Wood burning nerds please help me. How much to heat with wood VS. oil so I can convince my wife to b

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Wyld Bill

New Member
Feb 5, 2011
99
Maine
So I am not very smart with math stuff. I have a 2005 Vermont Castings Defient wood stove. I guess it is supposed to get around 72% efficiency. I have a Crown CT boiler on #2 fuel that is supposed to get around 83% eff. So,....if we burn wood all Winter & only use the boiler for dom. hot water we use about 4 cord of wood so lets base out figuring on 4 cord of seasoned hardwood. From here out I am lost. I know I an buy green firewood cut, split, delivered for $175 right now & if I wait till the fall it will be $240+ seasoned C,S,D. Oil is 3.80 a gallon right now & it should be quite high this Fall/Winter so we could figure $4.00 to $4.50 I guess.

So how much would I save if I bought 4 cord of wood right now VS waiting to burn oil instead?
How much would I save to buy 4 cord of wood now VS waiting until fall to buy?



thanks wood nerds. ; )
 
By the way I tried to figure this out by looking on-line. I got SO MANY differnet numbers on stuff it is crazy! I got BTU ratings on wood from 15,000,000/cord to 24,000,000 That is quite a span there!
One website said 1 cord of seasoned firewood = 130 gals of #2 fuel. The next website said 1 cord of firewood = 200 to 250 gallons of #2 fuel!!!! What the heck???
 
Get your wood as soon as possible..trust me you will save a bunch of money over oil.
Plus you get to be warmer and think about cold nights in front of the stove with a hot wife ..priceless.
 
If you burn 4 cords, figure 175x5 (extra cord incase you need it)=$875
400 gallons of oil at $4/gal=$1600


5x$240=$1200
1200-875=$325 savings if you buy now.

1600-875=725 in savings over oil.


Buy your wood now. Dry(er) wood will burn much better than moist wood.

Matt
 
I would also say that your assumptions for the price of oil are low- I would be figuring somewhere near the $5/gal mark, but I am sometimes considered a glass half empty kind of guy.
 
Bill, because there is so much variance in types of wood plus how long the wood has seasoned it is very difficult to come up with exact or near exact answers and that is why you see many different figures on the Internet or even talking to people. Just for kicks, let's say the wood seller says he sells you a cord of seasoned hardwood. That sounds great and further, consider that he is very honest. But maybe also you have two wood sellers and both are honest and both sell you seasoned hardwood. Yet, to try to figure which to buy from and how much heat you would get is almost impossible to figure. Why?

When someone sells you hardwood, that term hardwood can mean so darned many types of wood it could make your head spin. For example, one guy sells you seasoned oak. First, I could almost guarantee it will not be properly seasoned. For one thing, most folks consider the seasoning time from the time the tree or firewood has been cut. It should never be counted until the wood has been split and stacked.

It may have been cut 6 months to a year ago but it is a long ways from being seasoned and therefore you would struggle with your fires all winter and never get the amount of heat that oak can give simply because it is not dry enough. We never attempt to burn oak before it has been cut, split and stacked for 3 years! But if that oak was seasoned for that 3 years, there can still be a tremendous difference in what you might get.

Consider that seller #2 sells you hardwood....and it is seasoned popple or willow. True, to most folks those are a soft wood but technically they are hardwoods. But you'll probably burn twice the amount of wood than you would if you burned good oak. Even if seller #1 sells you white ash which is excellent wood and a fast wood to season. That will be worth so much more than popple or willow (or many other types of wood).

It will also matter how you handle the wood when you receive it. If you stack the wood out where it will get lots of wind vs. putting it inside a shed when it is delivered, that which was stacked outdoors will prove to be the better wood. Dry it outside and then move it inside before the snow flies.


We've experimented with wood for many years and I can tell you there is a tremendous difference between wood that has seasoned a year or even two years vs. wood that has seasoned for 5 or 6 years or even more. I'll take that 5-6 year old wood first every time. At present we are burning ash as our main wood because of the trees dying. We've burned ash that has been freshly cut (terrible stuff bit it kept us warm one winter), ash that has seasoned from 1 up to 8 years after being cut, split and stacked. There definitely is a big difference! We ran out of our 6-7 year old ash this past winter so were burning wood we cut in 2009, split and stacked in the spring of 2010. Yes, the wood burned nicely but nowhere near what that 6-7 year old wood did.


