need user/installer input on this one

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Lousyweather

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We were asked to go repair a stove yesterday, which wasnt igniting, Harman unit, type is unimportant. The technician got out to the home of the owner, found the stove to be filthy (why it wouldnt ignite), but also found the appliance was installed into a flue along with a gas hot water heater (also no permit) and an oil burner (thats right, 3 appliances in one flue!). Also, in the ash pan, we found the fire bricks for the unit (Harman usually ships the brick in the ash pan, expecting the installer to put the bricks in the bracket). So, we have a self-install here that certainly doesnt follow the installation instructions, and seems to be a safety issue as well, with no discernable stove permit. Homeowner is adamant in not paying the repair bill, which we have run into before, we just refuse future service until the last bill has been satisfied. As a certified technician, we feel it is our obligation to inform the local code official as to the unsafe install, lest something bad happen in the home, and, since we knew about it, would seem to assume some culpability. The thing that concerns me is it will look like sour grapes.....(calling the code official because we werent paid)......your ideas, comments, concerns?
 
My concerns(whether they paid the bill or not) would be more in there own safety. I couldn't sleep thinking if something happened and I didn't at least attempt to do something to make it safer. Hopefully they had a working CO detector!
 
I would certainly let the code officials know. These people are deadbeats. Who cares what they think of you. The AHJ needs to know there is an unsafe condition that has to do with fire. If not for the safety of the homeowners, always consider the safety of the first responders who need to wipe the asses of idiots like this.

I'd call it in unless the homeowner agreed to correct all vode violations and paid you to come back and inspect it.
 
I would inform the homeowner their install is not legal, unsafe, and you won't work on it. Walk away. Don't bill them or expect to be paid.
 
Report it. Save them from themselves. After all maybe besides being dead beats they really are dumb enough to not realize there is anything wrong with their set up.
 
Lousyweather,

Call the code enforcement people, let them deal with the idiot. If allowed in that jurisdiction I'd also slap a "so called" mechanics lien on their property for the repair bill.
 
I would definitely call code enforcement and document the call. If those morons manage to start a fire of some kind or get CO2 poisoning, you can be sure your butt would be dragged in when they are searching for someone else to blame. I would call not only to protect them, but to protect yourself as well.
 
I had an issue with a woman who had me out because her stove was making a bad smell. Upon inspection I noted a horizontal run of 31 feet across her attic all completely covered in spray foam insulation. I told her I could not work on the stove unless I reinstalled the venting. She was upset and asked me to leave. I handed her a bill for the service call and she tore it up in front of me. Next stop, Town Hall. If not just to cover my ***. The smell she was picking up was actually the foam starting to melt. I send her a statement every month showing her outstanding bill of $125 plus all of the 1.95% compounding fees. I think she is up to $270 or something now.

I would not be so quick to judge the customer...but definitely cover your assets.
 
I agree with the above comments - especially about the safety of the first responders. Why should they risk their lives to rescue some deadbeat idiots? Their jobs are tough enough without people asking for trouble. They might have to enter this building full of CO, smoke, fire, etc. Do everyone a favor and report the violations.
And what about any adjacent homes that could be burned down when the fire starts? Those people would be innocent victims, too. Any children in the house? More innocent potential victims.
I'm not in favor of Big Brother intrusiveness, but sometimes it's necessary.
On top of all that, there's your potential liability. Report them, if you desire, anonymously. But report this situation. Your conscience will thank you.
 
Stove is obviously not installed to code and I do agree that it is a huge safety issue. In that case I wouldnt touch the stove and would just tell them the issues and how to bring it up to code, also void their warranty until that is installed to code, I wouldnt charge them and just walk away. Would the building inspector / fire marshal give them any sort of fine for that? I would hope they do. I have run into a few stoves that were not installed to code and the owners always say the same thing.......but it has been like that for 3,4,5 years now and nothing bad has happened. I usually make them find their owners manual and make them read the section for install that they did not do to code, then I read them the part in the warranty guideline that states installs that are not done to code will void the warranty. I would also let Harman know what the situation is so they are aware incase the home owner tries to contact Harman direct. Sounds like the owners just dont care. That is unfortunate, especially when they get CO2 poisioning.
 
smwilliamson said:
I had an issue with a woman who had me out because her stove was making a bad smell. Upon inspection I noted a horizontal run of 31 feet across her attic all completely covered in spray foam insulation. I told her I could not work on the stove unless I reinstalled the venting. She was upset and asked me to leave. I handed her a bill for the service call and she tore it up in front of me. Next stop, Town Hall. If not just to cover my ***. The smell she was picking up was actually the foam starting to melt. I send her a statement every month showing her outstanding bill of $125 plus all of the 1.95% compounding fees. I think she is up to $270 or something now.

