Positive Pressure Gasification Boiler indoors?

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afblue

afblue

Feeling the Heat
Sep 1, 2009
278
Buffalo, NY
I am throwing it out there to see what peoples opinions are about having a positive pressure burning chamber boiler indoors, like a EKO, PAXO, etc. I understand that most people have the option to put their gaser in an out building or garage, but I unfortuneatly do not have that option. The only place that I have is in my basement. I know the obvious answers are that there must be a CO detector. I have a central alarm system with multiple ones wired in.

What suggestions do people have, and experiences have you had with a Positive Pressure gasifier indoors. I see by design how a negative draft boiler by design is safer, since you are not totally relying on door seal.

Do the problems people have with the loading door leaking possibly be from having the the primary fan turned up to much, and creating to much positive pressure?
 
dpsfireman said:
Why not just get a negative pressure unit like the Biomass? Mine works great.
Click to expand...

That question boils down to about $2700+ dollars for a negative pressure unit vs an option I have on a Pressure unit like a PAXO.
So I guess I am limiting my question, not what is better, but if pressure units are safe enough to have indoors.
 
There are many, many posts in the archives about smoke from forced draft boilers.Not all are concerning actual leaks from door gaskets while firing (and therefore pressure).

A lot of smoke problems are created by people who can't leave the door closed when it's firing.

Either because they don't have storage and are trying to keep a constant fire going and so open the door before it's burned its load (kindlephobia is very common out there) or because they just can't control their curiousity.

That's been my observation anyway.
 
My boiler is in the basement, the only time I have a smoke problem is when I first start the boiler or open it before the wood is burned down to coals. I do have storage, and I generally start the fire and burn until burned out, my boiler does not idle. I can at times get a smoke smell form the door seal, when I first start the boiler but it goes away fast.
I do like negative draft boilers, they seem to solve so many problems.

Steve
 
When I researched these units last year I decided that it was worth spending the extra money to get the Biomass and didn't consider a positive pressure unit as an option. I have never regretted that decision.
 
afblue said:
dpsfireman said:
Why not just get a negative pressure unit like the Biomass? Mine works great.
Click to expand...

That question boils down to about $2700+ dollars for a negative pressure unit vs an option I have on a Pressure unit like a PAXO.
So I guess I am limiting my question, not what is better, but if pressure units are safe enough to have indoors.
Click to expand...


The biomass isn't much more than an EKO, but it will still leak smoke into the room if you try to reload mid burn. When I got mine it was around $200.00 more.
 
woodsmaster said:
afblue said:
dpsfireman said:
Why not just get a negative pressure unit like the Biomass? Mine works great.
Click to expand...

That question boils down to about $2700+ dollars for a negative pressure unit vs an option I have on a Pressure unit like a PAXO.
So I guess I am limiting my question, not what is better, but if pressure units are safe enough to have indoors.
Click to expand...


The biomass isn't much more than an EKO, but it will still leak smoke into the room if you try to reload mid burn. When I got mine it was around $200.00 more.
Click to expand...
The PAXO is a low hour demo unit, with some extras, no sales tax, or shipping, so in my particular situation its a difference of $2700 more for a BioMass. Personally if I was talking new to new BioMass seems to be a very good unit, and $200 would be well worth it, but in my situation we are talking $2700.
 
afblue said:
The PAXO is a low hour demo unit, with some extras, no sales tax, or shipping, so in my particular situation its a difference of $2700 more for a BioMass. Personally if I was talking new to new BioMass seems to be a very good unit, and $200 would be well worth it, but in my situation we are talking $2700.
Click to expand...

That's quite a savings, but if you invested an extra three or four thousand up front for an Effecta Lambda 35 kW you could go from about 85% efficiency to probably over 95% efficiency. So if you're spending $1000 per year for wood now you could easily slash that amount down to $900 and after thirty or forty years you'd be pretty pleased with yourself I betcha.

