HELP! Weird over fire condition with gas mini explosions last night scarry!!!

Wyld Bill · Mar 11, 2011

Last night around 12:30 I suddenly woke from a strange dream. I noticed my wife was restless & talking in her sleep so I woke her up. She started spasing out saying
"Something wrong, somthings wrong, I smell smoke, do you smell that!" I tried to calm her down but she was relentless. I couldn't really smell anything but told her I'd go check the fire.
What I found scared me big time. The stove was very hot, full of lazy blue flames, & smoke then all at once it ignited & went WOOB !!!

The top opened for a second & it blew out a bunch of smoke & some sparks. Then the cycle started all over again & it happened again. The air was fully closed & the bypass damper was closed. So I opened the bypass damper but then the stove quickly got VERY hot as did the flue piping. The fire inside the stove was a raging infero now. I closed the bypass damper but opened the air adjustment. This helped some but the stove was still blazing out of control getting hotter by the second. I put some new wood in but that made little to no difference. When I closed back the air it still stayed very hot & did the "backdraft" thing. Now I was a little worried. How do I stop this thing,..it's like a run away locomotive!! So I went outside & grabbed some good heavy wood that had been getting rained on for two days & loaded that in on top. Finally it started to calm down. I was able to slowly close back the sir with out it exploding.

So what the heck is going on with this thing??

The only thing I changed is I have been burning the last of my wood which is a lot of popular that I got for free. Do you think that could be the problem?

Also can anyone explain how the primary & secondary air works in the newer Vermont Castings Defients?

begreen · Mar 11, 2011

It sounds like you were getting backpuffing. Maybe because the stove was shut down a bit too early? With a full charge of wood, you need to get the wood burning well first. Try running the stove a bit longer with the before engaging the bypass. Or maybe it is just atmospherics? What is the flue system on the stove like?

PS: Can you add your stove to your signature?

peakbagger · Mar 11, 2011

Bascially you put to much wood in the stove before you went to bed. Defiants are relatively air tight and when you try to control them by starving the air, they are going to backpuff. When you put the wet wood on it, you were pulling a lot of heat out of the stove by evaporating water. The newer EPA stoves have air ports that cant be closed so they dont backpuff but can overheat if you put too much wood in it. Basically you need to control the stove by controlling the amount of wood in it rather than trying to close down the air supply. Of course this is a PITA as it means that the stove wont run overnight. Defiants put out a lot of heat and if it was a mild night you just werent pulling enough heat. The solution is control the amount of fuel, overheat the house before you go to bed or have a smaller stove for spring and fall.

VCBurner · Mar 11, 2011

Hey Bill,
I'm no expert in the non cat Defiant, but backpuffing is more common during the shoulder season. Not that it should happen at all. But it is reported a lot more frequently this time of the year. Most of it is caused by wood that is not dry enough or an inadequate chimney set up. This doesn't mean that the stack is not adequate for any stove. Just may not be a good match for the Defiant. Are you running the stove with an 8" flue? If not, this may be the reason why the draft isn't strong enough to pull the smoke out. I thought you were having some problems with smoke going into the house when you opened the top loading door. This is another sign of poor draft. Are you exhausting it into a 7" flue? If you are, this is not an ideal condition to use the Defiant. You will continue to have problems if the flue is not the right size. Otherwise, you may have closed the bypass damper too quickly. All the wood has to be 2/3 enveloped in flames or charred in order to ensure that the secondary combustion will take place when you damper down. If you have moist wood, it''l take longer to dry the wood before you can close the damper. What did your stovetop thermometer say when you shut the damper? Did you hear the roar of the secondary burn kick in? You may just have choked it down too soon.

Wyld Bill · Mar 11, 2011

BeGreen said:
It sounds like you were getting backpuffing. Maybe because the stove was shut down a bit too early? With a full charge of wood, you need to get the wood burning well first. Try running the stove a bit longer with the before engaging the bypass. Or maybe it is just atmospherics? What is the flue system on the stove like?

PS: Can you add your stove to your signature?

Yeah I may have been too hasty to shut it down full of wood. I added my stove info. In that thing you posted at the end which damper do they want left open? The bypass or adjustable air?

grommal · Mar 11, 2011

VCBurner said:
Hey Bill,
I'm no expert in the non cat Defiant, but backpuffing is more common during the shoulder season. Not that it should happen at all. But it is reported a lot more frequently this time of the year. Most of it is caused by wood that is not dry enough or an inadequate chimney set up. This doesn't mean that the stack is not adequate for any stove. Just may not be a good match for the Defiant. Are you running the stove with an 8" flue? If not, this may be the reason why the draft isn't strong enough to pull the smoke out. I thought you were having some problems with smoke going into the house when you opened the top loading door. This is another sign of poor draft. Are you exhausting it into a 7" flue? If you are, this is not an ideal condition to use the Defiant. You will continue to have problems if the flue is not the right size. Otherwise, you may have closed the bypass damper too quickly. All the wood has to be 2/3 enveloped in flames or charred in order to ensure that the secondary combustion will take place when you damper down. If you have moist wood, it''l take longer to dry the wood before you can close the damper. What did your stovetop thermometer say when you shut the damper? Did you hear the roar of the secondary burn kick in? You may just have choked it down too soon.

