$1,200.00 for propane lat month!

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Gregdrose

Member
Jan 23, 2011
8
Northern, N.J.
I live in Northern, NJ and paid $3.00 a gallon for LP last fill up, I have a 1,000 gallon tank and I got $1,200 worth! I am an electrician and built this home in 2007, my home is 3,000 square feet with the finished basement and I have two zones of forced hot air (1st and 2nd floor) and my furnaces are 93% and 80% efficient. I heat my water with propane but I have a whole house instant on heater (no tank) that is 90% efficient. My dryer is electric and my stove is propane. My windows and exterior doors are as energy efficient as I could afford they all are low e argon filled. My exterior walls are only 2X4 but insulated as mush as possible. My great room that has a 14' ceiling, the first floor has 8' foot ceiling, and the second floor has 9'6" tray ceilings. The basement is 65% finished and there is no door on the stair to the basement, it is open. My heat settings are: First floor 4:00 am -8:00 am 64 degrees, 8:00am -3:30 pm 62 degrees, 3:30pm-8:00pm 66 degrees, 8:00pm- 4:00 am 62 degrees. Second floor: 3:30 am- 8:00 am 66 degrees, 8:00 am-4:30pm 60 degrees, 4:30PM- 8:30 PM 64 degrees, 8:30-11:30 66 degrees, 11:30pm- 3:30am 64 degrees. I keep my house cold!!!

For the basement's heat we just tapped off of the first floor heat and put in two registers that don't work at all, my finished basement is cold. I prewired for electric heat and it would be easy to put in baseboard but have not done it yet.

Now in a perfect world I could put a pellet heater in the basement and it would heat the whole house, the first floor has a WIDE open floor plan. I don't spend too much time in the basement and heating it would be nice but my goal is to cut down on my heating bills so if the heat would not rise enough to make a significant difference in the rest of the house I would put the stove elsewhere. I do have a perfect spot in the basement that is kind of out of the way and it is right next to the base of the stair leading to the first floor, I could cut some diffusers int the first floor ceiling/second floor floor at the top of the basement stairs to help move the heat.

I like the layout of the first floor and really don't see a spot there to put a stove that wouldn't look out of place. I do have a perfect spot on the second floor in the master suite, it is supposed to be a sitting area but a stove would fit there nicely but then I would only be heating the second floor (not bad as a worst case scenario) but I read that pellet stoves are noisy. A wood burning stove would be nice but they are not as efficient, control of the temp is not as good, and they are more work.

I could really use some suggestions regarding the placement of the stove and what to buy, I HATE paying so much for heat! Thanks in advance.
 
You have a hot air distribution system that you can make use of in at least two ways.

First is to use that system to circulate the heated air from a pellet stove.

The second is to attach a pellet hot air furnace to it.

You can go bonkers trying to get heat from a pellet stove into all of the nooks and crannies of a house if the layout is convoluted.

I see no need to cut additional holes if an air moving system already exists.

The next thing you need to consider is how big a unit are you going to need.

Do you have the ratings of the two furnaces you have?

You want to get a pellet unit that meets the heating loss of your house at design point at its middle firing rate after taking into consideration the units efficiency.
 
First floor-88,000 BTU's second floor-66,000 BTU's.

I spent alot of money on the on my furnace on the first floor, it is a Rheem with a modulating motor, the fan motor can run at over ten different speeds and the furnace can fire at several levels so it runs a softer heater at a lower speed to evenly distribute the heat, I am told this is more efficient. Do I need to disable this furnace to run a pellet furnace or would I run the fan only with a pellet stove to distribute the heat? I would rather not disable the LP furnace.
 
Noisy?
Go to your selected dealer. If they really want to sell you a stand alone heater they will run it at 100% for you.
I bought a Dell-Point GF-75 4 years ago.
Can't recommend this one.
Still have to watch, but I'm used to this.
Fickle to run this one.
The original design was cheapened up by FPI, a licensed manufacturer.
So many complaints that they stopped making them.
Very quiet, even cranked up like today- 12 below this morning all of the 2600 sq ft above 68 this morning.
No soot outside- it burns it all up.
Ash pan gets emptied every 2 WEEKS.
Clean it every MONTH or so. And it make the same heat clean or dirty.
EPA tested for efficiency. (find another and compare)
The original team that created the Dell-Point are offering an updated version for sale (Paromax) http://www.paromax.ca/index.php?lang=en
If I could do it all again I would buy a Fahrenheit Endurance furnace http://www.fahrenheittech.com/
Or a St. Croix Revolution http://www.stcroixstoves.com/f-revolution.php

Whatever you put in your basement, put it where you want warm floors because without a finished ceiling in your basement, that's what you will get.
And everyone has an opinion about stoves.
I may get flamed, but this is mine.
HF
 
With the proper installation you do not need to disable anything.

