Wood delivery: some problems with it

snowleopard · Mar 29, 2011

Had a thread in here a week or two in which I asked about optimal length for wood. Some of you warned me that sellers were often off by a few inches, so based on that recommendation, I called the seller back and changed the order from 20" to asked 18" lengths (he hadn't started cutting yet).

He made the delivery yesterday. Some of it is just what I ordered--clean white birch, of really nice quality. Some of it is even 18" long. It was supposed to be 3 cords of birch, cut to length, but the lengths run from less than a foot to over two feet. He said he cut nothing less than 4" in diameter, but some of it is smaller than that, and I think I got shorted on the cords. Adding injury to insult, I'm pretty sure that some of that stuff in there is poplar. Will take a better look at it by daylight, but that's what it looks like to me.

I bought cut to length because I wanted this coming winter to be easier, woodwise. Had planned a logging load, but decided to go with cut to length because the price was competitive. This is not feeling easier.

The seller had to drive quite a ways to make the delivery, so I paid him extra for gas. The wood is green, which I knew going into it, and that was why I got the price I did. But I'm not happy about the lengths of wood, and the poplar--if that's what it is--turns it into a deal breaker.

He's a young guy, and doesn't heat with wood himself. I don't think he was out to con me or do an inferior job, but just made his errors out of not knowing. I asked him if he measured the wood as he cut, and he said he measured a couple of pieces, and that he had a friend cutting with him who was just cutting to any length. When I cut firewood in the past, I alwasy measured each piece--just a quick eyeball off the chain length, but enough to get me in the ballpark. So to me this is just not right.

Thinking about stacking the stuff that's what he sold it to be--anything between 16 and 20 inches that is birch, 4" or better (most of it is a lot bigger than that), measuring to see what I have, and asking him to put this right by coming and pick up the rest, or bring more wood to compensate. Does this seem reasonable, or am I being overly fussy? The irregular lengths make it hard so see how much wood I have, too.

The long stuff would have to be re-cut, and I end up with a bunch of irregular pieces. I want to put up a lot of wood, so was hoping for uniformity in stacking.

Looking forward to your ideas on this. I may be being unreasonable here, and if I am, I want to know. If I'm not, I'd appreciate your ideas on how to proceed.

Thanks.

Exmasonite · Mar 29, 2011

well, i think you need to call him back and say you're not satisfied and have some major concerns:

1) Species of wood- if he said all birch, ask why you got something else

2) Length- small pieces, not so bad. they'll still fit in stove. Bigger pieces are a real PITA.

3) Amount- gonna be hard to judge but do you have an idea just how short of 3 cords you are?

Basically, i think you need to talk to the guy and see if he has any desire to make it right. The options i see are this:

1) Say/insist he takes the wood back and refunds the money. Not sure how easy it'll be to go this route

2) He comes out and cuts the long pieces to length +/- brings more birch to bring it right

3) Brings over more birch (maybe bring the total to 3.5 cords or something for the trouble of the long pieces)

4) Sadly, he may have NO desire to make this right. At which point, i'd ask where you found out about him. I'd consider a craigslist ad warning about him or at least a word-of-mouth campaign amongst friends/Hearth.com members.

Good luck and let us know what happens.

snowleopard · Mar 29, 2011

Exmasonite said:
2) Length- small pieces, not so bad. they'll still fit in stove. Bigger pieces are a real PITA.

I was thinking just the opposite--that the big pieces could at least be cut down, but the little pieces are too short to stack.

I had a pretty tough winter, wood-wise--digging in piles that PO had left behind, sorting out what was still useful (sometimes splitting out what was still useful) and dragging it over, or up, to the house w/a sled. I was *so* looking forward to having this part of life smoothed out--just kinda happy thinking about it. Now--not so good. To know just how much I've got, I'll have to stack it.

