Chimney creosote from RR ties?

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WoodpileOCD

WoodpileOCD

Minister of Fire
Jan 19, 2011
722
Central NC
Without getting into the morals of what comes out of your stack if you were to burn RR ties, I'd like your thought on creosote buildup. I have to admit, I have burned them on occasion in my old stove but no longer. Whenever the subject would come up, the reaction was almost universally "you can't do that, they are full of creosote".

My thought process goes along these lines.
Yes they are treated with creosote but creosote in the firebox is just another fuel to burn. Creosote buildup in the chimney is from the condensation of unburned or partially burned gases. Creosote in the box should burn just as hot and just as fast as creosote in a chimney fire and we've probably all seen video of that if not in person.

Anyway, I'd love to hear, from a technical perspective, what you think. Am I completely off base in my understanding of combustion? Most of the people I've talked to are the same ones who will tell you you should never burn pine because of creosote buildup but I know that dried properly, it burns as good and as completely as any other wood (just get tired of loading it in).

Thoughts?
 
Who cares about the stove. Man, Its the off gassing that comes out of your chimney that people breath from burning that crap. If my neighbor ever did that and had my kids breathing that in,... well it wouldn't be pretty. Dont even consider it anymore.
Sorry but that = bad chemicals in the air.

I know what you said in the 1st sentence. Just even hate hearing about it. SORRY
 
north of 60 said:
Who cares about the stove. Man, Its the off gassing that comes out of your chimney that people breath from burning that crap. If my neighbor ever did that and had my kids breathing that in,... well it wouldn't be pretty. Dont even consider it anymore.
Sorry but that = bad chemicals in the air.

I know what you said in the 1st sentence. Just even hate hearing about it. SORRY
Click to expand...

Yea, that didn't help the point of the discussion any. Just trying to understand combustion better. Do you have anything to add in that regard?
 
Is the "creosote" used in railroad ties the exact same "creosote" that is formed as a by-product of incomplete combustion of firewood? The reason I ask is that in industry many times different chemicals can take on the same name.

If they're exactly the same, and you have some sort of high efficiency stove that can effectively burn off the creosote, then I can't see why it would pollute any more than a normal wood fire.


ETA, a quick search shows that they aren't the same thing. Wood creosote is very different from coal tar creosote (used in railroad ties). Wood creosote is even used as a treatment for diarrhea, while a person would never think of putting coal tar creosote in their body.

IMHO, you shouldn't burn railroad ties for that reason...
 
CountryBoy19 is correct, it's not the same 'creosote' used to treat railroad ties as is found in wood burning.
 
The question is whether the conditions in your firebox (temperature and oxygen supply) are sufficient to burn up the 'creosote' used to treat railroad ties, or whether some of the creosote is partially combusted into a material similar to the creosote produced by a wood fire. Then the next question is whether the vapor or particles from the burning creosote are likely to accumulate in the chimney. My guess is that given enough oxygen the tar used to treat railroad ties burns hotter and more completely than wood, so it is possible to burn railroad ties without creosote accumulation in the chimney. My guess is also that burning railroad ties treated only with some form of petroleum product, you could have a burn that didn't produce anything too much worse than a diesel engine or coal stove produces. Petreoleum hydrocarbons burn up to water and CO2 given the right conditions, and i think chemically tar is somewhere between fuel oil and coal, both of which can be burned more or less cleanly given the right appliance. On the other hand, burning modern pressure treated lumber is bound to produce nasty toxic compounds because the chemicals used to treat it are not just carbon and hydrogen. Please keep in mind that I don't really know how railroad ties are made; I am assuming they are nothing but wood and petroleum-based tar. I think at one point in history they were, but that may have changed.

I wonder whether a wood stove can produce the right conditions to cleanly burn petroleum-treated wood. Why can't you burn coal in a wood stove? I think it is because the wood stove doesn't provide enough air to completely burn the coal, and because the heat of burning coal is too high for the wood stove. Why shouldn't you burn liquid petroleum fuels in a wood stove? Aside from the problem of how to control the delivery of the liquid to the fire, there is the danger of fumes building up and exploding. I wonder if burning wood soaked in petroleum would combine the dangers of coal and liquid fuels in one convenient package.

So in conclusion, I don't know the answer to your question, but I think it is more complicated than the creosote in the wood simply surviving the fire and moving up in to the chimney to form chimney creosote, which despite the name isn't even the same substance as railroad tie creosote.
 
Creosote treated poles also contain pesticides. Pentachlorophenol is one. It's a nasty carcinagenic compound and an irritant if in vapor form. I hope your stove is air-tight.
 
WoodpileOCD said:
Thoughts?
Click to expand...


I'd be banned for certain.



coal tar creosote is not what forms in your chimney.
 
You can burn coal in some wood stoves. It's not a matter of enough air, but the way the air enters the firebox. Also the way the grates are set up. I don't think burning a chemical soaked timber is comparable to burning a fuel used commenly by many home burners.
 
Sir, I have in years past burnt old cut up railroad ties. They were treated with railroad creosote which is NOT the same as the creosote we get from burning wood. The ties burnt good and hot and I would often burn some not really seasoned wood with them. They burnt clean and no deposits were ever found in my flue. The only thing was they were a little stinky outside if there wasn't much wind. It helps if you live by yourself without a lot of neighbors. All in all I thought they were good fuel and would burn them again if I had the chance. David
 
Thanks for the interesting discussion. Although not answered conclusively, I have discovered that creosote is almost a 'catch all' phrase and what is formed from incomplete combustion is not the same as what is in RR ties. I did a little hunting and found this.