The ducting needs a bit of work and some interlocks are needed so no more than one device is feeding the same duct work at a time and that any other unit on that ducting can't start up at the same time.

Nobody is going to tell you this is going to be easy, you have a lot to look into.

Most forced hot air systems can also be run in continuous air circulation mode this is the first use I was talking about and is the simplest use.

You really need to do a sizing as the first step, the forum here is flooded from time to time with problems because that step was never done.
 
Hi Guys first time post here. I'm am a hvac tech but I'm new to pellet stove. installed my first one in my home a few weeks ago and love it. You guys on the forum are great and have answered a lot of questions with out me posting anything just looking around. ok heres my 2 cents on this question, first where is the return located for your central system? if is in the living space on the first and second floors as it should be in newer homes its hard to pull, circulate the air from the basement. if you have an open return or at least return grills in the basement its easy as all your warm air will get sucked into the system and blown threw the house, but bad if its heating cold air from the basement all the time. i read your system has 2 basement registers that don't work well. Look for dampers in the trunk line or on the grills themselves and open if needed. all are easy fixes if you want to put a pellet stove in the basement. cut returns in the basement and open dampers circulating the warm air. if installing on the 2nd floor just run your blower on the furnace it will circ. the air threw the 2nd floor some will make it to the first floor also. hope this helps
 
Both systems have return duct work, no open return plenum. I have two large return grills/duct in the family room on the first floor and on the second floor a main return grill/duct and each bedroom has a return grill/duct. The furnace in the basement has a direct vent through the foundation wall with a fresh air intake. There is no return grill/duct in the basement
 
Before I forget it welcome to the forum dafollweiler and Gregdrose.

We try to help and have fun at the same time.

There is a ton of information on this site make sure you make use of it.
 
Welcome to the forum! There are a lot of very helpful people in here with a load of good information at your fingertips. How much per month has the propane cost you? If you burned $1200.00 worth in a month I would fall over. Our next electric bill will probably be around 275.00 for January which is a touch over 3000kwh. Last year in January we consumed 5026kwh with a 15 seer heat pump and 15kw of staged strips and no pellet stove. The stove is in the basement with a fan blowing air away from the north wall toward the south wall to pull heat toward the north end and blow it toward the stairs. I have burned 1.75 tons of pellets so far of 2 tons that I paid 425.00 for after delivery. The pellets did make a nice difference in our usage but also this winter has not been as cold as last either.
 
We struggled with this same issue. I didn't want to spend the money, time and effort on a stove to only hope the heat would make it upstairs. My advice is a furnace hooked right into your existing ductwork. Good luck!
 
We have house with two levels basement and main floor,its a full finished basement under the first floor,and when we moved here there was a woodstove in the basement and the owner cut holes in each room too allow the heat to come up through.. this did nothing..the only heat we could feel was the vent directly above the woodstove. We, dont have the woodstoves now, i decided when i bought my pellet stove i would install it upstairs..where we are most all the time.. we dont use the pêllet stove for our main heat source, we have a gas furnace, but there are days we just run the stove , the basement gets cold, but the main floor is warm... its 1550sq on the main floor. You keep your house very cold.
 
Welcome Gregdrose,

Thats a lot of propne, WOW. I thought I had it bad with Electric heat,

I am with SmokeyTheBear, I wouldn't mess with a stove unless you just want to assist the propane. I would go right to the forced air furnace. If you also notice these furnaces are multifuelers, They burn longer with less maintanance. They also handle any pellet with ease. Plus you'll have other fuel options just in case.

I couldn't afford the furnace when I bought my stove. My stove is installed in the basement(a no-no). But I did get the multifuel part, I have since modded(I know another no-no) to act like a furnace. The only thing I can add is the cold air return with out major headaches. So I am still circulating heat to my basement. Now I have a taste of what a furnace will do, I am buying one as soon as we can afford it. Much easier to spead the heat around and no more cold spots. House feels way warmer too! We just had the coldest nights of the season so far. Before the mod I was cranking the stove and overheating the area the stove was in. I am now able to just let the stove cruise on the medium setting. Upstairs stayed in the mid 70's and the basement was in the upper 60's.

Keep use posted on what you decide! :)
 
The best decision we made was when we switch from electric baseboard heat to natural gas furnace... Our house is 2,000 sq ft and we spend 1200.00 a year for heat and hot water.. I use the pellet stove on very cold days, too warm a very large room, that way i can keep the furnace down too 68 F..
 
