considering EKO

I too have a "high mass" house only much smaller. Thick floors, porcelain tile, Brazilian cherry floors, granite counter-tops and sheetrock on the outside walls that is isolated from the studs by polyiso. sheets. I can go several hours without heat also. I had no storage the first year with my EKO and it was not a pretty sight. Too much idling time stuck up the whole boiler. The build-up on the walls of the firebox walls never burned off, the bypass damper got all gummed up and continually stuck closed, there was liquid creosote dripping almost continuously from the stack that I caught in a drip pan placed below. My boiler is in my basement and if you are familiar with that brew you can get an idea of what the house smelled like. Now this all occurred burning at least two year old, well seasoned wood. I now have a 500 gallon unpressurized storage tank and have one fire a day. Yes, I need to start a fire every day but that's easy with good dry wood and a propane torch.

My Tarm can be run with or without storage. My plan was to install the first year and then add storage 2nd year. My first year was similar to Fred61's.
There is a noticeable decrease in wood usage with storage too.
When you pipe first year just leave taps to add storage in future.

I own a EKO 60 and I would never buy one again! Way to many other units out there that run WAAAAAYYYYYYY better than a eko! They are way too picky on how they run and all the adjustments are fixed so they dont adjust on the fly.


ERRR I mean a EKO is great I have one for sale would you like to buy it LOL.


Just my $.02

Rob

Edit..... I should say that my EKO 60 works great and it heats my house and 40x64 barn well. I just think that they are outdated compared to some of the new models out there.

Several people have posted with a similar thought train to what you stated ( put the heat into the house). You really can't overheat your slab, or house and use it as your thermal storage, and be comfortable, so IMHO you shouldn't consider that.
As to lighting a fire in the EKO... I have mine set up in an outbuilding pumping to the house where the storage is. I have an aquastat on the primary loop set at 180 which turns on the pump that sends water to the house. I had a fire last night that most likely was out by 11pm. I went out this morning at 8 , raked around the firebox, and threw in 2 sheets of newspaper, some kindling, then loaded the firebox to the top, raked out the bottom, by which time the kindling was burning just from the few embers left in the ash. By the time I was done- less than 10 minutes in the boiler room, I turned the fan on, and pulled the damper forward. I get smoke for a few minutes , but good gassification in this manner in a short while. I find that if the boiler is warm, it works better. This morning the boiler temp was 155 from last nights burn. On occasion when I go out even though i've done nothing different, the fan will still be on, and the boiler temp down around 100, I'm not sure why this occurs, but when it does, I need to spend a little more time with it.
My point is that lighting a fire is not a big deal , I rarely use the torch in mine.
As to the better units out there... I would like lambda sensors etc. but at twice the price of what I paid for my EKO, I just read a lot here, and learned how to run this unit as best as I can, maybe next time... My last foray into wood burning was 15 years ago with a cast iron wet based coal/ wood boiler - no gasssification, just a lot of tending. We've come a long way, still more to go.

barkeatr said:

IM a former OWB user, I want to switch to gassification system. .....
DO you think I could get away without water storage? ......
thanks!

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I believe that the only way to run a gasser well without storage is 1) to have the right set of lifestyle circumstances, and 2) be fully willing to maintain the required loading schedule. Like Fred, our boiler in the basement, and there were also creosote issues the first year. Last year I began to understand much better how to load according to current and upcoming conditions. At this point we have it down pat. Often this means 2 or 3 small splits per hour during the waking hours (5% of capacity); at other times it means shutting down for multiple hours. It's partial loads only - the boiler never gets completely filled (but Sunday night with -15 maybe so ;-)). The other part of this is having someone around during the day (and willing) to do this kind of feeding. Operating the boiler this way has resulted in minimal wood usage and no creosote nightmares. Now, most folks either can't do this, or wouldn't want to (especially those having outside boilers). Personally, I don't mind at all, but also fully understand the other viewpoint. So, how close you come to the above will determine how well you can "get away" without storage. There are also a few individuals on the forum who report running full loads without storage, having a matching heat load - but that doesn't sound like your situation. But, yes you could load to the top every time, and then deal with the creosote that drips off the door, locks up the damper, and coats the heat tubes - that's another way to run without storage. So, if you don't like the sound of any of this, I would highly recommend getting storage up front!

