I'm not sure basement insulation is your problem but there is an easy way to install some. Code in my new house required insulation even on the unfinished basement. Since it was a walkout 2 of the walls were framed, insulated normally with R19 fiberglass, and drywalled. On the remaining poured concrete walls the builder was able to simply hang 6ft wide (I think) sheets of heavy vinyl backed fiberglass (probably R13). They are stapled at the top and just hang down with the seams taped together. Since only 1/3 of your basement needs it I can imagine it would cost too much and definitely would be an easy job to do. I'm not sure the retail giants carry the insulation however since I've never seen it there. You might have to deal with a Contractor's Supply house. The heavy white vinyl backing replaces the paper kraft facing you are probably used to seeing. I had to made a hole in mine to route some underground pex lines in the house. Therefore, I do know that Home Depot sells the heavy duty white vinyl tape needed for the seams. I'm not sure this will solve your problem but I will note that with only 1 of 6 basement vents open on a forced air system, my basement is at most maybe a couple of degrees colder than the main floor even at temps of 5F or less. At any rate, it will lower your heat load, burn less wood, and determine whether you need a bigger stove.
New Stove just not cutting it
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thechimneysweep
Minister of Fire
Stealthfarmer, a basement that is only 1/3 uninsulated is like a rowboat that is only missing 1/3 of its floorboards. For all practical heating purposes, there is virtually no difference between a partially insulated basement and an uninsulated basement.
The Super 27 might just be the best 2 cubic foot wood stove ever designed, but there is simply no way it is up to this task. I can testify that this stove lives up to the manufacturer's claim that it will heat up to 2,000 sq.ft., but the 2,000 sq.ft. homes it is heating are here in the Seattle area, where the average January temperature is 41 degrees F (+5C). These are new, well-insulated, one-story homes with thermopane windows and 8' ceilings. Even in our mild climate, I wouldn't recommend the Super 27 to heat a 1,000 sq.ft. upstairs from a partially insulated 1,000 sq.ft. basement!
I'm actually amazed at your report that at 5F (-15C), the Super 27 is able to heat the upstairs bedrooms at the far end of the house to 61F (16C), and the room directly above the stove to 68F (20C). At -15C, I consider this a heroic performance for a 2 cubic foot firebox of any make, model or vintage. However, as you've already discovered, the "stoking it till it glows" approach is not only too labor intensive, but will eventually destroy the stove.
You were given bad advice by your dealer, and will need a much larger, more powerful stove to heat the house you describe from an uninsulated basement in your climate. See if your dealer will trade the Super 27 in before you melt it down to a puddle of goo.
I'm heating from a very similar situation to yours. I can vouch that heating from a basement without insulation takes alot of BTU's from a big stove. And IMO there aren't any really big EPA stoves. Others here might think they have big stoves but in reality there just aren't any more power houses built. Its just like there aren't any real big cars made either. You aren't doing anything wrong. You just have more heat loss than what the stove can overcome. Options are to insulate basement (as so many have said), cut whole in floor to try and let more heat from basement move directly upstairs, or add another stove upstairs. Its taken me quite awhile to understand how so many report great success heating with these small EPA stoves. Its easy, because they are for the most part have them sitting in the living room that is all of 400 sq ft or so in a well insulated home. Oh, and I too haven't found where a fan or blower does anything but make noise.StealthFarmer said:
Renovation
New Member
Pagey said:
Thanks Pagey,
I hadn't seen that, and it's very informative. Kudos to Woodstock for writing it.
krex1010
Minister of Fire
I dont put too much stock in what dealers say, when I was shopping I had a few come and check my house and they all wanted to sell me small inserts, they said they would be plenty and anything larger would be overkill. I am glad I listened to alot of the people here and I went with a mid size stove. I am really happy I did because I know I would be unhappy with the stoves that the dealers recommended.StealthFarmer said:
Local dealer refused to sell me a T6. Said it would drive us out of the house. Fortunately Tom had a more objective POV. Dealer 0, Tom +1.
summit
Minister of Fire
Thank you all for your replies. I was away for the day and couldn't respond.
So the consensus is I have a few issues. A dealer who sold me not enough stove for my house. despite coming to look at it, and then compounding the error by selling it and installing it. He told me it would "roast me out of the house, and put my the old one to shame." The old one BTW is a Warnock Hersey but I can't see much more because the label is filthy. About the same size as my super 27 though. Rough shape, firebricks melted away or gone and just looking burnt to a crisp. When I looked at the house in Feb it was running. I moved in to it in may and refused to run it because it looked so bad. Had the dealer come out to inspect it and here I sit.