Thanks for your input. I've seen some cutters here say "I sell by the truckload, don't have time to sell measured cords," so I wasn't sure if I"d missed the point of something. Time to go earn a few bucks to pay for all this firewood--but will check in on this later.

Thanks, guys.

Jags · Mar 29, 2011

First thing is to give the guy a chance to redeem himself. Simply make the statement that what you got, was not what you agreed upon. If he questions that, then give him the details of species, length, amount, etc. Some people make mistakes because they don't know.

If he doesn't own up to an appropriate remedy, then I would express my displeasure in a manor that might alter his stance on the disagreement.

Backwoods Savage · Mar 29, 2011

All the wood stretcher's that used to be around are too rusty to use and they aren't made any more. Therefore, those short pieces really do cut down on the total amount of wood you bought. In addition, you bought, so why should you have to be cutting it again?

I doubt you get anywhere with the fellow but it is worth a try, especially because you gave him extra for gas. Sounds like buying wood up there is better done by the truckload. Then you can figure just how much wood is worth there. Also, you need to get lots of wood on hand now for next year!

gyrfalcon · Mar 29, 2011

snowleopard said:
but the lengths run from less than a foot to over two feet. He said he cut nothing less than 4" in diameter, but some of it is smaller than that, and I think I got shorted on the cords. Adding injury to insult, I'm pretty sure that some of that stuff in there is poplar.

Ugh, ugh, ugh. Sympathies. Do spend some time measuring, but a large quantity of 1 to 2 feet when it's supposed to be 18 inches is absolutely not acceptable in my book. Some proportion of unders are inevitable because trees don't get bucked to nice even lengths divisible by 18 inches, but a substantial number of overs is just inexcusable.

FYI, I put the smalls on the tops of my stacks, and if there's more than I can put there, I just throw 'em in a loose pile. Since N/S loading seems to work so much better, I'd get all my wood in shorts if it weren't so impossible to stack, so I'm happy to have some smalls to use that way on the coldest days.

My suggestion for dealing with the guy is to tell him you'd like to do business with him regularly, maybe even buy some more before fall, but not if this is the kind of stuff he brings you. Explain that you asked for X length because that's what you actually need, and that he's brought you instead a bunch of wood you can't use or will have to hire somebody else at your expense to shorten, etc. I wouldn't threaten him, but be very firm, lay on the guilt as heavy as possible for all the unexpected extra work you're going to have to do/money you're going to have to spend, and hold out the possibility of regular business if he can make this right and show you he can be trusted to do what he says he's going to do.

I hate this!

The only time I've had a big problem with this is the one time I got a good deal on some firewood from a local orchard that had cleared out a bunch of woods to make room for more fruit trees. I shoulda known, but these guys had no clue what they were doing. The pieces were sizes all over the map, and many of them such gigantic knot-riddled chunks I could barely lift them, never mind split them by hand. Don't really know what they imagined I was going to do with them. Most of it was beech, which was why I went for the deal, but they filled in with about half a cord of what I've taken to calling generically "sucky wood"-- some elm in giant pieces impossible to split, some box elder, which is OK but not great, and a lot of stuff of unknown species that's the appoximate weight of styrofoam and sorta burns but gives off next to no heat whatsoever.

But that was a one-time thing for them-- and definitely for me!

Cate68 · Mar 29, 2011

Situations like this make me leery of the first time I have to buy wood. Sorry to hear you have to go through this. I think a good rule to follow is when you buy from a new supplier, buy in a smaller quantity the first time so when/if this happens and the guy won't make it right, at least you'll have less of the bad wood you don't want. Then move on to a better supplier. Please keep us posted on what happens.

CTYank · Mar 30, 2011

The part I'm having trouble following is that this is all about WHITE BIRCH. As firewood. White birch would be at the bottom of any list of firewood species I'd make.

You don't mention anything about splitting this birch; if this is not done early-on, the wood will not dry. Instead, it will rot. Probably not what you seek. At least poplar will dry, so in that respect it's an upgrade.