This is definitely true. We suffered for 23 years with backpuffing from our VC. The draft was fine, since the instant you opened the damper, the chimney pulled like gangbusters with no delay at all. There was just something wrong with the combination of the VC and our chimney. We tried everything to stop it. Loading smaller amounts of wood vs. larger, loading when the coal bed was very small vs. large and very hot, walking the inlet air down very gradually vs. quickly, very dry wood to semi-seasoned wood, complete rebuild of the refractory chamber. Nothing made a difference. Yes, it was somewhat more susceptible when the outside temps were higher, but we got backpuffing when it was single digits outside.

Swapped the stove a couple of years ago, changed nothing whatsoever about the chimney, and the new stove could not be happier, even when the outside temps climb into the 50s. As far as I can tell, we just have a no-VC chimney.

Wyld Bill · Mar 11, 2011

peakbagger said:
Bascially you put to much wood in the stove before you went to bed. Defiants are relatively air tight and when you try to control them by starving the air, they are going to backpuff. When you put the wet wood on it, you were pulling a lot of heat out of the stove by evaporating water. The newer EPA stoves have air ports that cant be closed so they dont backpuff but can overheat if you put too much wood in it. Basically you need to control the stove by controlling the amount of wood in it rather than trying to close down the air supply. Of course this is a PITA as it means that the stove wont run overnight. Defiants put out a lot of heat and if it was a mild night you just werent pulling enough heat. The solution is control the amount of fuel, overheat the house before you go to bed or have a smaller stove for spring and fall.

Great reply!! I love this forum!
Yeah I wanted to have someone explain to me,..why does it seem like the stove is ALWAYS open to the atmosphere out back??? What's the point of an airtight stove?

So I can close down the air BUT only after the stove has been running continuously for a while & is burned down to mostly coals?

Wyld Bill · Mar 11, 2011

VCBurner said:
Hey Bill,
I'm no expert in the non cat Defiant, but backpuffing is more common during the shoulder season. Not that it should happen at all. But it is reported a lot more frequently this time of the year. Most of it is caused by wood that is not dry enough or an inadequate chimney set up. This doesn't mean that the stack is not adequate for any stove. Just may not be a good match for the Defiant. Are you running the stove with an 8" flue? If not, this may be the reason why the draft isn't strong enough to pull the smoke out. I thought you were having some problems with smoke going into the house when you opened the top loading door. This is another sign of poor draft. Are you exhausting it into a 7" flue? If you are, this is not an ideal condition to use the Defiant. You will continue to have problems if the flue is not the right size. Otherwise, you may have closed the bypass damper too quickly. All the wood has to be 2/3 enveloped in flames or charred in order to ensure that the secondary combustion will take place when you damper down. If you have moist wood, it''l take longer to dry the wood before you can close the damper. What did your stovetop thermometer say when you shut the damper? Did you hear the roar of the secondary burn kick in? You may just have choked it down too soon.

Haha now I am really feeling as we Christians say "convicted" Everything you said is about what happened. I have been switching it over earlier & lately & it rumbles for a few seconds then quiets down. I was like "Huh,..ah whatever I'm sure it doesn't have to have that wind gust sound to be working"
So should it be making that "roaring" or "wind gusts" sound the whole time when the damper is shut?

Wyld Bill · Mar 11, 2011

grommal said:
VCBurner said:

Hey Bill,
I'm no expert in the non cat Defiant, but backpuffing is more common during the shoulder season. Not that it should happen at all. But it is reported a lot more frequently this time of the year. Most of it is caused by wood that is not dry enough or an inadequate chimney set up. This doesn't mean that the stack is not adequate for any stove. Just may not be a good match for the Defiant. Are you running the stove with an 8" flue? If not, this may be the reason why the draft isn't strong enough to pull the smoke out. I thought you were having some problems with smoke going into the house when you opened the top loading door. This is another sign of poor draft. Are you exhausting it into a 7" flue? If you are, this is not an ideal condition to use the Defiant. You will continue to have problems if the flue is not the right size. Otherwise, you may have closed the bypass damper too quickly. All the wood has to be 2/3 enveloped in flames or charred in order to ensure that the secondary combustion will take place when you damper down. If you have moist wood, it''l take longer to dry the wood before you can close the damper. What did your stovetop thermometer say when you shut the damper? Did you hear the roar of the secondary burn kick in? You may just have choked it down too soon.