So my options are to insulate the rest of the basement or get a bigger stove or I might have to do both. I wish I knew which because if I'm spending that kind of money to do both I will buy a wood furnace instead because I KNOW that will work. My neighbour has his in his 3000sq foot ancient farmhouse in a rock unfinished basement and it is tropical in there.
I'm willing to bet my dealer will screw me on a trade in, if he agrees at all. I'm also not inclined to give him any more of my money because clearly he's a moron. He knew the score when he looked at the place and installed it. I would have taken a summit if that was what he said.
Angry I am.
So the consensus is I have a few issues. A dealer who sold me not enough stove for my house. despite coming to look at it, and then compounding the error by selling it and installing it. He told me it would "roast me out of the house, and put my the old one to shame." The old one BTW is a Warnock Hersey but I can't see much more because the label is filthy. About the same size as my super 27 though. Rough shape, firebricks melted away or gone and just looking burnt to a crisp. When I looked at the house in Feb it was running. I moved in to it in may and refused to run it because it looked so bad. Had the dealer come out to inspect it and here I sit.
So my options are to insulate the rest of the basement or get a bigger stove or I might have to do both. I wish I knew which because if I'm spending that kind of money to do both I will buy a wood furnace instead because I KNOW that will work. My neighbour has his in his 3000sq foot ancient farmhouse in a rock unfinished basement and it is tropical in there.
I'm willing to bet my dealer will screw me on a trade in, if he agrees at all. I'm also not inclined to give him any more of my money because clearly he's a moron. He knew the score when he looked at the place and installed it. I would have taken a summit if that was what he said.
Angry I am.
littlesmokey
Minister of Fire
Do they still take liers and cheat in Canada out to the curb and shoot them??? I would document the errs on the part of the dealer and take them to him and say, I will pay 20% of the difference in cost of my stove and the one I should have had and we will call it even. Otherwise, Your new hot tib is really my new stove.
Jimbob
Minister of Fire
StealthFarmer said:
Me thinks the "old" stove had to work pretty hard too, to heat the house.
He should have sold you a Summit, or an EPA wood furnace, like the caddy:
http://www.psg-distribution.com/product.aspx?CategoId=16&Id=335&Page=fiche
Worst thing is I knew the dealer personally and he still screwed me. I'm going to rake him over the coals and if I get no satisfaction I will go to PE themselves. It probably won't go anywhere but its worth the try.
littlesmokey
Minister of Fire
StealthFarmer said:
Well, you are wrong about this one, it will go some where. You have the entire Site behind you. They paralegalhealthfinders. Crap that's the truth, but the worst connection.
lethal dose
Member
StealthFarmer said:
Give him a chance to make it right before jumping on him. He would have made more money off the bigger stove, so assume he really thought he was correct. Let him know you have a problem, but are glad you got the stove from a friend that's going to make it good. If the stove is almost new he can use it as a floor model until it sells.
VCBurner
Minister of Fire
Sorry to jump in late on this one. I used to heat my 1000 sq ft ranch from the basement with a pre EPA stove. Total basement space heated was 750 sq. ft. plus 1000 upstairs. This makes it a 1750 sq. ft. space. The old Surdiac had a small firebox, but really pushed out the heat with its huge heat exchanger attached to the back of it. It was like having two stoves burning instead of one. The only thing was, I could only get 5-6 hours between reloads. So I had to start from scratch every morning. And the thing chewed through wood, struggling to handle January weather. So I bought an EPA rated stove. Mid size that could heat up to 1600 sq ft. The stove did a great job at keeping temperatures constant but struggled with really low temps bellow the teens Farenheight. The basement was uninsulated. The concrete foundation walls all around were sucking up the heat like crazy. I've since put the stove upstairs and what a difference. It has not been bellow 68f in here, even with the latest bout of arctic weather we had. And I have not had to use a match at all. Most of the time I have to try not to overheat the room the stove is in. I've learned a few things from my experiences.
1) Heat is always better where you spend most of the time.
2) You can't heat more than your stove was intended to heat from an uninsulated basement.
3) Bigger is always better: you can't create more heat from a small firebox, but you can build smaller fires in a big firebox.
Here's what I think your best solution is:
1)Insulate your basement. It may seem like a lot of work, but it will pay off dividends no matter what you're heating with. Then, your stove will be able to heat the 2000 sq ft more adequately. You may find your new stove to be just fine after insulating and finishing the basement. I'm Assuming you must heat the basement, as you mentioned. Otherwise, I would definitely recommend moving it upstairs. Do you have a chimney there?