I would not be so quick to judge the customer...but definitely cover your assets.


Ahhh Scott! I would have dragged the local fire chief to that house. Thats a terrible story.
 
SmokeyTheBear said:
Lousyweather,

Call the code enforcement people, let them deal with the idiot. If allowed in that jurisdiction I'd also slap a "so called" mechanics lien on their property for the repair bill.

cant do that, no "Notice of Contract"......plus legal fees, etc, which arent always reimbursed.....Mechanic's lines can be pricey, and not worthwhile in these little money cases
 
We have lockout tags we use in that situation, we would disable the fireplace and tag it until it is fixed. A pellet stove is not easy to disable though since any wires can just be reconnected.

But just to cover our liability we would lock it out and record it in our computer system that it was locked out due to safety reasons. I have never had a situation bad enough like yours yours where I considered contacting the AHJ, but it is not a bad idea for this case. That type of setup could make it in the news any day from a house/chimney fire or CO related death.
 
Slippery Slope....don't know if I would EVER call a code official in on a customer of client....well, let's say it this way...I have never done so!

Even the Gas Company doesn't do that...or the Oil Company, etc.........

But I would send them a letter - maybe a certified or registered one if I felt it of utmost importance. You can't save people from themselves.......

Oh, I'd refuse to work on the stove, of course!
 
If the dope has a computer and e-mail, you could e-mail him about the situation and cc the local code officials, that way he would at least have a heads-up and time to make the proper installation.
 
not sure of the legal aspect of disabling a stove we dont own ("you came here, it worked, except for igniting, NOW it doesnt work at all....I'm calling the AG, the BBB, etc")........but if I were to disable the stove, I guess I could simply remove the fuse or circuitboard easily. Most likely someone who doesnt clean their stove will not likely figure that one out.......just tell them their installation is not according the manufacturer and state code, is a dangerous situation, AND that when it was rectified and we were paid, we would be happy to go out and re-enable it, free of charge.....still, dont like the aspects of that.

as Craig said, we have never called the code official to report a bad install......you get a name for yourself that way, and its not good, although we've never seen one THIS wrong! In MA, the AHJ can be the homeowner.....
 
If they have children in the house? I'd make sure to do
something to make sure they were safe!!!But being no children,
Maybe just Maybe its Gods will or way to weed out the not so gifted ones :)
 
Very sticky wicket for sure.

Years ago I used to run a small auto repair garage from my home.
I had a middle aged woman bring a little compact car in for some repairs (tuneup or ??)

I took the car for a road test after making the repairs and discovered that the vehicle had almost Zero BRAKES.]

A quick inspection revealed that the front pads were totally used up and the brake rotors were chewed up completely and the rear brakes were nearly as bad.

Bottom line, the car was unsafe to drive.

I informed the owner that she needed this fixed.

I got the brush off. She did pay the bill for the other work.

I documented the issues with the car and the fact that the customer had refused to get it fixed.

Luckily she never hurt any one, but a few days later whizzed through a traffic light (cause she could not stop) and the cops got to her.

The officer had the car towed and gave her a fat ticket.

I was contacted about the issue and gave the cops access to the info.


The issue never came back again, dont know what ever happened.

In the case of the stove situation, the fact that they dont have a permit is ???????????//

I hate big brother sticking there nose in with their hand out for $$$$ BUUUUUUUUUUUT the job must be done right to assure that folks dont get hurt.

So many poorly installed/built things dont bite the one who did it, but come back much later to bite an innocent second party.

Turning the puke in may not have any real effects as the homeowner may not allow them in the house to view the situation.

My suggestion is to carefully document everything (pictures if you can) and cover your butt.

A chat with the fire marshal is certainly a step in the right direction.

If you speak with the head of the Fire EMS dept in the area and document this contact, then you have effectively covered yourself in case something happens and lawsuits start flying.

