Disabled Vet with TBI needs help choosing

Estatesavr · Mar 25, 2011

Hello all,

I apologize for posting an obvious 'what system do I buy' BUT please hear me out.

I have TBI (traumatic brain injury) which makes it difficult for me to comprehend some of this information, but more importantly I am very naive` and gullible. I was 'taken' by an alternative energy installer and company and am paying an additional $12,000 to fix my original investment of $51,000 - of only 1 1/2 years ago.

I have reached the point of so many conflicting marketing claims, hype, etc. that I can not tell chicken soup from chicken s**t. I am afraid/concerned I will make another bad decision that will negatively affect my family. I already feel a burden and not much help around the farm as it is.

I have an added urgency - we are in final stages of an emergency adoption so will near double my household of children from four to seven. Now you know I am brain-damaged :>)

I believe propane, gasoline, food, etc will only continue to soar in price - thus I want to get this project going asap.

I am fortunate in I invested well, and while not wealthy by any means, can afford to invest in this infrastructure now so I don't pay through the nose to the LP company. I can not, however, afford to make the same level of mistake as I did with that alternative energy crook!

I will gladly pay someone to design and help us sort boilers, radiators, dealers, etc and arrive at a solution that will enable me to keep my growing family warm.

in advance, many thanks

Jake

flyingcow · Mar 25, 2011

To do your research, you shouldn't have to pay anyone. This is a great site with great people. You'll get more advice than one needs. The nice thing about this format is, learn as much as you want, at whatever speed you want.

What size(btu's) is the furnace heating your house now? Just a beginning to figure things out. There will be a lot better questions to come. But it's a start.

Estatesavr · Mar 25, 2011

thank you flyingcrow

we heat now, with a 25k btu LP propane vent free fireplace with a box fan that blows heat through the house - this works for all 0+ temps ... when we go below 0 we fire up the shcrader woodstove in the basement - between those two we can maintain about 65 to 69 inside

the house is 2300 sq ft, but with the upcoming adoption we are converting the attached 700 sq ft garage to living space and using the carport between as a site for this boiler (and will enclose the carport) for a total of 3350 sq ft

jake

shortline · Mar 25, 2011

Jake I recently bought a biomass burning boiler from Fred Seton of Troy Montana. I chose the large Seton boiler because it had a large door. I wanted a boiler that didn't require highly processed and carefully prepared feedstock. I wanted something that could burn biomass out of my waste stream -- "free". Compared to the European boilers the Seton boiler is a very simple design, but when put against a sizable heat load, fed large round seasoned conifer (softwood) trees, and set up with proper draft it can obtain similar efficiencies. Where Fred is from your neck of the woods, I believe it would be worth your time to check him out at http://www.rohor.com/.

P.s. Welcome to the forum, a friendly place to learn a lot. Especially if you have time to do searches and read the many past conversations.

NYEDGE · Mar 25, 2011

Jake,

First of all.... Thank you for your service.
Most of us can't comprehend the sacrifices that our military personnel go through while serving our country.

You will definitely get the guidance you need on this site to get the best bang for your buck.
How well is the house currently insulated? This is important because regardless of the heating source, wasted heat = wasted money.
Just keep feeding the information, and soon the pros on this site will chime in with some words of wisdom.

Fsappo · Mar 25, 2011

Jake, Sorry to hear about your injury..and yes, they way you scoop up kids the effects are obvious. As mentioned above, you stumbled upon a very unique group of folks. You will get more help and advice than you could ever need without having to pay for it, I'm sure.

I wanted to thank you for your service and commend you on your efforts in keeping your family safe and warm.

Tennman · Mar 25, 2011

Thanks for your service to us Jake. Fill us in on what you spent 51k on and why an additional 12k. Is the 51k the purchase price on the 2300 sf home then then 12k on a new heating system? You will get lots of free professional help from many first class, patient guys here. Right now there is an excellent thread started by Chickenthistle on the topic of wood system economics.

Estatesavr · Mar 25, 2011

First of allâ€¦. Thank you for your service.
Most of us canâ€™t comprehend the sacrifices that our military personnel go through while serving our country.