I'd recommend trying step 1 first then see what happens. Unless, you find it possible to move your stove upstairs. Then you can probably skip the basement insulation altogether and be warmer.
2)Get a bigger stove to heat the whole house (including your newly insulated basement,) even during the coldest of Canadian nights. A stove rated to heat 2000 sq ft, will not heat 2000 sq ft, during extreme temperatures! Or the other option would be to get a smaller stove and add it to the upstairs for those really cold spells. Believe me!! You will love sitting by the fire in your livingroom in a T-shirt. When most people who pay the oil man are freezing in their boots at home.
3)You need to get the cold air to the stove. Don't try to push the hot air into the cold parts of the house. Put a small fan in the doorway of the coldest room pointing outward, thus creating negative pressure in the room. Let a minute or two go by and stand in the doorway with your hand raised, face the same direction the fan is blowing. You should feel a rush of hot air go by your hand into the room. The warm air is being sucked into the room by the pressure you created with the fan. Make sure you burn dry hard wood and get the stove cranking at peak BTU output for this test (at safe operating temperatures of course.) If this works, put another fan on the other side of the house in the same way. You'll get the air circulation you need to get the heat upstairs.
Trusting the word of one person on the size of your stove was your worst mistake. If you read the manual or specs on the stove it'll probably state somewhere, that climate extremes will greatly impact the sq fotage specifications. But don't get discouraged, there is a solution to this problem. You just have to find it. BTW, there's a reason why the firebricks on the old stove were all but gone. The guy was probably pushing the heck out of it to heat the house. If you took the firebrick out of your PE and ran it at 900 degrees f, you could probably do it too!! :bug: I highly doubt he only used 4.5 cords to heat 2000 sq ft of a Canadian house from the unfinished basement. I used almost 7 cords to heat 1750 sq ft from my unfinished basement in Massachusetts. I also ran an antique cast iron camp stove in my fireplace when it got really cold. I would say he used at least 7 cords. This year I'll probably use 3-4 cords to heat my house for the entire heating season. September-May.
Good luck with this situation. Elaborate a little more on your set up upstairs. And ask questions about the insulation if you need to, people are very helpful here. I'm a carpenter, you can pick my brains if need be. Just PM with any questions or ask them here on this thread.
1) Heat is always better where you spend most of the time.
2) You can't heat more than your stove was intended to heat from an uninsulated basement.
3) Bigger is always better: you can't create more heat from a small firebox, but you can build smaller fires in a big firebox.
Here's what I think your best solution is:
1)Insulate your basement. It may seem like a lot of work, but it will pay off dividends no matter what you're heating with. Then, your stove will be able to heat the 2000 sq ft more adequately. You may find your new stove to be just fine after insulating and finishing the basement. I'm Assuming you must heat the basement, as you mentioned. Otherwise, I would definitely recommend moving it upstairs. Do you have a chimney there?
I'd recommend trying step 1 first then see what happens. Unless, you find it possible to move your stove upstairs. Then you can probably skip the basement insulation altogether and be warmer.
2)Get a bigger stove to heat the whole house (including your newly insulated basement,) even during the coldest of Canadian nights. A stove rated to heat 2000 sq ft, will not heat 2000 sq ft, during extreme temperatures! Or the other option would be to get a smaller stove and add it to the upstairs for those really cold spells. Believe me!! You will love sitting by the fire in your livingroom in a T-shirt. When most people who pay the oil man are freezing in their boots at home.
3)You need to get the cold air to the stove. Don't try to push the hot air into the cold parts of the house. Put a small fan in the doorway of the coldest room pointing outward, thus creating negative pressure in the room. Let a minute or two go by and stand in the doorway with your hand raised, face the same direction the fan is blowing. You should feel a rush of hot air go by your hand into the room. The warm air is being sucked into the room by the pressure you created with the fan. Make sure you burn dry hard wood and get the stove cranking at peak BTU output for this test (at safe operating temperatures of course.) If this works, put another fan on the other side of the house in the same way. You'll get the air circulation you need to get the heat upstairs.
Trusting the word of one person on the size of your stove was your worst mistake. If you read the manual or specs on the stove it'll probably state somewhere, that climate extremes will greatly impact the sq fotage specifications. But don't get discouraged, there is a solution to this problem. You just have to find it. BTW, there's a reason why the firebricks on the old stove were all but gone. The guy was probably pushing the heck out of it to heat the house. If you took the firebrick out of your PE and ran it at 900 degrees f, you could probably do it too!! :bug: I highly doubt he only used 4.5 cords to heat 2000 sq ft of a Canadian house from the unfinished basement. I used almost 7 cords to heat 1750 sq ft from my unfinished basement in Massachusetts. I also ran an antique cast iron camp stove in my fireplace when it got really cold. I would say he used at least 7 cords. This year I'll probably use 3-4 cords to heat my house for the entire heating season. September-May.