I love my EKO. I'd buy it again in a heartbeat.

A well tuned system should consume nearly the same amount of wood when used with storage vs no storage. Storage is more about schedule than efficiency with gassers.

There are a lot of brands out there. Do your research. Either way going from an OWB to an inside gasser is going to be a huge step up, regardless of the name on the front of the unit.

When a boiler (which is designed to operate as a gasifier using a fan induced draft) is allowed to operate in idle mode (with the draft fan off), it really becomes nothing more than an OWB because gasification cannot occur without the fan (the fan is required in order to mix the smoke/gases from the upper primary chamber with the oxygen coming in from the secondary draft opening and colliding with each other to create 2,000 F temperatures in the lower, secondary chamber).

Thus, because a house cannot use all of the BTU's generated by this highly efficient, high temperature combustion and because most gasification boilers are designed with very small water jacket capacities in the boiler themseleves (which cannot possibly come close to absorbing all of the BTU's generated when gasifying), there are basically two possible ways to operate a gasifier effectively/efficiently:

1.) Continually (and often) fill the upper, primary chamber with small amounts of wood in an effort to closely match the BTU demand from the house. Obviously this would require more than a few trips to the boiler in a 24 hour period and most of us would not do this for very long before become very tired and frustrated. If too much wood is placed in the primary chamber (in an attempt to reduce the amount of daily trips made to the boiler for wood filling), the boiler will hit the high limit and go into idle mode. Too much of this idle-run, idle-run type of operation will cause large amounts of creosote to form and cause sticking problems with opening the primary door, opening the chimney/flue by pass lever etc, bridging of the fire wood etc.

2.) When used with adequate storage, start a fire and fill the primary chamber full of wood when the temperature in the storage tank gets to a minimum, pre-determined temperature (on my effect lambda 35 boiler with 1,000 gallons of storage I try to let the top of the top tank not get below 145 F when it is in the teens or below outside -by doing so I am able to keep my 3,000 sq. ft. house at a very comfortable 70-72F ). On real cold days this means that I would burn the effecta lambda for approx. 6-7 hours in the evening and by doing so am able to cover my homes need for heat for 24 hours.

If a gasifier is operated in a manner different than the two listed above one can expect decreased efficiency and nagging operation problems to arrise.

I have only had first hand experience with EKO and Paxo boilers but I am assuming that most gasification boilers (Biomass, Vigas, Tarm etc) are allowed to be operated in a manner which turns the draft fan off when a preset high temp. is reached and turns the draft fan back on when a preset low temp. is reached.

The effecta boiler, due to it being manufactured in Sweden and all the Swedish regulations which accompany it, will not operate in idle mode. It must always be used with storage and will shut off the draft fan motor and fully close both the primary and secondary draft openings when the water temperaure in the boiler reaches 96C (205F). In order to start the draft fan after it has shut down, the start button must be pushed. This took me a few days to get used to but having now operated my effecta lambda 35 for over 360 hours of operation, I really like this concept. In addition, it makes me feel good knowing that I am burning wood in the most efficient manner and with minimal emissions leaving the chimney. In a way, this than forces the designer/user/installer of the boiler system to give a lot of forethought to the type, size and location of the water storage system so that the end user is happy with the operation of the gasification boiler system once its up and running.

I realize it is difficult for many of us to change our wood burning habits especially after we have grown up with the "keeping a fire in the boiler 24/7" experience. It does take a little while to get used to but as with anything, once someone does the same thing over and over it becomes a "new habit". Knowing that this " new habit" is treating the environment well and is casusing less wood to be cut, split and consumed is a good reason to continue.