"my family has served going back to French & Indian Wars - my Father was one of first killed in Vietnam, my Grandfather one of 'Flying Tigers', etc - service was a way of life for us"

You will definitely get the guidance you need on this site to get the best bang for your buck.

"Thank you very much, I am grateful for all of your insights"

How well is the house currently insulated?

"very, we added another layer last fall of r38 to attic, replaced all windows - we still have minor spots to touch up, bit overall well insulated"

This is important because regardless of the heating source, wasted heat = wasted money.
Just keep feeding the information, and soon the pros on this site will chime in with some words of wisdom.

"Thank you all, and God Speed"

Estatesavr · Mar 25, 2011

Franks said:
Jake, Sorry to hear about your injury..and yes, they way you scoop up kids the effects are obvious. As mentioned above, you stumbled upon a very unique group of folks. You will get more help and advice than you could ever need without having to pay for it, I'm sure.

I wanted to thank you for your service and commend you on your efforts in keeping your family safe and warm.

when thanked for my service I choke up, please understand how important that is, especially in these times, for us to hear that

Jake

Estatesavr · Mar 25, 2011

Tennman said:
Thanks for your service to us Jake. Fill us in on what you spent 51k on and why an additional 12k. Is the 51k the purchase price on the 2300 sf home then then 12k on a new heating system? You will get lots of free professional help from many first class, patient guys here. Right now there is an excellent thread started by Chickenthistle on the topic of wood system economics.

the 51k was spent for: solar panels (8x), inverters (2x), large battery bank - part of that 51k was for hydro (14.9k) which we never received and were basically 'robbed' of

the additional 12k is to a fellow vet who does alternative energy - he reviewed the Alt-E system and said it was the worst install he had ever seem, a fire hazard and not to code and i sending in photos to Home Power Magazine for 'worst install' - my fellow Vet friends really know their stuff - please check out their website

http://www.pineridgeproducts.com/PRPSite/Welcome.html

God Bless all on this site

Jake

benjamin · Mar 25, 2011

I have a cobbled together wood boiler and solar panel combination that works well for me, but I wouldn't recommend it to my worst enemy. My first thought was that you can't go wrong with a Garn, but maybe I should back up a bit.

If you're surviving with a 25,000 btu heater right now then you have a pretty modest heat loss so you may not need the complexity of a boiler system.

Are you looking to just heat the house with wood, or would you like to heat hot water also? Is the alternative energy system solar hot water or Photovoltaic electricity? If you already have solar hot water (and maybe a little solar heat?) then a boiler could integrate well as the backup. On the other hand, if you already have solar then a wood stove might make sense because it will just be the backup. If your alternative energy system is PV then it doesn't have any impact on what we'd recommend for heating or hot water.

If you want to research more about solar heat and hot water, and a little about how they can be integrated with wood heat, builditsolar.com is a great resource. Gary is a member on here, and he's somewhere in Montana, so the information is relevant for your climate. If that site gets too confusing for you, just tell us what you want to do, what you have and we'll point you in the right direction at least.

edit: I see you have an electrical system, Please tell me more about the house. Do you have an unfinished basement to run pipes? Also what is your wood supply? do you like to cut your ownm or how much do you have to pay for wood? Also, are you off grid? that can make a big difference.

Estatesavr · Mar 25, 2011

benjamin said:
I have a cobbled together wood boiler and solar panel combination that works well for me, but I wouldn't recommend it to my worst enemy. My first thought was that you can't go wrong with a Garn, but maybe I should back up a bit.

If you're surviving with a 25,000 btu heater right now then you have a pretty modest heat loss so you may not need the complexity of a boiler system.

Are you looking to just heat the house with wood, or would you like to heat hot water also? Is the alternative energy system solar hot water or Photovoltaic electricity? If you already have solar hot water (and maybe a little solar heat?) then a boiler could integrate well as the backup. On the other hand, if you already have solar then a wood stove might make sense because it will just be the backup. If your alternative energy system is PV then it doesn't have any impact on what we'd recommend for heating or hot water.