Since we don't know where you are, and thus the wood species available to you, this whole picture is totally fuzzy.

Do not close any transaction where the agreed-to conditions are not met.

gyrfalcon · Mar 30, 2011

CTYank said:
The part I'm having trouble following is that this is all about WHITE BIRCH. As firewood. White birch would be at the bottom of any list of firewood species I'd make.

You don't mention anything about splitting this birch; if this is not done early-on, the wood will not dry. Instead, it will rot. Probably not what you seek. At least poplar will dry, so in that respect it's an upgrade.

Since we don't know where you are, and thus the wood species available to you, this whole picture is totally fuzzy.

Do not close any transaction where the agreed-to conditions are not met.

Snowleopard is somewhere in interior Alaska, I believe.

DonNH · Mar 30, 2011

CTYank said:
The part I'm having trouble following is that this is all about WHITE BIRCH. As firewood. White birch would be at the bottom of any list of firewood species I'd make.

Same here - I put white birch & poplar in pretty much the same category. Here in NH, we have a good assortment of nice hardwood. What I burn is basically stuff I need to cut for some other reason. Since I have to handle it, I figure I might as well stack it & burn it. Wouldn't be too excited about paying for either white birch or poplar, but it definitely depends on what's available there.

Don

snowleopard · Mar 30, 2011

Hi, and thanks for the responses.

Gryfalcon is correct about my location, and the species available are pretty much birch, spruce, larch, and two kinds of poplar: aspen and balsalm poplar (not really cottonwood, but we call it that).

Birch is as good as it gets here--I think it's the hightest btu of any wood available here at 23k btu's, and aspen/cottonwood run about 15-18K. Spruce is a little higher, but I'm a little leery of that because of the tendency towards creosote deposits. (This may be a seasoning issue, but I've seen it be a problem in other applications.)

One thing I'll say in the favor of this birch is that it's the driest birch I've ever seen--he dropped it before the sap started rising. Tried chopping a little of it last night, and was startled--it was like slicing butter. No worries--I intend to get on that asap, as I plan on burning some of that next year (wood seasons fast here). That's part of what drove this sale, as I want to beat the rising of the sap and get things seasoning asap. Like Dennis said, it's time to be putting up wood. My goal is to have at least nine cords of birch on hand by fall, and 2-3 cords of standing dead poplar.

Excellent suggestion to buy in small quantities--wish I had. He has such a long run to make to get over here that I took a 3--cord load. I honestly believe (or maybe just want to believe) that he's a young man trying to build up a business, and learning as he goes.

You folks in CT and NH gave me a smile--I had someone label all the woods we have available: birch: garbage, aspen: garbage, spruce: garbage. Short of going to the hardware store and buying oak in two-inch strips by the linear foot, we just have to make do with what we've got. And what we've got works better than you might think. It would be nice, guys, but oak, maple, and beech just aren't going to happen here in my lifetime.

Another lesson I learned in this: don't buy firewood from someone who doesn't heat with firewood.

I think what I'll do is split and stack the good stuff, and measure that, and call that part of the transaction complete. The rest I can put in a stack and say, "This I can't keep, but you can make up the shortfall with good wood," because I'd rathher have that than my money back.

I told him about the Manga or Mango or whatever it's called that you can use to measure wood with for cutting to length, and he said that sounded like it would be a good tool to have. I asked him if he could put the length problem right in the next load, and he said he would, apologized for it, and I bet he talks to his friend about his cutting, too.

Weekend's coming, can't do much about it until then. Thanks for the support--I know it will work out. Paying newbie dues, in part.

Intheswamp · Mar 30, 2011

You've got a good attitude snowleopard...here's hoping things work out great for you !!!

!

Ed

firefighterjake · Mar 30, 2011

snowleopard said:
Hi, and thanks for the responses.

