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thesmackdown

thesmackdown

Member
Jan 18, 2011
29
Western Wisco
I posted this in the hearth room yesterday and after some discussion about heat delivery, ended up here.

Last summer we bought a old (1896/1921) farm house. It has an existing Monarch Add-A-Furnace. For those of you that are unfamiliar it is a wood burner that ties into a forced air furnace and uses the ducts to distribute heat through the house. Well, this one isn’t connected to any duct work as the house has a boiler and radiators. There is just a large grate in the floor above it in one of the rooms. The Monarch has seen better days and is starting to really show it’s age, from a wear and efficiency standpoint.

So, I need some help selecting a replacement.

The house - like I said, east part of the house was built in 1896 - west part 1921. The main part of the house is about 1900 sq feet and two stories with a basement. The stove is in the basement of the west side addition. The west side doesn’t have radiators. I guess they just relied on the kitchen stove?

Since this is an old house the plan is not very open and there isn’t much insulation in the house, yet.

Heating would primarily be for the first floor as we like the bedrooms cooler.

I think the stove would need to stay in the basement (unfinished) because of wood storage and flue connection.

I want something that I can use as a primary heating source.

Do I need something with a fan? Or would radiant action be just as effective?

As a side note, I am planning on installing a thermal solar collector for domestic hot water later in the Spring. If that can generate enough heat I was planning on tying it to the boiler system - so I might be interested in a water jacket stove so I can distribute heat to the east side of the house.
Click to expand...

So I am now thinking maybe a indoor boiler and I can add some radiators to the rooms without any. Or, a hybrid, if that exists, of forced air and boiler?

Where do I begin?
 
Evan Sayre said:
this one isn’t connected to any duct work as the house has a boiler and radiators.


Heating would primarily be for the first floor as we like the bedrooms cooler.

I think the stove would need to stay in the basement (unfinished) because of wood storage and flue connection.

I want something that I can use as a primary heating source.

As a side note, I am planning on installing a thermal solar collector for domestic hot water later in the Spring.
So I am now thinking maybe a indoor boiler and I can add some radiators to the rooms without any. Or, a hybrid, if that exists, of forced air and boiler?

Where do I begin?
Click to expand...

Begin, as they say, at the beginning.

You already have hot water heat don't go backward to warm air. I'm no expert on Solar, but I believe you will want storage for that. Those here that have storage with their wood-fired hydronics seem to like the convienence storage gives them.

Generally I'd think you'd want to figure out the zones, including the new one(s) for the bedrooms. Then do a heat loss calc.

Search the forumns here, as you will probably find the pros/cons of every boiler known to man.


BTW, Welcome aboard!
 
ISeeDeadBTUs said:
You already have hot water heat don't go backward to warm air. I'm no expert on Solar, but I believe you will want storage for that. Those here that have storage with their wood-fired hydronics seem to like the convienence storage gives them.

Generally I'd think you'd want to figure out the zones, including the new one(s) for the bedrooms. Then do a heat loss calc.

Search the forumns here, as you will probably find the pros/cons of every boiler known to man.


BTW, Welcome aboard!
Click to expand...

I have an unused cistern that I was planning on using for heat storage.
 
Put the word 'storage' in the title.

A cistern sounds too big for solar, but I don't know much about anything we talk about here.
 
That's about 3000 gallons - that's big! May be very hard to insulate, but you could use it as a box to hold insulation and a liner. I am planning on adding solar to my storage in the future. Good dual use application. Wood boiler with your current fossil as backup should work. Look and the stickry's on this forum.
 
Evan Sayre said:
I posted this in the hearth room yesterday and after some discussion about heat delivery, ended up here.

Last summer we bought a old (1896/1921) farm house. It has an existing Monarch Add-A-Furnace. For those of you that are unfamiliar it is a wood burner that ties into a forced air furnace and uses the ducts to distribute heat through the house. Well, this one isn’t connected to any duct work as the house has a boiler and radiators. There is just a large grate in the floor above it in one of the rooms. The Monarch has seen better days and is starting to really show it’s age, from a wear and efficiency standpoint.

So, I need some help selecting a replacement.

The house - like I said, east part of the house was built in 1896 - west part 1921. The main part of the house is about 1900 sq feet and two stories with a basement. The stove is in the basement of the west side addition. The west side doesn’t have radiators. I guess they just relied on the kitchen stove?

Since this is an old house the plan is not very open and there isn’t much insulation in the house, yet.

Heating would primarily be for the first floor as we like the bedrooms cooler.

I think the stove would need to stay in the basement (unfinished) because of wood storage and flue connection.

I want something that I can use as a primary heating source.

Do I need something with a fan? Or would radiant action be just as effective?

As a side note, I am planning on installing a thermal solar collector for domestic hot water later in the Spring. If that can generate enough heat I was planning on tying it to the boiler system - so I might be interested in a water jacket stove so I can distribute heat to the east side of the house.
Click to expand...