Good luck with this situation. Elaborate a little more on your set up upstairs. And ask questions about the insulation if you need to, people are very helpful here. I'm a carpenter, you can pick my brains if need be. Just PM with any questions or ask them here on this thread.
We had a snowstorm today so I couldn't call the dealer. I assume he'll be in tomorrow and I will see what he says about upgrading my stove. I really feel he should. After all, he came here to inspect my house and setup and recommended his product. He knew the how big the place is, how much of the basement was not insulated, and insisted that the 27 was the right product. Then he installed it. He is supposed to be the professional so why did he sell me too small a stove? Anyhow, I will find that out.
Moving the stove upstairs will not be an option. It would be more expensive than getting a bigger stove and insulating the basement. The chimney in situated in such a way that the only place to put the stove would be in the hallway or entrance to the living room. It would leave little room to get by in either case and look downright ugly. I'd have to move the chimney and that's not happening. Btw I have hardwood floors and no carpet.
Insulating the basement is my best option so far. I'll need to cover about 30 feet of cinderblock wall. What would be the easiest and most cost effective way to go about this? How do I attach it to the wall?
I've also placed a fan in the coldest room facing out as suggested and it has helped that room a lot. Its up to about 18C and the living room has dropped a degree. At least it isn't freezing back there.
I still thin there is a control issue with my stove.
Thanks.
Moving the stove upstairs will not be an option. It would be more expensive than getting a bigger stove and insulating the basement. The chimney in situated in such a way that the only place to put the stove would be in the hallway or entrance to the living room. It would leave little room to get by in either case and look downright ugly. I'd have to move the chimney and that's not happening. Btw I have hardwood floors and no carpet.
Insulating the basement is my best option so far. I'll need to cover about 30 feet of cinderblock wall. What would be the easiest and most cost effective way to go about this? How do I attach it to the wall?
I've also placed a fan in the coldest room facing out as suggested and it has helped that room a lot. Its up to about 18C and the living room has dropped a degree. At least it isn't freezing back there.
I still thin there is a control issue with my stove.
Thanks.
SKIN052
Minister of Fire
I am heating a 2600Sf home right now with a Summit, temps upstairs are 25c and downstairs is like a sauna. For the poster to have only 20 plus 6 feet from the stoves screams that something is really wrong. Insulation in the basement is your issue. Lots of exposed cinder block and poor insulation downstairs is robbing the heat and not allowing it to get upstairs. Great stove with crazy draft and no heat? Something does not add up. Stack temps should not be that high. Do the dollar bill test, how high is the chimney?BeGreen said:
Easiest way to insulate that wall is to get the proper construction adhesive and glue on some 1.5-2" foam panels. Don't skimp on the glue, get the big contractor cartridges and put a very generous bead on the back. Wait a minute, then hold in place until the glue is starting to hold.
marine5068
Member
StealthFarmer said:
Sorry to hear of all the problems with your new stove and set-up.
I'm also in Canada(near Belleville Ontario) and can attest to some idiot dealers who THINK they know everything about heating with wood stoves and pellet stoves.
I have two guys that are stove dealers near me at two different stores that I can't stand.
In stoves, bigger is always better and the lesson here is never take the word of someone as gospel. (I know he should have known better, but some sellers are just salesmen and only interested in your cash)
Here's what I would do in you situation.
If you're not happy with the stove, get it fixed to the best it can be and put it up for sale the next heating season. OR keep it for an upstairs install.(After all, you may not get what you want for it, even privately sold. And it IS a nice, new stove after all.)
Then go out and get another larger one or like you said, a wood furnace. Home Hardware in Canada sells a HUGE 3600sq ft. model stove by the way. It's called the "Ultimate" and it's the largest EPA certified wood stove sold in North America. It's around $1400 I think. Check it out on their site. I've added the pic of it here.
Also go get some R20 fibreglass batt insulation(6" think x 18" wide stuff) and frame in the exposed basement walls and install the insulation in them.
The reason I say R20 fibreglass batt, is that it is the cheapest stuff for the money.
My basement is like yours in a way and I also heat with a woodstove located in the basement. My stove is a cheap Century 2000sq. ft model, but heats the whole basement and upstairs well as I have all four walls insulated with R20 Fibreglass batt insulation under drywall.