Gryfalcon is correct about my location, and the species available are pretty much birch, spruce, larch, and two kinds of poplar: aspen and balsalm poplar (not really cottonwood, but we call it that).

Birch is as good as it gets here--I think it's the hightest btu of any wood available here at 23k btu's, and aspen/cottonwood run about 15-18K. Spruce is a little higher, but I'm a little leery of that because of the tendency towards creosote deposits. (This may be a seasoning issue, but I've seen it be a problem in other applications.) I suspect you'll find that spruce isn't really all that bad . . . as long as you season it long enough . . . like any other wood the key is to run the stove at the proper temp and season the wood.

One thing I'll say in the favor of this birch is that it's the driest birch I've ever seen--he dropped it before the sap started rising. Tried chopping a little of it last night, and was startled--it was like slicing butter. White birch is wicked soft . . . even when fresh cut in middle of the summer . . . very easy on the saw. No worries--I intend to get on that asap, as I plan on burning some of that next year (wood seasons fast here). That's part of what drove this sale, as I want to beat the rising of the sap and get things seasoning asap. Like Dennis said, it's time to be putting up wood. My goal is to have at least nine cords of birch on hand by fall, and 2-3 cords of standing dead poplar.

Excellent suggestion to buy in small quantities--wish I had. He has such a long run to make to get over here that I took a 3--cord load. I honestly believe (or maybe just want to believe) that he's a young man trying to build up a business, and learning as he goes. I suspect you're right . . . just doesn't know better . . . but I might still call him up and mention a few of your concerns . . . and be sure to let him know that you're hoping to use him again in the future . . . but unfortunately this load you have X amount that you cannot stack due to the short length, X amount that are too long and you need to spend time cutting and X amount that are not white birch. I would at least give him a chance to make things right . . . and earn the future business and good reports which is useful for a guy starting out.

You folks in CT and NH gave me a smile--I had someone label all the woods we have available: birch: garbage, aspen: garbage, spruce: garbage. Short of going to the hardware store and buying oak in two-inch strips by the linear foot, we just have to make do with what we've got. And what we've got works better than you might think. It would be nice, guys, but oak, maple, and beech just aren't going to happen here in my lifetime.

Another lesson I learned in this: don't buy firewood from someone who doesn't heat with firewood.

I think what I'll do is split and stack the good stuff, and measure that, and call that part of the transaction complete. The rest I can put in a stack and say, "This I can't keep, but you can make up the shortfall with good wood," because I'd rathher have that than my money back.

I told him about the Manga or Mango or whatever it's called that you can use to measure wood with for cutting to length, and he said that sounded like it would be a good tool to have. I asked him if he could put the length problem right in the next load, and he said he would, apologized for it, and I bet he talks to his friend about his cutting, too. I believe manga is some type of Japanese comic and mango is a tropical fruit. Mingo marker I think is what you are looking for . . . me . . . I just eye ball the length using my 18 inch bar as a guide . . . if he sticks with the whole wood business he'll probably get better at figuring out lengths.

Weekend's coming, can't do much about it until then. Thanks for the support--I know it will work out. Paying newbie dues, in part.

Jags · Mar 30, 2011

Also keep in mind that the birch that far north grows very slow and dense compared to the birch in the states. It really is not the same stuff. Heck - a 16" birch tree might be 60 years old that far oop nort.

snowleopard · Mar 30, 2011

firefighterjake said:
I suspect you'll find that spruce isn't really all that bad . . . as long as you season it long enough . . . like any other wood the key is to run the stove at the proper temp and season the wood.
I've seen sap ooze out of a beam that was cut and installed 10 years prior. Okay, I admit that surprised me. A lot. Maybe I'm being overly protective of my set-up. If one of my spruce trees drops in a storm, my convictions may be put to a test.

White birch is wicked soft . . . even when fresh cut in middle of the summer . . . very easy on the saw.