So I am now thinking maybe a indoor boiler and I can add some radiators to the rooms without any. Or, a hybrid, if that exists, of forced air and boiler?

Where do I begin?
Click to expand...
Think gasification boiler & see if Lambda control is right for you. Radiant is wonderfull & radiators I can sure recommend, thats all I use is cast iron rads. As was mentioned, do a heat loss & don't undersize the boiler on an older house like that. Randy
 
Just a few thoughts:

Try to get through the winter with what you have...if thats possible.

Start by upgrading the home.....insulation/vapor barrier for a start, a home of that age likely is inadequate/nonexistent in both areas.

If you were considering new doors windows....do those or at least factor them into your equations for heatloss.

Once you have completed your thermal upgrades you will have a much lower heatloss & a much better idea of what your design day system needs to be in terms of output.

When this is done or at least accounted for you will be able to choose a boiler for example that is sized correctly for the home.

If you decide to use the cistern as storage insulate it well, suggest an high density foam R 40 min value on bottom, sides & you will need to build an insulated cover as well.

Then you are ready to pick a liner for the tank. Pretty sure "Tom in Maine" a member here can help with that. (Hope I got that right).

From there you will have plumbing/piping, distribution system issues, (as well a host of others) plenty of members here that will help with that. (Great bunch BTW)

The reason that I am not suggesting "any" system at this time is that...well most of the heat created would in short order migrate to the outside of your home, based on your description of the home.

Best to spend those hard earned dollars tightening up & insulating the home first IMO.
 
You are truly at an advantage if the house is all ready fitted with cast iron radiators.After you tighten up the house as Frozen Canuck has suggested you can run much lower temps through your radiators that will provide you with both comfort and savings regardless of fuel type you use.By using outdoor reset the water temperature in my radiators run from 90 - 135* F this allows me to get more use out of my storage compared to lets say fin tube at 160 - 180* F.For example this morning it was 9* F outside and my system is running 128* F water.
 
Frozen Canuck said:
Just a few thoughts:
Try to get through the winter with what you have...if thats possible.
Start by upgrading the home.....insulation/vapor barrier for a start, a home of that age likely is inadequate/nonexistent in both areas. ........
Click to expand...
That's normally the best strategy - first insulate as much as possible, new windows, the works. At the same time you can research boilers and upgrades to your system. If you prefer to wait until warmer weather to start the renovations, you could use a band-aid approach by putting something like packing tape over anything that's letting air in, such as window sashes and casings, baseboard gaps, outlets, etc. You can usually find the leaks just by feel on a windy day, or slowly walk around the house with a candle. If you're concerned about the tape ruining a finish, blue painters tape will avoid those problems. Just a few bucks and a small amount of time can make a large short-term difference with infiltration, and save you $$ on fuel immediately. Then later on you can do the job the right way. Good luck with it!
 
willworkforwood said:
That's normally the best strategy - first insulate as much as possible, new windows, the works. At the same time you can research boilers and upgrades to your system. If you prefer to wait until warmer weather to start the renovations, you could use a band-aid approach by putting something like packing tape over anything that's letting air in, such as window sashes and casings, baseboard gaps, outlets, etc. You can usually find the leaks just by feel on a windy day, or slowly walk around the house with a candle. If you're concerned about the tape ruining a finish, blue painters tape will avoid those problems. Just a few bucks and a small amount of time can make a large short-term difference with infiltration, and save you $$ on fuel immediately. Then later on you can do the job the right way. Good luck with it!
Click to expand...

I was def. planning on getting through winter. The insulation is a tricky one. Since this is an old house and almost no updates have taken place since the 50s, the attic is filled with knob and tube. I am planning on rewiring the whole house in spring and then having insulation blown in at that point. I'm still not sure what I want to do about the exterior walls, insulation wise. If it were up to me I would gut and then use damp blown cellulose, but I have been overruled - in favor of keeping the plaster and lathe. So, it's a job that will have to happen from the outside. Windows are going to be a big project - there was an excellent article in Fine Homebuilding about energy saving vs cost in replacing old windows. https://docs.google.com/viewer?url=http://www.finehomebuilding.com/PDF/Free/021210040.pdf

Also, the insulation is going to happen over time - attic this years walls staggered over the next few. So, that mean, I guess, I will need to size the boiler for now and then just have excess heat available later. Any downsize to that other than upfront cost?
 
So.....I finally did the heat loss calculator.

I came up with 163,000 BTUs of loss per hour. Seems kind of high. This is a 2500 sq foot house with almost no insulation, so does that seem reasonable?

Now the questions are - how should I size a boiler considering that I plan to use storage and I have a stove in part of the house and plan to use solar too?

What else should I be thinking about, other than how to insulate more?

Thanks for the help so far this is very educational.