Its definately a bad situation for sure.


A permit is certainly not needed to do a proper and safe installation, but it will weed out the crap that is unsafe.



Good luck with this one.

Snowy
 
I should explain my "never turn anyone into the authorities" view a little more.......

That's somewhat of the Golden Rule. I would never want anyone to do that to me.

Also, there are unintended consequences to such moves. NPR had a story the other day about a father....whose daughter was doing drugs (not big time, just a party teen)......and forged two checks for $40...HIS CHECKS. So, he thought he was doing her a favor and turned her in so she could get drug treatment.

Well, it turned out this was in a certain county in Georgia where the head of the Drug Court is this crazy and powerful woman. His daughter is sitting right now in REAL jail and will probably have her whole life entirely destroyed because of the "good" thing he did. Oh, he is in the interview saying it was the biggest mistake of his life and he never imagined it would do this to his daughter.....

So...I say always watch what you wish for.......there are code problems in EVERY house. Some worse than others....none of us can singlehanded save the world.

If anyone wants to hear or read about the drug court story:
http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/430/very-tough-love
 
I have been there before. I have been chased out of homes and threatened.
Gas related, but informed the gas company of the infraction, wrote up a tag and sent it in without the make and serial # and let them take it from there.
It's the only way to cover your ass.

People are as a general, not willing to change. "it's been like that since christ was a cowboy" does not fly in my book.

I have pulled out many older units, wood and gas that "should have" went up in flames.

You are NOT wrong and will only get a bad reputation to the rest of their dumb friends. People with two cents in their head will understand you want it right. For their own safety.

It's refreshing when people understand that.
 
I have refused to work on stoves in the past and will still refuse in the future on any stove that is not installed up to code or per manufacture specs. I also inform the home owner on how the stove should be installed and a few have had me reinstall the stove to specs and code. In NY the law is that a carbon detector MUST be installed and working in the house before the stove is installed. When in dought check with your insurance company.
 
all good advice, so, knowing all you folks are sitting out there wondering what the outcome would be, I thought I would fill you in....

the homeowner called back today, after getting the bill we mailed to them, and after a fairly long conversation, they deemed they wouldnt pay it OR rectify the issue of the stove in the same flue with two other appliances. Even though it was installed incorrectly, and the igniter was ash covered and would not ignite, they decided that the real fault lay with the dealer in not telling them to clean the igniter, even though its cleary shown on page 25 of their owner's manual (its a p43)....As for the issue of 3 appliances in one flue, and, after telling them its an excessively dangerous situation, we were told that it isnt our responsibility to tell them how to install it (but it IS our responsibility to make sure they read the manual?!), and that "its been like that for 25 years, so it CANT be unsafe...", so, after being told it was none of my business, I had the sad job of informing them that we would no longer provide service for the unit, be it warrantee or not, until it was brought up to code and manufacturer specs, and the previous bill was paid. I did not call the code official, as some of you suggested, since I agree with Craig in his earlier assessment.
 
Hmmmmm, dont ya just love the canned excuse, "Well its been like that forever"

I have been driving 70 in the school zone since I was a Pup and never ran over a Kid before, so why should I worry.

OMG I hate those canned excuses.

Ohhh and another one, "They did not tell us". Ever notice that the fault always lies with a third party "THEY"

My Father taught me (Many long years ago) to do one thing first. READ THE BOOK OF INSTRUCTIONS PROVIDED

Heck I am a great lover of used things such as stoves and such.

So what, my Whitifelds are both mid 90's vintage units.

So I headed off to the net and downloaded the user manuals and read through them.

Sure, I can do it right without a book, but it is sure smart to see what the manufacture had to say first before going at the job.

More power to ya Bro.

Good to see someone with a good work ethic.

Snowy
 
I always read the manuals. It sort of helps to think of it as "cheating". (tongue firmly planted in cheek)

I, too, love old things and keeping them running. There is precious little that we bought new around here. Our newest car is 11 years old. My oldest tractor is 62 years old.

I can figure things out pretty well, but especially with something that can kill you or burn your house down, it seems like a pretty sane thing to read the manuals. Same with a car or tractor. Everyone knows how to drive one, but each has its features; why not learn how to make the most of them!

R T F M!

(Read The Fine Manual)
 
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