I had the same issue with an oil furnace when oil prices skyrocketed. Also had an old air-tight wood stove that kept the living room too hot and the back bed rooms and bath room freezing. So I bit the bullet and installed a pellet forced air furnace in my basement in parallel with the oil furnace. (Nice to have a back-up.) It was a good decision.

The pellet furnace heat distribution throughout the house is very even and can be controlled by the registers for every duct. The pellet thermostat seems to be more even than the oil furnace thermostat.

Pellet usage is higher than a pellet stove probably due to better heat distribution, and efficiency of the furnace with the duct work. There was quite a bit more maintenance demands than the oil furnace and it is more temperamental than the oil furnace.

The pellet furnace required duct isolation dampers to prevent the heat from one furnace cycling thru the other furnace and back rather than circulating through the house. I needed some electrical control so both furnaces did not come on at the same time. With a little planning these things were not difficult to put in.

I figure the pellet furnace will pay for itself in 4-6 years and heating costs significantly lower. The heat from it is more comfortable than oil heat.

My pellet furnace hopper holds 4 bags (160lbs) of pellets. My ash pan is huge and I only need to empty the ashes one time a year.
 
I went with a direct-duct option with my Fahrenheit furnace - I ran a 10" heat duct up from the duct opening in the furnace, then branched it to two 8" ducts, spread them about 8' apart in my great room on the first floor, on the same side of the floor, so we have two 6x12" registers blasting heat into the great room. We put the return on the opposite side of the great room (about 26' away from the heat ducts). Furnace heats up my great room with ease (where we are 95% of the time when we're awake and in the house) on even the lowest pellet feed rate settings, and the upstairs bedrooms get plenty of warmth as well, just from the heat rising up the stairwell and into the other bedrooms. I did not tie into existing duct work for a number of reasons - (1) cost - several dampers would have been required, and pumping the heat through all of the ducts would have been too much for a 600/800 cfm blower, considering my LP furnace fan is over 2000 cfm. (2) Location - why send heat directly into bedrooms upstairs when we're not there except to sleep? Made much more sense to provide a more direct localized heating into our great room. (3) Having the pellet furnace in the basement keeps all the ash/soot out of our living space, the furnace is out of sight and does not present a burn danger to my 1.5 yr old son.

We cut our LP furnace use down to just once per day in the early morning - we shut the Fahrenheit down at night so my LP furnace does kick on once or twice during the morning hours when my wife and I are waking up for work. The heat from the pellet furnace comes out nice and warm, and spreads a nice even heat throughout our entire 1250 sq. ft. first floor, and it does a good job heating the 1250 sq. ft. 2nd floor, as well as providing some ambient heat in the basement. Couldn't be happier with the setup.
 
The only thing propane is good for is cooking. The entire "lease & maintenance fee" / "min use fee" is crooked as most never even inspect the valve or lines. You are tied into their price.
I would take a look at multi-fuel furnaces and stoves. Even a supplemental pellet stove would help greatly. It would be a quick install. Maybe find a used stove to finish out the season and then look for a furnace & install during the summer. Sell the stove then.
 
Kernel Klinker said:
Noisy?
Go to your selected dealer. If they really want to sell you a stand alone heater they will run it at 100% for you.
I bought a Dell-Point GF-75 4 years ago.
Can't recommend this one.
Still have to watch, but I'm used to this.
Fickle to run this one.
The original design was cheapened up by FPI, a licensed manufacturer.
So many complaints that they stopped making them.
Very quiet, even cranked up like today- 12 below this morning all of the 2600 sq ft above 68 this morning.
No soot outside- it burns it all up.
Ash pan gets emptied every 2 WEEKS.
Clean it every MONTH or so. And it make the same heat clean or dirty.
EPA tested for efficiency. (find another and compare)
The original team that created the Dell-Point are offering an updated version for sale (Paromax) http://www.paromax.ca/index.php?lang=en
If I could do it all again I would buy a Fahrenheit Endurance furnace http://www.fahrenheittech.com/
Or a St. Croix Revolution http://www.stcroixstoves.com/f-revolution.php

Whatever you put in your basement, put it where you want warm floors because without a finished ceiling in your basement, that's what you will get.
And everyone has an opinion about stoves.
I may get flamed, but this is mine.
HF

Hi KK, I think you are right on with most of your post Reference the Europa's. I would take some issue with the summary of FPI's involvement.