NWM

I'm one of the guys who uses his house as a storage tank. I load up @ 7 am,set temp @ 160 and go to work. It idles a bit if the sun comes out but idle doesn't seem to waste much wood. At 4-5 pm I load again with small popple , boxelder, cedar, pine ETC, then set @ 175* which burns off any creosote. It makes for hot fires so my house goes from 67-72 or so, using all the house as a dump zone for the btu's. Then at 9 pm I load better hardwood and reset back the thermostat to 65 with water temp @ 160. By about 3 am the furnace kicks in when temps go down to 65* When it's a little warmer, I don't load at night. I only load at night from mid Dec to March 1 to mid march. I am on track to use 4 cords for the year, much is boxelder, popple and silver maple. I fill the box accordingly to the temps outside. I can get away with using my house as a storage tank cause it's a new house and is insulated to the max in every way.

I think that massive amounts of masonry could act like storage.

You would probably never have the precise temperature control that is possible with water stored at higher temps to mix down to the current heat load but you might be able to prevent the gasser from idling.

The key to the whole thing is the rate at which the masonry can absorb the heat from the boiler. As long as the mass can keep absorbing the heat that the boiler is putting out , the boiler can keep up the after-burner gassification (and therefore most efficient and cleanest,lowest maintenance).

If your system is only set up to heat the air in the house, you will need to heat the air to a higher temperature than is comfortable to get the stone to absorb the heat output of the boiler as fast as it is being produced. If the masonry had gobs of PEX tubing embedded in it you could store heat into it at a much higher rate and be more likely to keep absorbing heat to keep up with the boiler. The air you live in would then be the final destination for the heat as the stored heat in the masonry is transferred to it rather than the other way around.

What ever you do, size the boiler to the heat loss of your insulated envelope. The more over sized the boiler, the harder it will be to keep up with the burn rate and therefore more idling.

ihookem said:

I'm one of the guys who uses his house as a storage tank. I load up @ 7 am,set temp @ 160 and go to work. It idles a bit if the sun comes out but idle doesn't seem to waste much wood. At 4-5 pm I load again with small popple , boxelder, cedar, pine ETC, then set @ 175* which burns off any creosote. It makes for hot fires so my house goes from 67-72 or so, using all the house as a dump zone for the btu's. Then at 9 pm I load better hardwood and reset back the thermostat to 65 with water temp @ 160. By about 3 am the furnace kicks in when temps go down to 65* When it's a little warmer, I don't load at night. I only load at night from mid Dec to March 1 to mid march. I am on track to use 4 cords for the year, much is boxelder, popple and silver maple. I fill the box accordingly to the temps outside. I can get away with using my house as a storage tank cause it's a new house and is insulated to the max in every way.

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If I loaded according to that schedule, I would have creosote dripping all over the place, even with storage. I fire late in the afternoon and charge up my tank. Hopefully my zones are calling for heat at the same time. and my high mass house is being heated at the same time I'm charging the tank. This is a 5 to 5.5 hour burn and the fire is out by 9.00 or 9:30 and the boiler master switch is shut off. Since the zones had been running for that same period, the house won't call for heat 'till about 2:00 or 3:00 am and will run into the waking hours. The house never calls for heat during the day until 5:00 PM or so (this Sunday and Monday could be an exception) and the process is repeated. BTW this is with radiant heat.

Fred, it seems you are using a lot less wood than me then, or Do you think I'm doing something wrong? I'm happy with 4 cords a year but if I can get by with 3 I might get storage. I have a problem with storage though, I want it in the basement but a tank would be hard to get down there. Next question to all, where can I get a storage tank that is thin enough to get down the basement steps? I don't I need a lot of storage but by the sound of it Fred uses less than I do. It could be the radiant heat though too.

ihookem said:

Fred, it seems you are using a lot less wood than me then, or Do you think I'm doing something wrong? I'm happy with 4 cords a year but if I can get by with 3 I might get storage. I have a problem with storage though, I want it in the basement but a tank would be hard to get down there. Next question to all, where can I get a storage tank that is thin enough to get down the basement steps? I don't I need a lot of storage but by the sound of it Fred uses less than I do. It could be the radiant heat though too.

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You will not cut your wood consumption by 25% by installing storage, all else being equal. I'd bet a lot of money on this...

