pex is buried 4ft in the ground and I'm just curious as to the amount of O2 getting in. I need to replace the lines this summer as I do loose some BTU's to the ground but with like the rest of my system, I just want to really know where I stand.

barnartist · Jan 18, 2011

FYI I just bought my last roll of ox barrier from PexUniverse, but through amazon.com. $85 a roll of 300' free shipping. My other rolls were from pex supply I think.
I have to tell you I wish I had used the rolls from pexUniverse for the whole install as it was so much more flexible and even seemed slicker to get through my floor joist holes. It was a joy to work with. Maybe I just got a fresh roll out of the factory, but again a huge difference.

Como · Jan 18, 2011

http://propertyservices.eonenergy.com/power-flush-video

Am amusing little video covering power flushing. From the UK where most systems are open. This one looked like a combi so could have been closed.

sdrobertson · Jan 18, 2011

Como said:
http://propertyservices.eonenergy.com/power-flush-video

Am amusing little video covering power flushing. From the UK where most systems are open. This one looked like a combi so could have been closed.

Wow, did you see that brown crud that he dumped down the drain? I was a little afraid to open a "power flushing" video at work, but I just had to :red:

Digger873 · Jan 18, 2011

Ok I will concede O2 gets through the pipe.
I just have to wonder if it is enough to make a difference.
First of all, I am not talking about 3/4" or 1" pipe. I am talking about 1 1/4" or 1 1/2" pipe, of which I have not even been able to find 1 1/2" pipe online.
I need aprox 300 ft of pipe (150' run). If I have to buy a 500' roll I am wasting money on 200' of pipe I dont need. I can buy standard Pex in a 300' roll.
Only 10% or less will even be exposed to air as the rest will be under ground.
I think even with the O2 barrier pipe your going to have rust with steel so wouldnt an inhibitor be just as effective.
I can think of a dozen or so cars that I have personally seen, have manged to make it 20 plus years without the steel rusting through, operating at 180 degrees or higher.
Again wouldnt the quality of water be far more important in preventing sludge and scaling.

woodsmaster · Jan 18, 2011

Digger873 said:
Ok I will concede O2 gets through the pipe.
I just have to wonder if it is enough to make a difference.
First of all, I am not talking about 3/4" or 1" pipe. I am talking about 1 1/4" or 1 1/2" pipe, of which I have not even been able to find 1 1/2" pipe online.
I need aprox 300 ft of pipe (150' run). If I have to buy a 500' roll I am wasting money on 200' of pipe I dont need. I can buy standard Pex in a 300' roll.
Only 10% or less will even be exposed to air as the rest will be under ground.
I think even with the O2 barrier pipe your going to have rust with steel so wouldnt an inhibitor be just as effective.
I can think of a dozen or so cars that I have personally seen, have manged to make it 20 plus years without the steel rusting through, operating at 180 degrees or higher.
Again wouldnt the quality of water be far more important in preventing sludge and scaling.

some thoughts

1 - There is air in the ground.

2 - Steel wont rust without air.

3 - I don't think they would make it if it wasn't beneficial

4 - cars don't stay wet all the time.

5 - the bigger the pipe the more area for air to get in

Huskurdu · Jan 18, 2011

Digger873 said:
Ok I will concede O2 gets through the pipe.
I just have to wonder if it is enough to make a difference.
First of all, I am not talking about 3/4" or 1" pipe. I am talking about 1 1/4" or 1 1/2" pipe, of which I have not even been able to find 1 1/2" pipe online.
I need aprox 300 ft of pipe (150' run). If I have to buy a 500' roll I am wasting money on 200' of pipe I dont need. I can buy standard Pex in a 300' roll.
Only 10% or less will even be exposed to air as the rest will be under ground.
I think even with the O2 barrier pipe your going to have rust with steel so wouldnt an inhibitor be just as effective.
I can think of a dozen or so cars that I have personally seen, have manged to make it 20 plus years without the steel rusting through, operating at 180 degrees or higher.
Again wouldnt the quality of water be far more important in preventing sludge and scaling.

http://www.pexsupply.com/Wirsbo-Uponor-A1251250-1-1-4-hePEX-plus-300-ft-coil-8029000-p

http://www.pexsupply.com/Wirsbo-Uponor-A1251500-1-1-2-hePEX-plus-300-ft-coil-8473000-p

heaterman · Jan 18, 2011

Digger873 said:
With all the water treatments I am reading about is it really necessary. I am having a really hard time wraping my mind around the the fact that a material I can put heated water through under up to a 100 or so pds of pressure will let in enough oxygen to make a difference. For that matter a product that you can fill up with air under pressure and it will hold it, will allow oxygen to move through it? Isnt pure oxygen a gas? If I filled pex pipe with pressurized oxygen from my torch bottles is it going to leak out? Or is this just a marketing gimmick?
Any thoughts?