If you want to research more about solar heat and hot water, and a little about how they can be integrated with wood heat, builditsolar.com is a great resource. Gary is a member on here, and he's somewhere in Montana, so the information is relevant for your climate. If that site gets too confusing for you, just tell us what you want to do, what you have and we'll point you in the right direction at least.

when we get the three little children (ages 6,8&10

the teenagers will need to move to the 'garage' which will be converted to living quarters - thus, the 25k LP heater won't be able to heat that as well - with that addition we're adding 1/3rd more space

plus we heat the cabin with it's own lp heater - so in truth, the project lp use would be about 2500 lbs for winter 2011-12 - at $2.50/lb now (and rising fast) I can see how investing in this wood boiler idea can pay for itself in about 3 years or so with an LP bill of $6500 and rising

we also use LP for cooking, clothes drying, our refrigerator and hot water, so I do want to add hot water to the list of things we can task the boiler with

the solar is electric (we found out only 1/2 of the panels was even wired to work $*^%#&$# installer)

and this little slice of Montana is

the warmest in all of MT - about a climate zone 5B as we are warmed & 'wetted' by Pacific flow that comes up the Idaho panhandle - the Kootenai Forest is a rain forest, thus availability of wood

I feel blessed to have found this forum and such good people

Jake

ps - if any of you are avid fishermen and wanted some of the best fishing in the lower 48 we'd gladly offer a 'fish & boiler install' vacation using our guest cabin as blue ribbon stream 200 feet from our door - Rainbows, Bull Trout, Kokanee, Brookies, Paddlefish, Pike all here in abundance :>)

Hunderliggur · Mar 25, 2011

Thanks for your service Jake. I wortk wih Wounded Warriors during the winter for skiing as an adaptive ski instructor. Never met a better bunch of people (guys and gals).

About your install. How are you considering using the hot water from a boiler? A box fan won't cut it. Do you have access to below the floor of the current living space? If so, staple up radiant may be the way to go. For the garage remodel, you probably have some height to work with. You could lay rigid insulation on top of the current slab, then add in floor radiant with a topping slab. When you finish the garage, insulate and seal well the wall and ceilings, you won't regret it.

In the meantime, start cutting, stacking and drying wood now. You will need it whatever boiler you choose, and the dryer the better. I cut mine 18" since I sell some to friends and that is what they like and it also works well in my boiler. I could go to 20" but why bother?

Mark

Estatesavr · Mar 25, 2011

Hunderliggur said:
Thanks for your service Jake. I wortk wih Wounded Warriors during the winter for skiing as an adaptive ski instructor. Never met a better bunch of people (guys and gals).

About your install. How are you considering using the hot water from a boiler? A box fan won't cut it. Do you have access to below the floor of the current living space? If so, staple up radiant may be the way to go. For the garage remodel, you probably have some height to work with. You could lay rigid insulation on top of the current slab, then add in floor radiant with a topping slab. When you finish the garage, insulate and seal well the wall and ceilings, you won't regret it.

In the meantime, start cutting, stacking and drying wood now. You will need it whatever boiler you choose, and the dryer the better. I cut mine 18" since I sell some to friends and that is what they like and it also works well in my boiler. I could go to 20" but why bother?

Mark

thanks for working with 'wounded warriors' - i especially like the work they/you do for our spouses - and in truth, they are the ones most affected by those of us with tbi, ptsd - the 'invisible wounds' ... and i'll not likely hit the slopes again as too much titanium could come loose if i had a serous fall :>)

we have a son with down syndrome, however, that ski instructors like yourself love to help - he is quite the athlete :>)

answers to your ???s:
yes, hot water from boiler
we do have access to main floor and will do staple up/al fins for pex radiant
upstairs we are planning on radiators

the garage is already 80% insulated and we'll invest in best we can afford for the balance - though we'll likely insulate the floor for ease of install we'll likely do radiators there too

as re cutting firewood - we are in midst of gradual spring thaw, so as soon as the muck & thaw allows we'll be out with chainsaws and the horse trailer (though i can't do much as my left arm has too much nerve damage to weld a chainsaw for long - i can use my stihl electric to buck up in lengths though as it is light in weight)

do you use any form of solar drying sheds for drying? i am trying to figure something like that out?

also - any advice on wood moisture meters would be appreciated

gratefully

jake

Estatesavr · Mar 25, 2011

benjamin said:
I have a cobbled together wood boiler and solar panel combination that works well for me, but I wouldn't recommend it to my worst enemy. My first thought was that you can't go wrong with a Garn, but maybe I should back up a bit.