Speaking of insulation, I have never heard of putting foam on studs before drywall until I read it on this site.

Is that common in different areas of the country?

Bet the dry wallers don't like it.

gg

I have 4" minimum of closed cell foam in the walls. There were some areas we had to cut the foam out cause it went on thicker than 5 1/2" We had to scrape many of the studs to get the foam off with an ice scraper. It is not real common in S.E. Wisconsin but getting more common. There is no draft through the walls anywhere.

barkeatr said:

If I loaded according to that schedule, I would have creosote dripping all over the place, even with storage. I fire late in the afternoon and charge up my tank. Hopefully my zones are calling for heat at the same time. and my high mass house is being heated at the same time I'm charging the tank. This is a 5 to 5.5 hour burn and the fire is out by 9.00 or 9:30 and the boiler master switch is shut off. Since the zones had been running for that same period, the house won't call for heat 'till about 2:00 or 3:00 am and will run into the waking hours. The house never calls for heat during the day until 5:00 PM or so (this Sunday and Monday could be an exception) and the process is repeated. BTW this is with radiant heat.

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IM starting to come around to this thinking...your high mass house must be well insulated with proper window square footage. My question is, when your house calls for heat at 2 or 3pm, is that when it uses the heat from the storage tank? I assume the house uses that storage tank heat from 3am untill 5pm the next day?

barkeater

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Actually the thermostats stay satisfied all day after the zone circulators have shut down at usually around 9:00 am. That's where the high mass of the house picks up. So the system is usually doing nothing from 9:00 pm to 2:00 or 3:00 am and from 9:00 am to 4:00 or 5:00 pm. The only time I'm heating from storage is from 2:00 or 3:00 am to 9:00 am. It's 3:08 right now, 19.9 degrees outside and 70.5 degrees inside and the thermostats have not called for heat since this morning.

goosegunner said:

Speaking of insulation, I have never heard of putting foam on studs before drywall until I read it on this site.

Is that common in different areas of the country?

Bet the dry wallers don't like it.

gg

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Not many normal people do. I'm not normal! The idea came to me back in 1979 when I was building my second house and correcting the mistakes I made on my first house. I don't think you get smarter with age but you get wiser (life's experiences). Everyone I've ever suggested the technique to has sort of brushed it off. But, of course, up 'till now energy conservation hasn't been first on peoples list of priorties. It gives you the advantage of adding the sheetrock on the outside walls to the thermal mass. BTW, I am the dry waller!

stee6043 said:

ihookem said:

Fred, it seems you are using a lot less wood than me then, or Do you think I'm doing something wrong? I'm happy with 4 cords a year but if I can get by with 3 I might get storage. I have a problem with storage though, I want it in the basement but a tank would be hard to get down there. Next question to all, where can I get a storage tank that is thin enough to get down the basement steps? I don't I need a lot of storage but by the sound of it Fred uses less than I do. It could be the radiant heat though too.

Click to expand...

You will not cut your wood consumption by 25% by installing storage, all else being equal. I'd bet a lot of money on this...

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Right, the storage allows me to have one hot fire instead of a continuous fire with idling. With the one hot fire I only have the inefficiency of one start-up where the refractory is not hot enough to be efficient. With continual burning with idling you essentually have several start-ups where the refractory needs more heat to be efficient. The savings in wood is there, but although it is measurable over the heating season, it's not huge.

Ihookem,
What do you have for insulation in your attic?

Fred, I have 21" of cellulose in my attic. I also got energy heels with my trusses. We stuffed fiberglass insulation between the trusses and then sprayed 3" of closed cell foam over the fiberglass and about 4' up the roof sheathing to all but guarantee against ice damming.

ihookem said:

Fred, I have 21" of cellulose in my attic. I also got energy heels with my trusses. We stuffed fiberglass insulation between the trusses and then sprayed 3" of closed cell foam over the fiberglass and about 4' up the roof sheathing to all but guarantee against ice damming.

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Nice, although 21 inches of cellulose is a pretty good guarantee! Good venting, I assume?