1.1 What is creosote?
Creosote is the name used for a variety of products that are mixtures of many chemicals. Wood creosotes are derived from the resin from leaves of the creosote bush (Larrea, referred to herein as creosote bush resin) and beechwood (Fagus, referred to herein as beechwood creosote). Coal tars are by-products of the carbonization of coal to produce coke or natural gas. Coal tar creosotes are distillation products of coal tar, and coal tar pitch is a residue produced during the distillation of coal tar. Coal tar pitch volatiles are compounds given off from coal tar pitch when it is heated. Coal tar creosote, coal tar, coal tar pitch, and coal tar pitch volatiles are rarely formed in nature.

It is from a group called the Agency for Toxic Substances and Disease Registry and here is a link to the original article. http://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/phs/phs.asp?id=64&tid=18

Although it deals primarily with the health effects of creosote it has a lot of info on what exactly it is.

Anyway, I learned something which was the point to begin with.

My father was a lifelong fireman and I spent many a Saturday collecting (read scrounging) just about anything that would burn and cutting it up with a two man cross cut saw. This included many RR ties which were kind of like gold when you could find them. He was very fire conscious and it didn't seem to worry him too much. Boy do they create a rip roaring fire.


Rusty
 
Okay,I don't want to hear anything about morals so don't even go there.

Can anyone tell me how well old tires and paint cans would burn in my stove?
I am also thinking about throwing in some old car batteries to see what kind
of free BTU's I can get out of them.I get really good burn times from 1 gallon
plastic containers of used motor oil. I stack them North/South 3 deep by 5 rows.
Do young kittens burn well in the stove?

Don't give me any grief about what I choose to burn in my stove,it's my stove and
my environment and I'll burn what I want. LOL!!!!!
 
okotoks guy said:
Okay,I don't want to hear anything about morals so don't even go there.

Can anyone tell me how well old tires and paint cans would burn in my stove?
I am also thinking about throwing in some old car batteries to see what kind
of free BTU's I can get out of them.I get really good burn times from 1 gallon
plastic containers of used motor oil. I stack them North/South 3 deep by 5 rows.
Do young kittens burn well in the stove?

Don't give me any grief about what I choose to burn in my stove,it's my stove and
my environment and I'll burn what I want. LOL!!!!!
Click to expand...

:lol: My thoughts exactly. Glad you wrote it though, that's good stuff. Especially from a guy with a Neely jersey! :cheese:
 
In my childhood small town there was a welding shop which was heated by an early form of OWB that was fueled with ties for years.

Not saying it was a good thing but the owner's heat costs were dirt cheap :)

In referencing the used motor oil..... I know of two OWB users who utilized used motor oil as fuel. One fellow would take any log which had a hollow core and pour the oil into the upended log to allow the oil to soak into it for a day or two prior to placing it in the boiler. At one point the individual found a good source of used deep fat fryer oil which they promptly switched up to ...... Because it smelled better.

The other individual was more ingenious. As they were chronically short of firewood he devised a plan to use short metal pails, 2-3 gallon I believe, which were filled with the oil. He learned that a cardboard "lid" on the oil allowed the burn rate and surface to be controlled.

As in the first scenario with ties the cost to heat 2 houses and a garage was incredibly inexpensive.

DO NOT ATTEMPT THESE STUNTS AT HOME. ;)
 
okotoks guy said:
Okay,I don't want to hear anything about morals so don't even go there.

Can anyone tell me how well old tires and paint cans would burn in my stove?
I am also thinking about throwing in some old car batteries to see what kind
of free BTU's I can get out of them.I get really good burn times from 1 gallon
plastic containers of used motor oil. I stack them North/South 3 deep by 5 rows.
Do young kittens burn well in the stove?

Don't give me any grief about what I choose to burn in my stove,it's my stove and
my environment and I'll burn what I want. LOL!!!!!
Click to expand...

Ha- sounds like the guy two houses over.
Burns his garbage in the BBQ.
The neighbors call the cops and the fire department.
He's had looooooooong talks with the chief.
Now he burns at night, tiny bits real quick to beat the response time.
He still never puts any trash out for pick-up on Tuesday mornings.

Can't understand why his neighbors are so hostile.
 
okotoks guy said:
Okay,I don't want to hear anything about morals so don't even go there.

Can anyone tell me how well old tires and paint cans would burn in my stove?
I am also thinking about throwing in some old car batteries to see what kind
of free BTU's I can get out of them.I get really good burn times from 1 gallon
plastic containers of used motor oil. I stack them North/South 3 deep by 5 rows.
Do young kittens burn well in the stove?

Don't give me any grief about what I choose to burn in my stove,it's my stove and
my environment and I'll burn what I want. LOL!!!!!
Click to expand...

Yeah can you imagine that....that guy probably spent more time and effort looking for railroad ties than he would have just
cutting a tree down and seasoning it the right way...I can bet it is an outdoor furnace too. And that's not saying that all people with outdoor
furnaces are that reckless. Some burn correctly and use them the way they were designed. And then you have the people that don't
care about what their neighbors think and will burn ANYTHING in it. What a shame!
 
If the neighbors complane about the smoke you can always cut them up for fuel.
 
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