We signed up for selling them just as FPI was introducing them into the US market. Our order was delayed for some 4-5 months while they got electrical components to work well. All of the units that we got were mfg after mid year 06 and we had very little problem with them. Ash pan air leaks and inner burn tubes too short yes, and FPI took care of all of them. Why FPI discontinued making them I don't know, but with the economy taking a dip in the next two-three years, NO pellet stove mfg got rich. It almost put Harman out of business from what we have heard. We service many different stoves and DP is likely the easiest to clean and maintain.
 
Have a Harman pf100 which is attached to my forced air furnace. Used to use propane. Now it just sits outside
and is only used for the clothes dryer. Hot water is electric. Kitchen is electric. Rates are low.
Use 7 ton a year, three floors, and very comfortable, especially in the furnace room There is alwlays hot air
circulating throughout the house. I keep in manuel mode, which keeps the fire burning all the time.
Watch for pellet sales.
Getting my next 7 ton delivered from HD tomorrow, only $167.00 delivered.
Now I can enjoy summer and not worry about the price of pellets in the fall.
Been three years and has paid for itself.
Beats that high cost of propane.
 
This is my first post. I'm staring down the barrel of a 1,200 nut for six weeks of pro-pain myself. 2,500 SF home, 7 yrs old, auto thermostat goes down to 60 at night, no higher than 65 all day, not exactly warm. Drafty builder special windows on a windswept lot don't help. I have decided to stop complaining. I'm ordering a Harman PF100 this week. Gonna duct it into the existing system and see how things go.
 
dwk44 said:
This is my first post. I'm staring down the barrel of a 1,200 nut for six weeks of pro-pain myself. 2,500 SF home, 7 yrs old, auto thermostat goes down to 60 at night, no higher than 65 all day, not exactly warm. Drafty builder special windows on a windswept lot don't help. I have decided to stop complaining. I'm ordering a Harman PF100 this week. Gonna duct it into the existing system and see how things go.

dwk, Welcome, hope all goes well with your order and install. Let us know how the install goes.
 
Hi,

I have decided to get a wood stove or a pellet stove for my second floor now and then get a pellet furnace over the summer. I have a perfect spot in the hall on the second floor close to our bedroom, the chimney will go straight up and through the roof. I have been reading this website and learning alot but I need advice, what I would like from either stove is this:

Heat the second floor (between 800-1000 square feet).
Get the the sound and look of our fireplace.
Automatic operation or once a day operation.
Price is very important.
I do like the look of a stove with legs, it seems more traditional.

I am little nervous leaving a wood burning stove operating when no one is home, if it burnt over night would it still give off heat throughout the day?
Will my bedroom be 90 degrees because the stove will be right outside the area where we sleep?
I would like to do the install myself, I am an electrician and built my own home.

Please give me some direction and suggestions what to buy.

Thanks for your help.
 
If you are going up and out, consider the stove pipe with the outside air as part exhaust pipe. Also, access to the exhaust pipe is important. If it is up on your roof, you, or someone you hire may need to get up there and clean it out after burning a couple of tons. Pellet stoves and the exhaust systems need a lot of cleaning or you won't be happy with it. If you are concerned about the temp being even, try getting a stove with a wall thermostat. If cost is an issue, try looking at CR for a used unit; if you are handy, you can clean the unit up. Dirty stoves are the most common cause leading people to not wanting them. Find a stove you like the looks of then put that name in the quick search box upper left of this page and you will get a variety of threads discussing each unit.
But, like Smokey said, use your existing hot air system in conjunction with a hot air biomass furnace if you want to have a nice even heat through out your home. 3000 sg ft is way too much to expect one stove to handle, but with a furnace, you should be just fine. If I were in your shoes, I would go talk with the furnace folks first. Have a few come to your home and give you some prices. I would do that before putting in the pellet stove because even the pellet stove is going to cost, and it is questionable if you will recover that cost vs what you are doing now if you anticipate doing both the stove and the furnace. We have one forum member, Snowy, who has a large place, but she runs up to three stoves depending upon her heating needs. She also burns nut shells. I doubt you have much access to anything but wood pellets. Keep an eye open for bulk delivery. Cheaper, but it is a storage issue. If you can, post some pictures and tell us how you are making out with you new pellet burning units. Good luck!
 
Since The OP is primarily unhappy about the COST of his present heating system, not so much the performance, it would seem to me that a heads-up comparison of the local cost of all other available power source should be the first step, together with the relative efficiencies plus installation and tax rebate (if any) costs.

Perhaps I missed it, but did you already list your natural gas, electrical power, wood pellet and firewood rates?

Once these numbers are on the table a discussion of how to save heating costs becomes much easier. Moreover, the results may sometimes be quite surprising!

Henk
 
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