After I get though this winter I'll be looking for another source of heat for my house. I have a Harman TL 300 stove that I feel does not adequately perform as my dealer said it would nor like Harman claims it would. I burn 1.25 to 1.5 face cords of dry hardwoods (oak, hard maple, beech and birch) per week. In order to heat my 2300 square foot home (1150sq ft. is basement where the stove is located) when its below freezing I more or less have to burn the stove wide open to get the basement to a scorching 80 degrees, which gets my upstairs to the low 70's. Any other stove that I am familiar with when burnt wide open for extended periods of time would roast you right out. We have an old Shrader stove in a hunting camp that when burnt any thing more than completely dampered down will roast you right out of the place, which is 1200 square feet sitting on piers, so there is a lot of cold air coming up through the floor. I lived in the camp for a few winters and burnt about 1/4 the amount of wood I burn now and had windows open much of the time. The heat output frustrates me, but more so than that is the timing of the gears that open the lid keeps getting messed up. I had my dealer there once last winter and 4 times so far this winter. When I open the lid to reload the stove it skips past opening the rear damper. He can't seem to fix it and I refuse to attempt to do anything with it. On top of that, the nice brick that is in the firebox, just above the reburn chamber keeps breaking right through the center. A nice little $40 brick. Two so far this winter. The first time my dealer claimed I threw wood in and broke it, didn't happen. The second time, two weeks later, it happened he had no explanation other than Harman knows its an issue, but they won't cover bricks under warranty. I surely wouldn't be rough with it knowing how much the bricks cost. In talking with another dealer he thought maybe the steel was expanding/contracting when heating/cooling down and with such a tight fit something had to give and it was the brick. So with that rant over, any opinions on whether I should cut ties with this Harman and look for something else? If so, what should I be looking in to. There is a Vermont Castings dealer about 2 miles from my house. There is another dealer close by that sell Lopi and Avalon. I will add that I do have HWBB heat, but I want to burn with wood, because its free for me. I'm not against a boiler either indoor or outdoor. I just want to be warm and be done with these headaches.
Hate my Harman, Suggestions?
- Thread starter bigbear
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I know you have a lot of other issues with this stove, but the wood consumption is the part that intrigues me. That is a mind-boggling amount of wood to be pushing through an EPA stove. I couldn't get my old stove to burn two cord a month if I stood there and stick fed it 24/7, and if I did, we'd have to have all the windows and doors open. My basement hits over 90º at times, even when the mercury dips close to 0ºF. Something doesn't seem right. Hate to ask, but is the basement insulated?
I think the explanation is:
Running the stove wide open is a sign something is wrong. One possibility is that the wood is not really dry. Or the stove is not being run correctly. Do you have a thermometer on the flue and stove? If so, what temps are you seeing? This stove is not going to burn like the Shrader. It's an entirely different animal. Keeping the air wide open is actually going to make the stove run cooler and the flue hotter. It's a waste of fuel and might be overheating it near the outlet. Once the fire is going strong, and the bypass is closed, reduce the air until the flames get lazy (not out) and let the secondary combustion kick in.
Harman has a series of videos for the operation of their stoves at: http://www.harmanstoves.com/customerCare/videos.asp
The core problem is the basement install. Is the basement insulated? How is the heat getting out of the basement? Trying to bake a basement in order to heat upstairs is really inefficient. The woodstove is an area heater. If, like the cabin you had the stove where you need the heat, upstairs, the TL300 would have you stripped down to your shorts and opening windows.
Running the stove wide open is a sign something is wrong. One possibility is that the wood is not really dry. Or the stove is not being run correctly. Do you have a thermometer on the flue and stove? If so, what temps are you seeing? This stove is not going to burn like the Shrader. It's an entirely different animal. Keeping the air wide open is actually going to make the stove run cooler and the flue hotter. It's a waste of fuel and might be overheating it near the outlet. Once the fire is going strong, and the bypass is closed, reduce the air until the flames get lazy (not out) and let the secondary combustion kick in.
Harman has a series of videos for the operation of their stoves at: http://www.harmanstoves.com/customerCare/videos.asp
The core problem is the basement install. Is the basement insulated? How is the heat getting out of the basement? Trying to bake a basement in order to heat upstairs is really inefficient. The woodstove is an area heater. If, like the cabin you had the stove where you need the heat, upstairs, the TL300 would have you stripped down to your shorts and opening windows.