Facts you can take to the bank......
1. Oxygen molecules are smaller than the molecules that make up PE and PEX tubing and can slip through it easily.
2. In any hydronic system it is desirable or even mandatory to remove oxygen from the system to prevent corrosion and the buildup of sludge/crap/goo in the system.
3. One way to handle this is with inhibitors that "displace" the oxygen that as a matter of physics, enters the system continuously.
4. Another and better way to address the problem is to prevent the oxygen from getting in there in the first place through the use of barrier tube in your case.
5. If you filled a piece of non barrier pex with O2 it would indeed leak out. Right through the walls of the pex itself.
6. Oxygen is, as its name implies, an oxidizer. We all know what happens to a ferrous material when it "oxidizes".
7. Difference in pressure has no effect. Nature hates a vacuum and when you remove the oxygen from a sealed system it tries to refill the void so to speak. It's a chemical type
"tansmigratory" thing rather than a pressure related occurrence. Osmosis would be a good analogy.

Digger873 · Jan 19, 2011

woodsmaster

some thoughts

1 - There is air in the ground.

2 - Steel wont rust without air.

3 - I donâ€™t think they would make it if it wasnâ€™t beneficial

4 - cars donâ€™t stay wet all the time.

5 - the bigger the pipe the more area for air to get in

At the risk of sounding argumentative here are some more thoughts.
yes there is air in the ground but I have dug up many a waterline made out of steel that has been there for 20,30, even 50 years and is still carrying water to its destination. I will also have at least 3" of closed cell foam around the pex inside of plastic pipe, so any O2 that gets through all of that will have earned a right to be there.

I dont think it isnt beneficial, I just dont think its benefits are worth the price. They make premium gas cause its better for your your engine, but how many of us are buying it.

Any car/truck has a hydronic cooling system that stays wet all the time and according to what Im being told is getting O2 in the system through the rubber hoses and anytime the cap opens and draws from the reservoir.

Or the bigger the pipe the more inhibitor it carries. :coolsmile:

Huskurdu

Thanks for the links, I hadnt found this site yet. The price is even higher than my supplier though at $2.81 per ft, it is pushing 3 times the price I can buy regular 1 1/4" for. Thats around a $500.00 dollar difference. I,m thinking I can buy a lot of inhibitor for $500.00 dollars

You all have convinced me that maybe O2 gets in through the pipe and maybe O2 barrier pipe would "help" prevent rust/corrosion, but I am still not convinced that is something you just cant do without. I wonder if any of the guys with open systems and long term experience with them are convinced they need closed systems with O2 barrier pipe. How about it? Anybody with an open system want to weigh in here?

I really have very little that will be steel or cast iron, a few pumps, the HX in my GW 200 and maybe 6' of pipe outside the boiler. Everything else will be pex or copper. Oh yeah and an expansion tank
Surely an inhibitor will control it enough to get 10 years out of it.
Part of my problem here is I am really having a hard time keeping this project where it will actually save me money. I am all electric but my worst bill in 18 years has been $350.00, so if I can save $200.00 (probably unrealistic savings) a month for 5 months a year, its going to really take a long time to actually pay for this system in savings. So while its fun and all I still need to make the math work, and every $500.00 makes it that much harder to achieve that goal.

I do appreciate all the input/information. I'm learning a lot on this forum.

btuser · Jan 19, 2011

Underground lines? I may waste $100 to feel better but not any more than that. 99% of your ingress is going to be the sections above ground. Even these could be wrapped in insulation (foil backed) and could considerably lower the amount of O2 available, pretty much down to nothing.

Como · Jan 19, 2011

My Fathers open radiator system has very harsh water, I am sure inhibitor was put in when it was last re done 30 something years ago.

Anyway it is all gunged up now so we are having it done, new pump at the same time and TRV's. Might as well put in the TRV's when it is all drained down.

heaterman · Jan 19, 2011

Only 10% or less will even be exposed to air as the rest will be under ground.

Ever wonder what worms breath?

Frozen Canuck · Jan 19, 2011

heaterman said:
Only 10% or less will even be exposed to air as the rest will be under ground.

Ever wonder what worms breath?

ROFLOL......Good example......I hope he gets it now.....This is why all of us "poor ignorant slobs" in the trades have flat foreheads.....from banging our heads into a brick wall all day.....Sometimes for days on end.....Thanks "Heaterman" you just made my day.

heaterman · Jan 20, 2011

Seriously Digger........

Part of my problem here is I am really having a hard time keeping this project where it will actually save me money. I am all electric but my worst bill in 18 years has been $350.00, so if I can save $200.00 (probably unrealistic savings) a month for 5 months a year, its going to really take a long time to actually pay for this system in savings. So while its fun and all I still need to make the math work, and every $500.00 makes it that much harder to achieve that goal

If your electric bill/heating costs are that low you shouldn't even be thinking about a wood boiler system. Sure, correctly installed they are the absolute berries as far as comfort and long term use are concerned but you really might be better off with a wood stove or a pellet burner to just take the edge off during the coldest part of the year. If you're only spending $350 a month a boiler system that costs only $5K installed will have a payback waaaaaayy doen the road when you factor everything into the equation. You might better take that same amount and upgrade your insulation as much as possible. Save the work of burning wood ya know?

How important is oxygen barrier pipe?

New Member

New Member

Member

New Member

New Member

Minister of Fire

New Member

Feeling the Heat

New Member

Member

New Member

Minister of Fire

Minister of Fire

Minister of Fire

Minister of Fire

New Member

Minister of Fire

Member

Minister of Fire

New Member

Minister of Fire

Minister of Fire

Minister of Fire

Minister of Fire

Minister of Fire

Similar threads