Evan
 
How many BTU/hr is the wood stove and what square footage of the house is heated by this stove.
This number you can take off your overall BTU number.
The solar hot water system will probably only help you out to cover your DHW needs.
Depending on where you live you may have some BTUs available for space heating produced by the solar hot water system, but it's not gone be significant.
BUT, as other members already suggested, I would first spend some money on a professional heat loss evaluation of your house.
 
[quote author="Evan Sayre" date="1296507921"]So.....I finally did the heat loss calculator.

I came up with 163,000 BTUs of loss per hour. Seems kind of high. This is a 2500 sq foot house with almost no insulation, so does that seem reasonable?

Totally reasonable given the description of your home. I see far too many members posting about their old drafty residence costing them nothing but money/time. FWIW or FYI I have just under 2500 sq ft total living space & am north of you; my heatloss is 46,778 btu/hr & thats at my design temp of -40. Plenty of glass in the house all triple pane, all ext doors have a storm door as well. -42 here this a.m. & I am comfy & cozy no frost on any window glass, I am careful when I touch the storm door glass with this temp. Given your description of the home if my temps head your way...well I think you freeze solid. Maybe you might want to rethink the insulation portion of your upgrades, make a good to excellent job of that a much higher priority. If you run those decreased numbers in usage vs the cost of the upgrade you will have a rough payback period. After that time it is all gravy.

Now the questions are - how should I size a boiler considering that I plan to use storage and I have a stove in part of the house and plan to use solar too?

If you are going to proceed with the boiler prior to insulation you will need to size for your current design day heatloss, or approx 200,000 btu/hr or above if you enjoy sleeping as opposed to loading a boiler when it gets cold. Storage in this case should be mandatory as you are going to need a place for all those btu's once you insulate & lower your heatloss. Cant see solar being cost effective given that heatloss, maybe for summer DHW only. Stove depends on design install, as to whether it loses as much heat up the chimney when not in use, as you gain when its burning. In a turn of the century house that is in the condition you describe; that is a big????

What else should I be thinking about, other than how to insulate more?

Insulation, Outside air barrier, Inside vapor barrier good to excellent job of all 3, then move onto other longer term paybacks, windows doors etc.

Thanks for the help so far this is very educational.

Yes helpful bunch here for sure, keep asking as I am sure many members have already traveled the road you are on. Hope this helps.
 
We got down to -30 last week. And pipes froze! House didn't get above about 63 either.

The problem is I almost have to do the heating system, as the current system is on it's last legs. I am not sure I can afford to do the heating system and the insulation in the same year

Anyone have a suggestion on how to find a energy auditor?
 
Evan Sayre said:
So.....I finally did the heat loss calculator.

I came up with 163,000 BTUs of loss per hour. Seems kind of high. This is a 2500 sq foot house with almost no insulation, so does that seem reasonable?

Now the questions are - how should I size a boiler considering that I plan to use storage and I have a stove in part of the house and plan to use solar too?

What else should I be thinking about, other than how to insulate more?

Thanks for the help so far this is very educational.

Evan
Click to expand...

I also have an old property, but brick and no way to add insulation to the walls.

1. Your heat loss looks about right to me. In the right order of magnitude.
2. Do the numbers but I could not make any sense of solar for heating and we have 300 plus days of sunshine. I was measuring collectors by the acre and storage in tens of thousands of gallons.
3. Solar for hot water is another issue.
4. Windows we have had restored, we are putting on double glazed storms. But the walls are the killer. We now have 3ft of insulation in the loft. Blow baby blow.
5. It has been said before but you have to go a very long way in insulation etc with an old house before it does not become cost effective. It might be possible to halve that load which will save a bundle on a heating system.

So what sort of walls do you have?
 
Como said:
Evan Sayre said:
So.....I finally did the heat loss calculator.

I came up with 163,000 BTUs of loss per hour. Seems kind of high. This is a 2500 sq foot house with almost no insulation, so does that seem reasonable?

Now the questions are - how should I size a boiler considering that I plan to use storage and I have a stove in part of the house and plan to use solar too?

What else should I be thinking about, other than how to insulate more?

Thanks for the help so far this is very educational.

Evan
Click to expand...

I also have an old property, but brick and no way to add insulation to the walls.

1. Your heat loss looks about right to me. In the right order of magnitude.
2. Do the numbers but I could not make any sense of solar for heating and we have 300 plus days of sunshine. I was measuring collectors by the acre and storage in tens of thousands of gallons.
3. Solar for hot water is another issue.
4. Windows we have had restored, we are putting on double glazed storms. But the walls are the killer. We now have 3ft of insulation in the loft. Blow baby blow.
5. It has been said before but you have to go a very long way in insulation etc with an old house before it does not become cost effective. It might be possible to halve that load which will save a bundle on a heating system.

So what sort of walls do you have?
Click to expand...

Ours are easy - wood frame.
 
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