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sixman
Feeling the Heat
We have the Lopi Eandeavor and just love it, however it sounds like the Liberty is more in line with what you need, it is the big brother to my Endeavor. I am only heating 1500 sq ft but the Endeavor keeps it a toasty 80 degrees even when it is in the teens outside and 30 mph wind.
Tell us about the wood you are using:
1. Has the wood been cut, split and stacked for 12 months or more?
2. Have you stored the wood off the ground possibly on pallets?
3. Do you cover just the tops of your cut, split and stacked wood piles?
4. What kind of wood are you using?
1. Has the wood been cut, split and stacked for 12 months or more?
2. Have you stored the wood off the ground possibly on pallets?
3. Do you cover just the tops of your cut, split and stacked wood piles?
4. What kind of wood are you using?
SmokingAndPoking
Member
First of all, if you broke the center Logo Brick twice, you're overfiring the stove. Unless you're beating on it with a poker, it sounds to me like it is being destroyed, thermally, by the maintained overtemperatures you are exposing it to.
Secondly, are you really trying to heat a 2300 sq. ft. house from an uninsulated basement?
Secondly, are you really trying to heat a 2300 sq. ft. house from an uninsulated basement?
MishMouse
Minister of Fire
You should not have to run this stove wide open once AB is engaged to heat your house.
If you are, you are damaging the stove and the AB Fire Dome Combustion Package.
How hot is your stove top prior to engaging the AB?
It should be around 500 to engage the AB.
Once engaging the AB, the heat output from the top of the stove should dramatically increase.
AKA: Before you should be able to hold your hand near the grate openings for at least 10-30 seconds without burning them.
After it is enganged if you go over 10 seconds you will get burnt.
If you have been constantly putting it in AB at higher temps and leaving the stove on high you could have damaged the stove.
Talking about your brick breaking almost sounds like you may have already damaged the AB chamber.
How do you store your wood?
When burning with this stove you must have seasond and dry wood.
This is my main problem this year, my softwood that I am burning this year was split and stacked over 18 months ago.
Last year around March, April, May timeframe when I was buring this wood I had no issues.
This year the wood put on weight over the very wet summer causing me issues with getting it to burn properly.
As for your top load issues: Have you tried the damper ramp adjustment located on page 20 of the manual?
"After the stove has been in operation for a while,
the damper gasket may compress and allow the damper
handle to move from the open to the closed position
without the added ramp tension needed to keep the
damper held in the closed position.
• After the stove has cooled off, remove the stove pipe
from the stove collar and close the damper.
point of the damper plate on the backside you will see
bolt still while using the other to loosen the nut.
proximately 1/4 turn and retighten the locknut.
• Now open and close the damper to check for proper
tension on the damper lever while moving into the
closed direction."
Looking at the assembly of the system it should not be that difficult to fix if there is an issue.
http://www.hearthnhome.com/downloads/serviceParts/TL300.PDF
If you are, you are damaging the stove and the AB Fire Dome Combustion Package.
How hot is your stove top prior to engaging the AB?
It should be around 500 to engage the AB.
Once engaging the AB, the heat output from the top of the stove should dramatically increase.
AKA: Before you should be able to hold your hand near the grate openings for at least 10-30 seconds without burning them.
After it is enganged if you go over 10 seconds you will get burnt.
If you have been constantly putting it in AB at higher temps and leaving the stove on high you could have damaged the stove.
Talking about your brick breaking almost sounds like you may have already damaged the AB chamber.
How do you store your wood?
When burning with this stove you must have seasond and dry wood.
This is my main problem this year, my softwood that I am burning this year was split and stacked over 18 months ago.
Last year around March, April, May timeframe when I was buring this wood I had no issues.
This year the wood put on weight over the very wet summer causing me issues with getting it to burn properly.
As for your top load issues: Have you tried the damper ramp adjustment located on page 20 of the manual?
"After the stove has been in operation for a while,
the damper gasket may compress and allow the damper
handle to move from the open to the closed position
without the added ramp tension needed to keep the
damper held in the closed position.