--ewd
 
I have an EKO40 and I do not have storage. In 4 years of use my unit produced a lot of smoke when the door was opened (for a number of reasons other than but including curiosity) but it need not have. By design the model I have has an exhaust opening that has an upper extremity barely higher than the top edge of the opening of the door. I would classify that as a design shortcoming. I built a "smoke flapper" (similar to one that I had on a wood furnace) at the door opening inside of the upper chamber that had a lower edge below the lowest point (about 2") of the exhaust of the by-pass damper at the back of the upper chamber. The flapper would swing inward when loading wood and then fall back into place once the wood passed the bottom lip of the flap. (wood had to be shorter at the top of the loading chamber to facilitate full movement of the flap). Unfortunately my flap had a design flaw in that I did not build the hinge strong enough and it failed in a couple of weeks after being whopped with wood I was attempting to load into the chamber. The similar device I attempted to copy is still on the wood furnace and I used that frunace for about 15 years. When the flap I built was in place and the bypass damper was open and the blower off there was virtually no smoke that escaped from the boiler when the upper chamber door was open. Forgetting to open the bypass damper was the source of a lot of smoke though. :smirk:

Even with the blower off and the bypass damper open if there is a good deal of gasification going on in the upper chamber and the upper door is opened there will be a rush of O2 going into the upper chamber that releases a rolling ball of energy even a well designed ventilator hood will have difficulty containing. There is just too much energy being released and too many avenues of escape. As well even with the boiler blower off air can and will enter the secondary combustion chamber by way of the secondary air ports in the nozzle and feed the fire from the bottom and act as a regular wood stove and opening the upper cahmber door is akin to throwing gasoline on a campfire. Having the flapper in the boiler reduces the air going into the upper chamber and forces the released energy up the chimney through the open bypass damper. (NOTE: incase of a power outage, by the way, comepletely closing the secondary air valves/screw in plates will help to avoid boiler overheating and will actually help extinguish the fire in the boiler as long as the bypass damper is kept closed and the upper chamber door is kept closed).
 
I ran a Wood Gun for ten years and I don't believe there is a boiler with a stronger induced draft, however it smoked when I opened the door. It also smoked during the burn cycle when the door gaskets eroded which was quite often. They have a smoke shield to reduce the amount of smoke that enters the room when loading. And this thing has a 3/4 horsepower fan motor with a 10" diameter fan.

I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest that although there could be a slight possibility that the pressure may be lower in an induced draft, I don't believe the difference between the two is that large. The force that is working un-noticed here is the draft. I can open the loading door during a hot fire and the unit will still be drawing and gassing with the fan off. I believe the incoming air, whether induced or forced is going to expand instantly creating some sort of pressure.

Shoot some holes in my theory.

When I was shopping for a boiler I liked the Biomass but I wanted a smaller unit and Biomass didn't go down to 25Kw.
 
I think the EKO and paxo are very out dated now. I would never put one of these units in a home. I almost regret putting it in my shop. The doors are a never ending problem leaking smoke into my building. The fly ash alone would make me crazy if it was in my home. The bio mass are a little better I dont own one but I hav not heard any bad things about them.

Just my .02

Rob
 
Do you have a chimney with a decent draw? If not you might want to pass on that EKO. Gasser smoke/smell is much more noxious than stove smell in my experience. I don't think safety is the issue here, rather do you want the foul smell in your house, Randy
 
ewdudley said:
afblue said:
The PAXO is a low hour demo unit, with some extras, no sales tax, or shipping, so in my particular situation its a difference of $2700 more for a BioMass. Personally if I was talking new to new BioMass seems to be a very good unit, and $200 would be well worth it, but in my situation we are talking $2700.
Click to expand...

That's quite a savings, but if you invested an extra three or four thousand up front for an Effecta Lambda 35 kW you could go from about 85% efficiency to probably over 95% efficiency. So if you're spending $1000 per year for wood now you could easily slash that amount down to $900 and after thirty or forty years you'd be pretty pleased with yourself I betcha.

