Englander 30 smokes on high air ,Not on low.

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Seasoned Oak

Minister of Fire
Oct 17, 2008
7,215
Eastern Central PA
Has anyone with the Englander series stove noticed a difference in smoke output depending whether the stoves air is set high or low.
After about a week of burning with the new Englander 30 i noticed it smokes on high air settings ,but not on low air. That is to say once i get the stove up to temp 500-600 stove top and reburn in full swing if i open the air from about 1/2 to full open even with vigorous reburn action from the reburn tubes i get considerable smoke from the chimney top,cut the air down to low or below 1/3 and NO smoke. I can however open the air fully once the reburn action slows down due to the the fire advancing past the initial off gassing stage. Can it be Too much draft pulling some of the smoke out before the reburn has a chance to burn it?
 
trump said:
Has anyone with the Englander series stove noticed a difference in smoke output depending whether the stoves air is set high or low.
After about a week of burning with the new Englander 30 i noticed it smokes on high air settings ,but not on low air. That is to say once i get the stove up to temp 500-600 stove top and reburn in full swing if i open the air from about 1/2 to full open even with vigorous reburn action from the reburn tubes i get considerable smoke from the chimney top,cut the air down to low or below 1/3 and NO smoke. I can however open the air fully once the reburn action slows down due to the the fire advancing past the initial off gassing stage. Can it be Too much draft pulling some of the smoke out before the reburn has a chance to burn it?

Short answer.... YEP ! could be.....

Shawn
 
Often this is a symptom of excessive draft or excessively dry wood. Yes, wood can be too dry, giving off combustible gases faster than the secondary system can reburn it.
 
You might also check to make sure the two baffles at the top of the firebox are pushed tightly together.
 
I do that before i light a fire, they get knocked out of place from time to time,manual says keep them all the way to the back and evenly spaced from the sides. Doesnt make any difference with the smoke.
 
trump said:
I do that before oi light a fire, they get knocked out of place from time to time,manual says keep them all the way to the back and evenly spaced from the sides. Doesnt make any difference with the smoke.

With the air open, the combustion gases may be so hot that water vapor, and possibly incomplete combustion products, now are condensing out in the open air above the chimney cap rather than onto the inside wall of the chimney. In other words, you may have shifted the condensation zones further upwards.

Henk
 
PyMS said:
trump said:
I do that before oi light a fire, they get knocked out of place from time to time,manual says keep them all the way to the back and evenly spaced from the sides. Doesnt make any difference with the smoke.

With the air open, the combustion gases may be so hot that water vapor, and possibly incomplete combustion products, now are condensing out in the open air above the chimney cap rather than onto the inside wall of the chimney. In other words, you may have shifted the condensation zones further upwards.

Henk
After adding wood to a hot stove With the air setting is closed only secondary air is unrestricted and is not producing flame from the wood just from the reburn tubes, the fire burns clean ,but when i open the primary air past halfway and flame is originating from the wood i get black smoke from the chimney, not thick smoke but smoke none the less. To compensate i just closed the primary air when i load wood for about half hour to an hour until most of the off gassing is done then i open up the primary air.
 
trump said:
After adding wood to a hot stove With the air setting is closed only secondary air is unrestricted and is not producing flame from the wood just from the reburn tubes, the fire burns clean ,but when i open the primary air past halfway and flame is originating from the wood i get black smoke from the chimney, not thick smoke but smoke none the less. To compensate i just closed the primary air when i load wood for about half hour to an hour until most of the off gassing is done then i open up the primary air.

You must be loading on a ton of hot coals. I don't generally recommend loading and leaving the air shut down.

pen
 
trump said:
PyMS said:
trump said:
I do that before oi light a fire, they get knocked out of place from time to time,manual says keep them all the way to the back and evenly spaced from the sides. Doesnt make any difference with the smoke.

With the air open, the combustion gases may be so hot that water vapor, and possibly incomplete combustion products, now are condensing out in the open air above the chimney cap rather than onto the inside wall of the chimney. In other words, you may have shifted the condensation zones further upwards.

Henk
After adding wood to a hot stove With the air setting is closed only secondary air is unrestricted and is not producing flame from the wood just from the reburn tubes, the fire burns clean ,but when i open the primary air past halfway and flame is originating from the wood i get black smoke from the chimney, not thick smoke but smoke none the less. To compensate i just closed the primary air when i load wood for about half hour to an hour until most of the off gassing is done then i open up the primary air.

I'm afraid that with the secondary air closed you are still creating lots of incompletely burned condensables, but they're just condensing out in your flue. In other words: lots of CREOSOTE.