• After the stove has cooled off, remove the stove pipe
from the stove collar and close the damper.
point of the damper plate on the backside you will see
bolt still while using the other to loosen the nut.
proximately 1/4 turn and retighten the locknut.
• Now open and close the damper to check for proper
tension on the damper lever while moving into the
closed direction."
Looking at the assembly of the system it should not be that difficult to fix if there is an issue.
http://www.hearthnhome.com/downloads/serviceParts/TL300.PDF
By burning wide open, you are pushing heat up the flue. That is why you are plowing through the wood. For the stove to perform well, your wood should be a year cut/split/stacked, give or take. Once the afterburner is engaged, your best efficiency will occur when the air is set at 50% or less. The real heat is thrown from the re-burn chamber in the rear of the stove, not from the front. If the back of the stove is adjacent to an uninsulated wall, there goes your heat.
Hopefully I can answer all the questions asked. The basement is partially exposed (just the front) the sides and back are underground. I am not sure whats on the front wall, but there is OSB up so I would assume there may be an insulation board behind it. I haven't taken any of the OSB down to look. If I was to load the stove with a good bed of coals established, let the wood catch and shut off the air to 50% or less and let it go into AB it will not put out enough heat to warm my basement. I know the set up isn't the best trying to heat the entire basement so that I can heat the upstairs, but it is what it is. I'm not dealing with the mess upstairs. When its below freezing running the stove that way will only get my basement to 70ish degrees at the floor joists and in the low 60's upstairs. I can get about a 3 hour burn time with a full load that way until the temperature in the pipe (6" above stove top) drops below 300. At five hours I'm below 200. At 8 hours I have just enough coals to get a fire going again. The wood (hard maple, red oak, beech, birch and red maple to get it going) I'm burning has been down since the fall of 2008, been cut/split/stacked and under roof since March/April of last year.
If this is what is, then what is going to be is a broken stove with no warranty. Wrong stove for the application being run in direct violation with instructions = dead stove needing an expensive, out of pocket repair. This is like trying to beat on a horse to force it to pull the cart up over the mountain. You may end up with a dead horse and still some mountain to climb. I would repair, sell and replace with a simpler, bigger stove or wood add-on furnace. Or stop the heat loss in the basement asap.
MishMouse
Minister of Fire
bigbear said:
What is your temp on the stove top when you engage the AB?
The temp on the pipe once you engage AB should drop dramatically and is not a good way to determine how the stove is burning.
Mine gets up to 700+ on the double wall pipe when I am firing it up.
Then drops in the 200-300 range within 15mins when in AB.
Do you get the jet sound when engaging the AB?
If your damper is not closing properly as mentioned in the damper ramp adjustment all your heat is going up and out the flue.
Measuring the stove top temp in the center of the top loading door a few inches from the pipe should be your best indication as to how the stove is burning. Once you engage it at 500 it should stay within 50 degrees of that for at least 6 hours when burning a load of hard wood.
Actually burning seasoned hardwood it should maintain 500 degrees for closer to 8 hours if the AB is still active.
Which is part of the problem I am having, since my wood is not as seasoned as it should have been it kills the AB early and makes it harder to maintain.
Even if you fully insulate the basement you will be pushing any stove to heat your whole house IMO. Dump the stove/get a boiler, cheapest cure and far fewer headaches.
If you are trying to heat the whole house, you need a furnace or boiler. There is no stove that is going to do what you are asking for it to do comfortably on either floor.
Troutchaser
New Member
Doesn't sound to me like the stove is performing as it should. When in AB, your stove top should be 600* on very little air.
Either the wood has excessive moisture, or you've damaged the AB.
Have you checked for smoke when you think the AB is working?
Either the wood has excessive moisture, or you've damaged the AB.
Have you checked for smoke when you think the AB is working?
You really can't fault the stove, or Harman or the dealer. The stove would easily heat your 2300 square foot home if it was upstairs. It is a space heater with limits that can only be pushed so far, as BG said.