I've split birch in the past that took some whacking to break apart, but that had been cut awhile. This was like slicing, not splitting. Works for me. The flip side of that is that instead of following the growth pattern of the wood, it's really easy to shear it off to the side. I am not used to seeing that at all.

I suspect you're right . . . just doesn't know better . . . but I might still call him up and mention a few of your concerns . . . and be sure to let him know that you're hoping to use him again in the future . . . but unfortunately this load you have X amount that you cannot stack due to the short length, X amount that are too long and you need to spend time cutting and X amount that are not white birch. I would at least give him a chance to make things right . . . and earn the future business and good reports which is useful for a guy starting out.

I'd initially agreed to buy three loads--nine cords. He knew I wasn't happy about the lengths, and I told him I'd split and stack it, and set aside what I couldn't use as is. He's got a permit to clear some land on a military base, so he's just going to be dropping wood this week--trying to beat the sap, too. Once it's down, he'll start cutting to length and running loads. THat's the point where we're going to talk again.

I believe manga is some type of Japanese comic and mango is a tropical fruit. Mingo marker I think is what you are looking for . . . me . . . I just eye ball the length using my 18 inch bar as a guide . . . if he sticks with the whole wood business he'll probably get better at figuring out lengths.

So I've set this kid up to walk into the stove store and ask for fresh fruit. Or Japanese comics. They're very polite there. It should work. That saw trick is what I've done in the past--just hold the saw up by a log and bump it with the tip for each cut. I'd guess that if that's what you do all day long, you get really good at eyeballing it. He just didn't get how important that was. We'll revisit that discussion if I get those other loads from him.

Jags said:
Also keep in mind that the birch that far north grows very slow and dense compared to the birch in the states. It really is not the same stuff. Heck - a 16" birch tree might be 60 years old that far oop nort.

This is an interesting twist. Birch is such gorgeous wood it seems a pity to burn it, very dense, fine grained. Some folks here make furniture, cabinetry with it. It burns hot and long, and I'm looking forward to a good winter's burning with it.

Thanks, Ed, for the well-wishes and kindly thoughts. Here's hoping the same!

Jags · Mar 30, 2011

snowleopard said:
This is an interesting twist. Birch is such gorgeous wood it seems a pity to burn it, very dense, fine grained. Some folks here make furniture, cabinetry with it. It burns hot and long, and I'm looking forward to a good winter's burning with it.

I have a white birch yard tree and if ever comes down or is taken down, I won't even bother to chop it up. It will get a chain wrapped around it and hauled directly to the burn hole. The white birch from N Illinois isn't worth the fuel and energy to cut it up in my opinion. The stuff is fluffy soft and burns like punky pine.

gyrfalcon · Mar 30, 2011

Jags said:
snowleopard said:

This is an interesting twist. Birch is such gorgeous wood it seems a pity to burn it, very dense, fine grained. Some folks here make furniture, cabinetry with it. It burns hot and long, and I'm looking forward to a good winter's burning with it.

Click to expand...

I have a white birch yard tree and if ever comes down or is taken down, I won't even bother to chop it up. It will get a chain wrapped around it and hauled directly to the burn hole. The white birch from N Illinois isn't worth the fuel and energy to cut it up in my opinion. The stuff is fluffy soft and burns like punky pine.

That's odd. White birch isn't something we burn a lot of here because we don't have a lot of it and our forests are chock full of rock maple and beech and other better hardwoods, but I get a bit of it from time to time and it's perfectly good stuff in the stove, sort of in the same category as red maple or ash.

But the trees do seem to have an ability to start to rot while they're still living. Hard to believe the species is so different between VT and northern Illinois. Perhaps your bad experience has been with rotted ones? The stuff I've had hasn't been the least bit punky or fluffy, just a nice clean light hardwood.

snowleopard · Mar 30, 2011

Gee--good stoves, good wood, mild climates . . . what do you all *do* with all your spare time?

Holtz hausens?

Jags · Mar 30, 2011

snowleopard said:
mild climates . . .