If your stove had a big catalytic afterburner the procedure you describe might perhaps work since catalysts need a lot less oxygen to keep doing their worl properly. Without a catalytic afterburner, however, you will need your secondary air to act as a thermal afterburner, and probably have little choice but to slow down on the wood supply rate, or at least use smaller splits.

Henk
 
pen said:
trump said:
After adding wood to a hot stove With the air setting is closed only secondary air is unrestricted and is not producing flame from the wood just from the reburn tubes, the fire burns clean ,but when i open the primary air past halfway and flame is originating from the wood i get black smoke from the chimney, not thick smoke but smoke none the less. To compensate i just closed the primary air when i load wood for about half hour to an hour until most of the off gassing is done then i open up the primary air.

You must be loading on a ton of hot coals. I don't generally recommend loading and leaving the air shut down.

pen

its the only way i can get a clean burn,if i load and open the air past halfway i get smoke. Im burning mostly softwood now ,so that may be a factor.
 
PyMS said:
trump said:
I do that before oi light a fire, they get knocked out of place from time to time,manual says keep them all the way to the back and evenly spaced from the sides. Doesnt make any difference with the smoke.

With the air open, the combustion gases may be so hot that water vapor, and possibly incomplete combustion products, now are condensing out in the open air above the chimney cap rather than onto the inside wall of the chimney. In other words, you may have shifted the condensation zones further upwards.



I'm afraid that with the secondary air closed you are still creating lots of incompletely burned condensables, but they're just condensing out in your flue. In other words: lots of CREOSOTE.

If your stove had a big catalytic afterburner the procedure you describe might perhaps work since catalysts need a lot less oxygen to keep doing their worl properly. Without a catalytic afterburner, however, you will need your secondary air to act as a thermal afterburner, and probably have little choice but to slow down on the wood supply rate, or at least use smaller splits.

Its the PRIMARY air that i can control ,not the secondary(reburn tube air) air ,the secondary air is fixed and only regulated by draft strength.
If i keep the PRIMARY air below 1/2 to closed when reloading i get a clean burn. Otherwise i get thin black smoke. Its possible that the softwood im burning
is off gassing faster than the stove can reburn it at high air volumes.
 
trump said:
PyMS said:
trump said:
I do that before oi light a fire, they get knocked out of place from time to time,manual says keep them all the way to the back and evenly spaced from the sides. Doesnt make any difference with the smoke.

With the air open, the combustion gases may be so hot that water vapor, and possibly incomplete combustion products, now are condensing out in the open air above the chimney cap rather than onto the inside wall of the chimney. In other words, you may have shifted the condensation zones further upwards.



I'm afraid that with the secondary air closed you are still creating lots of incompletely burned condensables, but they're just condensing out in your flue. In other words: lots of CREOSOTE.

If your stove had a big catalytic afterburner the procedure you describe might perhaps work since catalysts need a lot less oxygen to keep doing their worl properly. Without a catalytic afterburner, however, you will need your secondary air to act as a thermal afterburner, and probably have little choice but to slow down on the wood supply rate, or at least use smaller splits.

Its the PRIMARY air that i can control ,not the secondary(reburn tube air) air ,the secondary air is fixed and only regulated by draft strength.
If i keep the PRIMARY air below 1/2 to closed when reloading i get a clean burn. Otherwise i get thin black smoke. Its possible that the softwood im burning
is off gassing faster than the stove can reburn it at high air volumes.

Thanks for that correction (I should learn how to read slower and type faster ;) )

Your conclusion about the too rapid outgassing of the softwood splits makes good sense to me. I wish I could share your optimism, however, that with the primary air further closed you are indeed getting "a clean burn" (unless you can somehow verify that the outgassed but incompletely burned products are not simply condensing out in the flue).

Since my interest and experience are primarily in the area of combustion mechanisms (i.e. in helping to explain unusual phenomena), rather than in woodstove operating techniques, I will bow out of the discussion to let others with more practical knowledge and experience provide suggestions on how to try and improve things.

Henk
 
Henk
I think im getting a clean burn with a low primary air setting, keep in mind that the clean burn is a function of the secondary reburn tubes which are fully functional at ANY primary air setting as long as the stove is hot enough and the draft is good. The stove top temp is well into the optimal range (500-600Deg) for reburn. On the 30 you can plainly see the reburn in action so its not like your guessing on the reburn.
 
trump said:
Henk
I think im getting a clean burn with a low primary air setting, keep in mind that the clean burn is a function of the secondary reburn tubes which are fully functional at ANY primary air setting as long as the stove is hot enough and the draft is good. The stove top temp is well into the optimal range (500-600Deg) for reburn. On the 30 you can plainly see the reburn in action so its not like your guessing on the reburn.