If you're surviving with a 25,000 btu heater right now then you have a pretty modest heat loss so you may not need the complexity of a boiler system.

Are you looking to just heat the house with wood, or would you like to heat hot water also? Is the alternative energy system solar hot water or Photovoltaic electricity? If you already have solar hot water (and maybe a little solar heat?) then a boiler could integrate well as the backup. On the other hand, if you already have solar then a wood stove might make sense because it will just be the backup. If your alternative energy system is PV then it doesn't have any impact on what we'd recommend for heating or hot water.

If you want to research more about solar heat and hot water, and a little about how they can be integrated with wood heat, builditsolar.com is a great resource. Gary is a member on here, and he's somewhere in Montana, so the information is relevant for your climate. If that site gets too confusing for you, just tell us what you want to do, what you have and we'll point you in the right direction at least.

edit: I see you have an electrical system, Please tell me more about the house. Do you have an unfinished basement to run pipes? Also what is your wood supply? do you like to cut your ownm or how much do you have to pay for wood? Also, are you off grid? that can make a big difference.

house: stick built 2x6 framed in 1980, we have added a lot of insulation, new thermal windows & will replace wood doors in next week or so
basement: yes, unfinished and complete access to 1st floor from below
wood: virtually unlimited supply of Larch, Red Fir & some Beech from Kootenai National Forest
off grid: yes -
cost of wood delivered: $150 split & stacked for Larch if we wish to buy

we'll likely seek out, moisture check (need advice on moisture meter) and buy seasoned for this coming winter, but cut & stack as much as we can for future winters ourselves this summer

many thanks

Jake

Como · Mar 25, 2011

Do you have the resources, children I guess, to process the wood for you?

At $150 a cord I am just wondering if pellets might not be a better bet.

By the sound of it you have no existing system to tie into, you will probably find that a hot water system would cost more for distribution than for the boiler.

benjamin · Mar 26, 2011

For firewood use (as opposed to fine woodworking) any cheap moisture meter will work, just remember to split a piece and take the reading from the middle of the fresh split face, and if the wood is frozen it won't read correctly. Or you can just cut it and go by time. If you cut this spring, get it split and stacked under cover but in a breezy area, then you'll probably be fine this fall.

Doing all of this off grid adds another level of complexity to the boiler decision and to the distribution. Gasifier boilers use a significant amount of electricity if you're on batteries. The hydro would make a huge difference in what you could swing electricity wise, consistent output all winter.

You'll probably be looking at making your runs shorter and/or bigger diameter pex for the radiant, to reduce the pumping energy use, and flat panel radiators for the other rooms. There are some professionals on here who have posted lots of info on flat panel radiators that you could search out. The boiler electricity use is another factor to consider, maybe this is a good place for a low tech boiler without a draft fan. Do you have a chimney that you want to use, or will you be adding a chimney? This boiler stuff gets complicated fast, but moving hot water is much less energy than trying to move the heat with forced air.

If I were off grid, I'd seriously consider tracking down some salvage cast iron radiators for the whole system. In the midwest it's not too hard to find a whole house full of radiators to salvage for roughly the price of scrap iron ($1,000 total), especially in the bigger older cities. I have no idea what is available to you, but you could certainly check out craigslist in the bigger older towns near you, maybe post a want add in the materials or tools sections. The advantage of cast iron radiators is that it's easier to make a gravity feed system work, plus the comfort and charm, if you like that sort of charm. The disadvantage of an old fashioned gravity feed system is you would be tied to keeping the fire going, as opposed to firing a gasifier with storage once or twice a day and heating from the storage tank when the fire is out, and getting hot water all year if you wanted to fire it up occasionally.

Hopefully I haven't made this too much more complicated than it has to be. Keep asking questions and filling out the picture of what you want to do.

Estatesavr · Mar 26, 2011

benjamin said:
For firewood use (as opposed to fine woodworking) any cheap moisture meter will work, just remember to split a piece and take the reading from the middle of the fresh split face, and if the wood is frozen it won't read correctly. Or you can just cut it and go by time. If you cut this spring, get it split and stacked under cover but in a breezy area, then you'll probably be fine this fall.