Who you talk'in 'bout Willis? :mad:

This ain't no interior Alaska stuff, but we measure snow by the feet and it ain't cold till it gets below zero (and frequently does). We do get "real" winters here.

WHOOPS - just realized that you were probably talkin' about Gyr.

gyrfalcon · Mar 30, 2011

Jags said:
snowleopard said:

mild climates . . .

Click to expand...

Who you talk'in 'bout Willis?

This ain't no interior Alaska stuff, but we measure snow by the feet and it ain't cold till it gets below zero (and frequently does). We do get "real" winters here.

WHOOPS - just realized that you were probably talkin' about Gyr.

Hmmmm? Yeah, real mild climate up here in Vermont, so mild we just got a "winter storm warning" for 8 or 10 inches of snow on Friday.

But let's face it, we all live in "mild climates" compared to Snowleopard.

Jags · Mar 30, 2011

gyrfalcon said:
But let's face it, we all live in "mild climates" compared to Snowleopard.

Yeah, I guess its all relative. But I have never heard N Illinois being referred to as a mild climate. Its his fault that he lives there. :lol:

snowleopard · Mar 30, 2011

ooooh, zero! . . .

that does sound cold . . .

:coolsmile:

smokinj · Mar 30, 2011

;-)

snowleopard said:
Had a thread in here a week or two in which I asked about optimal length for wood. Some of you warned me that sellers were often off by a few inches, so based on that recommendation, I called the seller back and changed the order from 20" to asked 18" lengths (he hadn't started cutting yet).

He made the delivery yesterday. Some of it is just what I ordered--clean white birch, of really nice quality. Some of it is even 18" long. It was supposed to be 3 cords of birch, cut to length, but the lengths run from less than a foot to over two feet. He said he cut nothing less than 4" in diameter, but some of it is smaller than that, and I think I got shorted on the cords. Adding injury to insult, I'm pretty sure that some of that stuff in there is poplar. Will take a better look at it by daylight, but that's what it looks like to me.

I bought cut to length because I wanted this coming winter to be easier, woodwise. Had planned a logging load, but decided to go with cut to length because the price was competitive. This is not feeling easier.

The seller had to drive quite a ways to make the delivery, so I paid him extra for gas. The wood is green, which I knew going into it, and that was why I got the price I did. But I'm not happy about the lengths of wood, and the poplar--if that's what it is--turns it into a deal breaker.

He's a young guy, and doesn't heat with wood himself. I don't think he was out to con me or do an inferior job, but just made his errors out of not knowing. I asked him if he measured the wood as he cut, and he said he measured a couple of pieces, and that he had a friend cutting with him who was just cutting to any length. When I cut firewood in the past, I alwasy measured each piece--just a quick eyeball off the chain length, but enough to get me in the ballpark. So to me this is just not right.

Thinking about stacking the stuff that's what he sold it to be--anything between 16 and 20 inches that is birch, 4" or better (most of it is a lot bigger than that), measuring to see what I have, and asking him to put this right by coming and pick up the rest, or bring more wood to compensate. Does this seem reasonable, or am I being overly fussy? The irregular lengths make it hard so see how much wood I have, too.

The long stuff would have to be re-cut, and I end up with a bunch of irregular pieces. I want to put up a lot of wood, so was hoping for uniformity in stacking.

Looking forward to your ideas on this. I may be being unreasonable here, and if I am, I want to know. If I'm not, I'd appreciate your ideas on how to proceed.

Thanks.

Only way you can make anything perfect is do it yourself.....jmho Its easier to live with the mistakes! lol :coolgrin:

Jags · Mar 30, 2011

snowleopard said:
ooooh, zero! . . .

that does sound cold . . .

:coolsmile:

So just where is it that you reside??

Backwoods Savage · Mar 30, 2011

Jags, I believe he resides at Fairbanks, Alaska.

Wood delivery: some problems with it

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