Make sure that you seal the insulation in with a poly vapour barrier too. Use 9Mil thickness for best results and tape ALL the joints sealed. Then add you finished wallboard of your choosing(drywall, beadboard, tongue & groove Pine , etc.).
These are just tips for you to use and I hope all works out well for you and you have good wood heat soon.
~Stan (Madoc, Ontario, Canada)
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VCBurner
Minister of Fire
BeGreen said:
I agree. Sometimes codes state that foam cannot be left uncovered due to fire code. Especially in a stove room. Foam and 2x4 PT (pressure treated) studs frame with drywall on top. Rip the studs in half and attach on the wall in between the 1 1/2" foam. Vertically. Very easy to do. Inexpensive. Wire nails on the block wall (drill 3/16 whole on top and bottom of the studs insert a piece of tie wire, about 4 inches long and a 16D nail.) Make sure to drill the wholes in the mortar joints for easier drilling. No need to glue the foam, the drywall will hold it in place. Run the 1/2" drywall horizontally. Make sure the vertical seems land on the studs, you may need to cut the drywall so it does. Apply mesh tape on the seems. Apply a coat of joint compound just covering the mesh. Don't try to get it perfect. Sand the first coat after it dries. Apply two more coats, sanding in between. The trick is to apply thin smooth coats not try to do it all in one thick coat. Each coat a little wider than the other. For 30' of wall you'll need 8 sheets of drywall, 12@ 2x4 PT studs, roll of wire nail, 2lb. of 16D galvinized nails, 24 pieces of rigid foam insullation @1 1/2". a small roll of mesh tape, small bucket of joint compound, 5 lb box of 1 1/4 drywall screws.
Tools:circular saw (table saw optional,) small hammer drill w/ 3/16" bit, hammer, tape measure, knife, drywall saw, screw gun (or cordless drill), saw horses, plyers, taping knife, plastic mud bucket or hawk, foam sanding block.
You should be able to get 30' of wall done in one weekend! I hope I remembered everything. Let me know if your up to it. I'll give you some more pointers. Feel free to ask.
Chris
VCBurner said:
My suggestion would be to use a .22 caliber Hilty gun to attach the studs to cinder block. MUCH faster than drilling....just be sure to have safety glasses, hearing protection and thick gloves.
tcassavaugh
Minister of Fire
StealthFarmer said:
I bought a PE Summit last year, installed it in my finished basement and was also disappointed with its performance. Then i realized that my wood wasn't as "seasoned" as it could have been. This year is better but I'm still not convinced it runs better than my old VC Large CAT stove. While certainly a bigger box, not sure it pumps as much heat even though it is rated to heat 3000 sq ft (i have 2800 upstairs and down). I still have the VC and have looked at it many a time thinking about putting it back in place...but then i think i'll probably get a Blaze King next year so we can "set and forget" and get the longer burn times for awhile.
Good luck
cass
potter
Feeling the Heat
I agree to give the dealer a chance, if you go in angry, odds are given human nature, he'll dig in his heels. Everyone makes mistakes and miscalculations.
Nearly new, he should be able to sell it pretty easily.
I have to say as someone with a Oslo in the basement of a 1000 sq. ft. home, much advice was given to get a smaller stove. Something else might have worked, but I've seen no down side to "too big".
Nearly new, he should be able to sell it pretty easily.
I have to say as someone with a Oslo in the basement of a 1000 sq. ft. home, much advice was given to get a smaller stove. Something else might have worked, but I've seen no down side to "too big".
VCBurner
Minister of Fire
I agree, there's a vast array of powder actuated guns or even gas and battery guns by Hilty and Ramset as well as other companies out there. Just thought the hammer drill would be easier to find and cheaper.richg said:
The 2-2 1/4" Hilty nails you would need as well as the shots are expensive. I'm a union carpenter, so we use these guns on a daily basis on major commercial projects. On a thirty foot wall drilling the wholes may not be too bad, but if you want to spend the money, you'll get it done faster with a gun of course.
VCBurner
Minister of Fire
potter said:
Beautiful stove! The Oslo is rated to heat 2000 sq ft. if you have it in the basement is your main floor 1000 sq ft.? The basement must be 1000 sq ft right? Are you heating a total of 2000 sq ft?
Jøtul F 500 Oslo
•Maximum heat output: 70,000 BTU/hr
•Heating capacity: Up to 2,000 sq.ft
•Over 75% efficient
•Log length: 22"
•Burn time: Up to 9 hours
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