Click to expand...

This is definitely true. We suffered for 23 years with backpuffing from our VC. The draft was fine, since the instant you opened the damper, the chimney pulled like gangbusters with no delay at all. There was just something wrong with the combination of the VC and our chimney. We tried everything to stop it. Loading smaller amounts of wood vs. larger, loading when the coal bed was very small vs. large and very hot, walking the inlet air down very gradually vs. quickly, very dry wood to semi-seasoned wood, complete rebuild of the refractory chamber. Nothing made a difference. Yes, it was somewhat more susceptible when the outside temps were higher, but we got backpuffing when it was single digits outside.

Swapped the stove a couple of years ago, changed nothing whatsoever about the chimney, and the new stove could not be happier, even when the outside temps climb into the 50s. As far as I can tell, we just have a no-VC chimney.

Huh very interesting. Well if I keep having this happen I'll just sell the stove & take the moeny I made to buy a nice used stove. My Encore was an old piece of junk but it heated the house really good & I never had weid stuff like this happen,..EVER.
Funny thing is,..it looks like you had the same stove I used to have & it worked great for me (1980's Defiant Encore),...weird.

VCBurner · Mar 11, 2011

Wyld Bill said:
So should it be making that "roaring" or "wind gusts" sound the whole time when the damper is shut?

That I don't know. At least you know the sound, though. I'm sure some other everburn owners will chyme in with an answer. It would seem to me that you want to hear the sound before you walk away from a loaded stove that has been dampered down. Meaning, if you shut the bypass damper, you want to be sure that the roar kicks in before you just leave it. This is a sign that volatile gasses are being consumed in the secondary chamber and won't backpuff if you leave it unattended. If I were you, I'd use the search function and read other posts on this stove specifically. If there is an answer I'm sure it has been reported here somewhere, as this stove has been around for quite a while.

Here's a start:
https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/69281/
https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/65642/
https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/49022/

Well you get the point, here's a link to what you get if you search the words Defiant 1610:
https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/search_results/cd59796cfb1d714018481ee77aa3dd08/
There are all sorts of threads with information about your stove and many threads including your own, with detailed information. Good luck!

Oh, before I forget. There's a good bit of info here on Tradergordo's thread about your type of secondary combustion, the everburn:
https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/14536/
https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/4188/

begreen · Mar 12, 2011

Wyld Bill said:
BeGreen said:

It sounds like you were getting backpuffing. Maybe because the stove was shut down a bit too early? With a full charge of wood, you need to get the wood burning well first. Try running the stove a bit longer with the before engaging the bypass. Or maybe it is just atmospherics? What is the flue system on the stove like?

PS: Can you add your stove to your signature?

Click to expand...

Yeah I may have been too hasty to shut it down full of wood. I added my stove info. In that thing you posted at the end which damper do they want left open? The bypass or adjustable air?

The bypass.

Wyld Bill · Mar 12, 2011

VCBurner said:
Wyld Bill said:

So should it be making that "roaring" or "wind gusts" sound the whole time when the damper is shut?

Click to expand...

That I don't know. At least you know the sound, though. I'm sure some other everburn owners will chyme in with an answer. It would seem to me that you want to hear the sound before you walk away from a loaded stove that has been dampered down. Meaning, if you shut the bypass damper, you want to be sure that the roar kicks in before you just leave it. This is a sign that volatile gasses are being consumed in the secondary chamber and won't backpuff if you leave it unattended. If I were you, I'd use the search function and read other posts on this stove specifically. If there is an answer I'm sure it has been reported here somewhere, as this stove has been around for quite a while.

Here's a start:
https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/69281/
https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/65642/
https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/49022/

Well you get the point, here's a link to what you get if you search the words Defiant 1610:
https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/search_results/cd59796cfb1d714018481ee77aa3dd08/
There are all sorts of threads with information about your stove and many threads including your own, with detailed information. Good luck!

Oh, before I forget. There's a good bit of info here on Tradergordo's thread about your type of secondary combustion, the everburn:
https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/14536/
https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/4188/

WOW! Thanks!

Leadfoot · Jan 10, 2012

I had the same thing happen to me last night, the odd thing is I was watching videos about this earlier. I got a little carried away when i loaded my NC30 and the house became much too warm pretty quick. I closed the air more and more until it was only getting air from the zipper. I was still getting a secondary burn with no flames touching the wood. After awhile the secondaries would go out and relight. All of a sudden POOF! The second time it puffed was more violent then I ran over and cracked the air open until I had a steady flame. I have sheet metal screws in all my pipe joints inside the house and it's probably a good thing I did. I have 2 45's inside so I'm pretty sure I would have had an open flue to my living room if I hadn't.

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HELP! Weird over fire condition with gas mini explosions last night scarry!!!

Wyld Bill

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