--ewd
Click to expand...

I probably should account for my time an labor into this equation, but it wont have as good of an effect. My wood is free, minus the fuel to run the splitter, saws, and Biodiesel for the logging tractor, all totaling about $25-30 a year. so basing it just on efficiency the difference in payback would be about 1,000 years....
 
afblue said:
ewdudley said:
afblue said:
The PAXO is a low hour demo unit, with some extras, no sales tax, or shipping, so in my particular situation its a difference of $2700 more for a BioMass. Personally if I was talking new to new BioMass seems to be a very good unit, and $200 would be well worth it, but in my situation we are talking $2700.
Click to expand...

That's quite a savings, but if you invested an extra three or four thousand up front for an Effecta Lambda 35 kW you could go from about 85% efficiency to probably over 95% efficiency. So if you're spending $1000 per year for wood now you could easily slash that amount down to $900 and after thirty or forty years you'd be pretty pleased with yourself I betcha.

--ewd
Click to expand...

I probably should account for my time an labor into this equation, but it wont have as good of an effect. My wood is free, minus the fuel to run the splitter, saws, and Biodiesel for the logging tractor, all totaling about $25-30 a year. so basing it just on efficiency the difference in payback would be about 1,000 years....
Click to expand...

Yeah but the 95% number is probably very conservative, actually it's more likely the real number is closer to 107%, so let's call it 500 years. Is that really so long to wait when you family's comfort is at stake?

And efficiency isn't everything. It's a well known fact that it is much easier to start a fire when there is separate stepper motor control of both primary and secondary air intake, which all but eliminates the age-old problem of getting wood to burn without the benefit of lambda control and microprocessors.

Just think of the peace of mind and increased comfort you would enjoy just knowing your fire is being managed at optimum performance by inexpensive and perfectly reliable sensors, actuators, and micro-controllers.

--ewd
 
Singed Eyebrows said:
Do you have a chimney with a decent draw? If not you might want to pass on that EKO. Gasser smoke/smell is much more noxious than stove smell in my experience. I don't think safety is the issue here, rather do you want the foul smell in your house, Randy
Click to expand...

My concerns of this boiler and any boiler are more on the issues of safety. I can understand the issue of opening any positive pressure boiler while its in the middle of a burn, especially if it is let to idle, and build smoke in the upper chamber. For loading purposes I can see if there needs to be a draft inducer added to eliminate a small amount of puffing, when loading. Vigas boiler manuals specifically talk about them.
What my concerns a geared towards, is if am ever going to have issues with the boiler pushing smoke out the upper seal while the boiler is operating. I can see how the natural draft of the chimney comes into play. I do feel I may have that battle won. The flue is a 27ft 8"x8" clay flue, I havent tested it, but would assume this far exceeds the manufactures specifications. I am wondering if by design the settings that manufactures set for air controls is that the induction fans match the natural draft so you are not putting undue pressure on a door seal when it is not necessary.
 
afblue said:
Singed Eyebrows said:
Do you have a chimney with a decent draw? If not you might want to pass on that EKO. Gasser smoke/smell is much more noxious than stove smell in my experience. I don't think safety is the issue here, rather do you want the foul smell in your house, Randy
Click to expand...

My concerns of this boiler and any boiler are more on the issues of safety. I can understand the issue of opening any positive pressure boiler while its in the middle of a burn, especially if it is let to idle, and build smoke in the upper chamber. For loading purposes I can see if there needs to be a draft inducer added to eliminate a small amount of puffing, when loading. Vigas boiler manuals specifically talk about them.
What my concerns a geared towards, is if am ever going to have issues with the boiler pushing smoke out the upper seal while the boiler is operating. I can see how the natural draft of the chimney comes into play. I do feel I may have that battle won. The flue is a 27ft 8"x8" clay flue, I havent tested it, but would assume this far exceeds the manufactures specifications. I am wondering if by design the settings that manufactures set for air controls is that the induction fans match the natural draft so you are not putting undue pressure on a door seal when it is not necessary.
Click to expand...
The EKO is a quality boiler & if you are not concerned with smoke smell in your house this is a good choice. Smoke smell & CO poisoning are 2 different things. You can be nauseated from smoke smell & not have a real safety issue. Good luck, Randy
 