Doing all of this off grid adds another level of complexity to the boiler decision and to the distribution. Gasifier boilers use a significant amount of electricity if you're on batteries. The hydro would make a huge difference in what you could swing electricity wise, consistent output all winter.

You'll probably be looking at making your runs shorter and/or bigger diameter pex for the radiant, to reduce the pumping energy use, and flat panel radiators for the other rooms. There are some professionals on here who have posted lots of info on flat panel radiators that you could search out. The boiler electricity use is another factor to consider, maybe this is a good place for a low tech boiler without a draft fan. Do you have a chimney that you want to use, or will you be adding a chimney? This boiler stuff gets complicated fast, but moving hot water is much less energy than trying to move the heat with forced air.

If I were off grid, I'd seriously consider tracking down some salvage cast iron radiators for the whole system. In the midwest it's not too hard to find a whole house full of radiators to salvage for roughly the price of scrap iron ($1,000 total), especially in the bigger older cities. I have no idea what is available to you, but you could certainly check out craigslist in the bigger older towns near you, maybe post a want add in the materials or tools sections. The advantage of cast iron radiators is that it's easier to make a gravity feed system work, plus the comfort and charm, if you like that sort of charm. The disadvantage of an old fashioned gravity feed system is you would be tied to keeping the fire going, as opposed to firing a gasifier with storage once or twice a day and heating from the storage tank when the fire is out, and getting hot water all year if you wanted to fire it up occasionally.

Hopefully I haven't made this too much more complicated than it has to be. Keep asking questions and filling out the picture of what you want to do.

you had me at hello .... :>)

seriously, my addled brain made it to split wood and moisture meter and after that .... i decided i need to really hire someone :>)

many many thanks - i wish i could make better sense of it

jake

Fsappo · Mar 26, 2011

How about you find the person that stiffed you for the Hydro system and post their contact info here? Just for....fun?

willworkforwood · Mar 26, 2011

Franks said:
How about you find the person that stiffed you for the Hydro system and post their contact info here? Just for....fun?

+1
And, maybe someone on Hearth with a radio or TV connection might be able to give that individual some "visibility" on how they conduct their business. One more thank you, Jake for your service to our country. Given your adequate financial position, it's a very good decision to hire someone. However, you will need to somehow verify that they're qualified to design and install a wood boiler system. There are many good HVAC pros who don't have experience with wood boilers (simply because it's not a widespread technology). If they claim they have the know-how, it would be good to get 2-3 confirmations from prior customer installs. This would hopefully avoid you going through another nightmare. Best of luck to you!

benjamin · Mar 26, 2011

Sorry, I have a way of making a toilet replacement into the most complicated decision of your life.

There are a lot of members here who could offer more and better advice, maybe there's somebody who could act as a representative to help you figure out what kind of system is best for your needs.

I was trying to explain two different ways of using a wood boiler. One way is to get a gasification boiler, storage, controls, pumps etc. and fire the boiler to heat the storage when it cools down.

The other option is to keep a fire going (24/7 in cold weather) and add more wood when it gets cold. This is the way it was done before electricity and pumps were available.

If nothing else, get in touch with some contractors and post their proposals up here so we can tear them apart. Somebody on here will know exactly what issues you'll have with just about any system.

Estatesavr · Mar 27, 2011

bupalos said:
Someone take this guy up on the fishing offer trade before I get in BIG trouble with the wife and kids. I really wish I was qualified.

+1 to some one person who can kind of distill the boiler room and keep this a one on one. A bunch of voices is very confusing.

To the original poster... a lot of us probably don't say thank you enough not because we don't feel it but because we feel foolishly inadequate with some cheap words in the face of something that cost you so much and is so deeply honorable. That and the kids too? And understanding your wife's challenge in this. You're just trying to make me feel bad about myself aren't you.

Seriously, thanks for what you did and what you do. Thanks for staying in the fight.

staying in the fight gives me a chuckle .... about all i stay in is bed :>)

seriously, all thoughts and help are appreciated ... many thanks guys

jake

ps - but the fishing is damned fine :>)

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