I agree that it is not the stoves fault, but I do not believe it would heat the basement from the upstairs, so cut that number in half. There may be some things he can do to improve the air flow from the basement to the upstairs, but I cannot believe he could heat the basement with the stove upstairs.branchburner said:
Problem is the stove has been pushed to hard already, and will most likely need to start over. OP has stated that he wants the mess downstairs, and needs to heat the upstairs. A furnace or boiler would work best for that application. If budget is not a concern, but a fireplace look is desired, another possibility would be a high efficiency zero clearance fireplace downstairs with the central air option to move the air upstairs.
summit
Minister of Fire
actually, Harman makes a helluva boiler.. you might go back to the dealer and see what he'll do for ya on a trade in. As far as the stove goes; 2300 sq ft is a push (especially at 0 +/-)from the basement for just about any stove. Lots of insulation, and easy flow of air thru the house is key. as to the old stove in You're little hunting camp with the old stove directly in the living space: you woulda had the same results if your TL300 was in it: you'd roast just like with the schrader stove. 2300 sq feet heated indirectly from downstairs, in a finished house (nice tight drywall around every turn, trim, siding) does not provide the same airflow pattern that camp did with the stove right in the same area as you. You either need to go bigger (but there aint too much bigger than a TL300) , so as not to run it so hard, or go with a central wood burning option, like a wood boiler.
Troutchaser said:
I'll wait until its cool in the morning and move my gauge off the pipe and onto the stove top and check the temps. I'm assuming the best way to tell that the stove in AB is there is no smoke, which there isn't. THe only time I have smoke coming out of the chimney is right after I load it for a few mintues, then nothing.
Is there anyway I can tell if I damaged the AB by overfiring the stove, or do I need to have the dealer out. My biggest gripe is the dealer came to my house and looked everything over and said the stove would heat the place with no problems. I work with 2 guys that have the same stove in 2 story houses, plus the basement, and both heat exclusively with the TL 300 in the basement and don't have any trouble heating the entire house.
Are you sure the stove is tight everywhere? No gasket leaks? Is the door staying clear or are there spots that just won't clean with a hot fire? (as would happen w/ a poorly sealing gasket)
Can't help you with any ideas on your stove, but I do have a couple of tricks I learned at my house as far as heating with a wood stove in an unfinished stone cellar. I leave the blower door on my forced air furnace open for return air flow and leave the upstairs door by the wood stove opened to the upstairs. I get much better air flow through the house with the furnace door opened (but still need to use a couple of fans to move the air around). Since we rarely use the furnace, it's not much problem to close it up when needed. Floors to the upstairs are uninsulated, and the kitchen floor directly over the stove is ceramic tile. I also stacked up block walls on either side of the stove about 8-10 inches from it and up just higher than the top of the stove. This helps keep it from just radiating all the heat right at the cellar walls. The 1st course of blocks is laid on their side to allow airflow under and up the walls. The block also acts as more mass for the stove...consider it a poor mans soap stone. My cellar's almost all underground. There's something to be said for heating all that mass down there as it moderates the swings from the wood and solar heat I use. It isn't as efficient as having the stove upstairs, but it is where it is due to the layout of the house and location of the chimney, and has worked pretty well for us for the last 29 years here.
WOW! When researching stoves last month I was leaning toward the TL300 or the Blaze King. I am so glad we went with the blaze king ultra, it is amazing. I thought it would just be supplemental heat for the house but it is heating all 2240 sq feet! I was fed up with $1000 per month oil bill. The heat has not come on since we installed the king, and I live in North Pole, Alaska! It is built so very solid. I thought the Harman had build issues. I did not like the quality of the andirons. I also did not like the lever for opening the top. The floor model we looked at was sticky and caught at the top. Today I left for work at about 7 am and did not get home until after 9 pm and the king was still going strong and the house was at 70. Nice, very nice. It is supposed to drop to -30 this weekend so that will be a good test. Sorry about your problems, the Harman looked nice, but just does not live up to it. Get a blaze king and you will not be disappointed, get the King Ultra though so you to can have long hot burns...
My house is 2240 sq ft, but it is also a 2 story house (1120 up and down). I installed vents above the stove and we are truly heating the whole house, the back bedrooms are cooler but still at least 67 degrees, and that is at the end of the hallway. We keep all the doors open. Gotta keep the air moving to heat the house...
summit
Minister of Fire
the OP has already admitted to knowing 2 other guys with similar sqft who heat their houses with the same stove... If they are having such success, then something about his setup is different. wood quality, house layout, or insulation are probably the factors here...
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