ive got an orlan eko 25 in a room adjacent to my kitchen (old boiler house now being used for its origional purpose) its flue is fed into the old coke boiler chimney, 18" square and approx 30' high. initially there were pretty bad problems with smoke being forced around the door seal regardless of excellent draft... a silicone dor seal stopped these issues immediatly and the rank smell stopped..

as for the draft, it was great when loading boiler, very little smoke escaped into the room but the boiler ran teriibly inefficiently, smoking out of stack all the time, regardless of fan speeds, openings, primary and secondary air mixes etc, eventually we opened up a hole in the bottom of the stack 6"x6" which reduced draft immensly ( i have another eko that runs in a shed, perfectly with 2meters of twinwall) the boiler started running how it should with little or no draft, but then smoked like mad when you opened the door, hence now we have a sliding mechanism to close off the chimney hole when loading!! all works pretty well with very little smoke entering the house.
 
I've got an EKO 40 in my basement. I've never regretted the decision. Its a great boiler and having it in the basement can't be beat, in my opinion
 
I have an econoburn and just as it has been noted, unless I'm down to just coals, smoke is guaranteed out the door. I'm in an out building so I don't sweat the odor. Problem is I can't always guarantee I'll be down to coals. I load the fire at my convenience not at the fires convenience. Multiple loaders at multiple times of day. Tough to time. I can't imagine it in my house without some sort of exhaust to take the smoke out. Just my opinion. Others may have it mastered.
I do know to avoid the flame roll out, I'll open the bottom door(if fan is shut off) until I hear the flames cooking in fire chamber.Then open fire door and close bottom door. That way no surprises. Great heat though and no oil purchased yet.
 
Singed Eyebrows said:
afblue said:
Singed Eyebrows said:
Do you have a chimney with a decent draw? If not you might want to pass on that EKO. Gasser smoke/smell is much more noxious than stove smell in my experience. I don't think safety is the issue here, rather do you want the foul smell in your house, Randy
Click to expand...

My concerns of this boiler and any boiler are more on the issues of safety. I can understand the issue of opening any positive pressure boiler while its in the middle of a burn, especially if it is let to idle, and build smoke in the upper chamber. For loading purposes I can see if there needs to be a draft inducer added to eliminate a small amount of puffing, when loading. Vigas boiler manuals specifically talk about them.
What my concerns a geared towards, is if am ever going to have issues with the boiler pushing smoke out the upper seal while the boiler is operating. I can see how the natural draft of the chimney comes into play. I do feel I may have that battle won. The flue is a 27ft 8"x8" clay flue, I havent tested it, but would assume this far exceeds the manufactures specifications. I am wondering if by design the settings that manufactures set for air controls is that the induction fans match the natural draft so you are not putting undue pressure on a door seal when it is not necessary.
Click to expand...
The EKO is a quality boiler & if you are not concerned with smoke smell in your house this is a good choice. Smoke smell & CO poisoning are 2 different things. You can be nauseated from smoke smell & not have a real safety issue. Good luck, Randy
Click to expand...

nofossil said:
I have an older EKO in my basement. I figured out the door seal problem and the curiosity problem, and have NO issue with odor or smoke. Even when it was making noticeable odor, our CO monitor never read higher than 0.
Click to expand...

With these answers and everyone elses words of encouragement, I am more confident that I am making the right decision. This particular boiler has the new updated silicon seal. With everyones experience I feel that I am going into this more educated, and will be able to diagnose any potential issues before they pop up. Thank you again.
 
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