Well, if you are right about the rapid release of relatively high flows of unburned gases from the softwood splits, as well as about the clean (i.e. nearly complete) burn, the reburn tubes must somehow be able to keep up with these strong combustible wood gas flows. Under that particular scenario the only reasonable explanation for the sudden decrease in reburn performance (as evidenced by dark smoke formation) upon opening the primary air further would seem to be some type of mechanical or hydrodynamic interference between the primary air flow and the reburn flows..... Any evidence for that? (e.g. by observing the secondary flame patterns while slowly opening the primary air). Do the secondaries gradually disappear or become unstable?

In the absence of such visual evidence, I would still suggest that opening the primary air further may simply shift the smoke condensation zone to well beyond the chimney cap. The evidence for that mechanism should be provided by relatively heavy creosote deposits.

Henk
 
Henk
One other clue is when i open th air fully the reburn also increases greatly and i can see flames curing around the baffle and going toward the flue,thats when it smokes.ON low air there is no yellow flame traveling past the baffle ,only the hot clean reburn flame coming from the reburn tubes.In short it seems on high primary air after a wood reload the amount of off gassing overwhelms the systems ability to processs all the smoke unless i slow it down and reduce the speed at which the air travels through the stove and the amount of off gassing. My harman downdraft stove uses a different reburn system and will reburn ALL the smoke no matter how fast the air is moving through the stove. Its a relatively minor thing with the Englander as it still produces a lot of heat even with the primary air all the way down ,that reburn flame is hotter than the flame originating from the wood itself. I was just curious if anyone else had a similar experience.
 
trump said:
Henk
One other clue is when i open th air fully the reburn also increases greatly and i can see flames curing around the baffle and going toward the flue,thats when it smokes.ON low air there is no yellow flame traveling past the baffle ,only the hot clean reburn flame coming from the reburn tubes.In short it seems on high primary air after a wood reload the amount of off gassing overwhelms the systems ability to processs all the smoke unless i slow it down and reduce the speed at which the air travels through the stove and the amount of off gassing. My harman downdraft stove uses a different reburn system and will reburn ALL the smoke no matter how fast the air is moving through the stove. Its a relatively minor thing with the Englander as it still produces a lot of heat even with the primary air all the way down ,that reburn flame is hotter than the flame originating from the wood itself. I was just curious if anyone else had a similar experience.

Wow, that's a very clear description; I think you have the entire process figured out quite well! Have you tried to burn a bit of very dry, dense wood (e.g. lumber or compressed wood bricks) to confirm your own hypothesis about the possible role of the softwood?

Also, you now have me convinced about your stove burning clean. All in all, it doesn't sound like you have a big problem, indeed.

Nonetheless, your primary air "low" setting appears not to be representative of the real air flows. Any chance your primary air handle could have been bent during transport or the damper valve partly dislocated? Alternatively, your draft might be unusually strong.

Henk
 
I've noticed the same thing with my Morsoe. Loaded it up with pine, running hot with the air wide open, I got lots of dark black smoke. Smelled like a coal fired locomotive. Also had a hot pot of water on the stove. I closed the primary air all the way, the pot began to boil rapidly almost instantly and the smoke disappeared. When I first saw the smoke l thought someone closed the air down and I was going to have to open up it back up.
 
tw40x81 said:
I've noticed the same thing with my Morsoe. Loaded it up with pine, running hot with the air wide open, I got lots of dark black smoke. Smelled like a coal fired locomotive. Also had a hot pot of water on the stove. I closed the primary air all the way, the pot began to boil rapidly almost instantly and the smoke disappeared. When I first saw the smoke l thought someone closed the air down and I was going to have to open up it back up.

Im burning small pieces of pine,not the usual fare for a wood stove,so im not complaining about the stove just wondering if anyone had a similar experience, apparently you have with pine as well. Large thick pieces of hardwood will behave quite differently im sure.
 
With 2-4 5" diameter pieces of the really pitch filled pine the same thing happens in my Osburn. That wood in a camp fire burns similar black smoke and tall flames. The pitch is basically a natural petroleum product so you get the bright yellow/orange flame with black smoke. Shut the primary air down or slow it down and all that sooty smoke has time to burn in the secondary.

My neighbor that has a smoke dragon burns the same stuff and her stove will send a cloud of black smoke 1000' out in the field. It looks like she is burning a stove full of tires until she cuts the air down and the thick white smoke starts. I was amazed when I first lit up my stove at how little black smoke comes off of it, I was really impressed when I cut the air down and the smoke disappeared completely.
 
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