However you go, you asked so I will say you will be much further ahead to buy your wood as soon as possible and then get it stacked out in the wind. Stack it so the wood is off the ground too. You can gain a lot more information on wood by going to The Wood Shed part of hearth.com. I hope you look at that forum and we wish you good luck however you go.
 
I know the answer but you called me a nerd. :mad:
 
Backwoods Savage said:
Bill, because there is so much variance in types of wood plus how long the wood has seasoned it is very difficult to come up with exact or near exact answers and that is why you see many different figures on the Internet or even talking to people. Just for kicks, let's say the wood seller says he sells you a cord of seasoned hardwood. That sounds great and further, consider that he is very honest. But maybe also you have two wood sellers and both are honest and both sell you seasoned hardwood. Yet, to try to figure which to buy from and how much heat you would get is almost impossible to figure. Why?

When someone sells you hardwood, that term hardwood can mean so darned many types of wood it could make your head spin. For example, one guy sells you seasoned oak. First, I could almost guarantee it will not be properly seasoned. For one thing, most folks consider the seasoning time from the time the tree or firewood has been cut. It should never be counted until the wood has been split and stacked.

It may have been cut 6 months to a year ago but it is a long ways from being seasoned and therefore you would struggle with your fires all winter and never get the amount of heat that oak can give simply because it is not dry enough. We never attempt to burn oak before it has been cut, split and stacked for 3 years! But if that oak was seasoned for that 3 years, there can still be a tremendous difference in what you might get.

Consider that seller #2 sells you hardwood....and it is seasoned popple or willow. True, to most folks those are a soft wood but technically they are hardwoods. But you'll probably burn twice the amount of wood than you would if you burned good oak. Even if seller #1 sells you white ash which is excellent wood and a fast wood to season. That will be worth so much more than popple or willow (or many other types of wood).

It will also matter how you handle the wood when you receive it. If you stack the wood out where it will get lots of wind vs. putting it inside a shed when it is delivered, that which was stacked outdoors will prove to be the better wood. Dry it outside and then move it inside before the snow flies.


We've experimented with wood for many years and I can tell you there is a tremendous difference between wood that has seasoned a year or even two years vs. wood that has seasoned for 5 or 6 years or even more. I'll take that 5-6 year old wood first every time. At present we are burning ash as our main wood because of the trees dying. We've burned ash that has been freshly cut (terrible stuff bit it kept us warm one winter), ash that has seasoned from 1 up to 8 years after being cut, split and stacked. There definitely is a big difference! We ran out of our 6-7 year old ash this past winter so were burning wood we cut in 2009, split and stacked in the spring of 2010. Yes, the wood burned nicely but nowhere near what that 6-7 year old wood did.


However you go, you asked so I will say you will be much further ahead to buy your wood as soon as possible and then get it stacked out in the wind. Stack it so the wood is off the ground too. You can gain a lot more information on wood by going to The Wood Shed part of hearth.com. I hope you look at that forum and we wish you good luck however you go.
Click to expand...

WOW! thanks so much for all the info.
You definently threw me for a curve with how long you season your wood. I grew up burning wood & around people that all burned wood & I never heard of anyone seasoning wood for more than two years. In fact if someone had wood that had been sitting for more than 5 years I considered it junk not worth trying to burn.
Most of the guys around here are really good. It is not popple or anything like that. Usually mostly ash, oak, some maple, a little birch mixed in. I hear what you are saying though. How do you know what you are getting really,...is it a true cord, what is it, how long has it been sitting split? etc... So trees that were dropped this Winter, cut up & split this late Winter/Spring,..you don't think will be seasoned to burn this Winter if I buy now & stack outside with a tarp over it?
I guess I'll call around some more & ask lots of questions.
Thanks & God Bless
 
Aside from the math, it's just a different kind of heat. Typically, you will feel much warmer.
 
Wyld Bill said:
WOW! thanks so much for all the info.
You definently threw me for a curve with how long you season your wood. I grew up burning wood & around people that all burned wood & I never heard of anyone seasoning wood for more than two years. In fact if someone had wood that had been sitting for more than 5 years I considered it junk not worth trying to burn.
Most of the guys around here are really good. It is not popple or anything like that. Usually mostly ash, oak, some maple, a little birch mixed in. I hear what you are saying though. How do you know what you are getting really,...is it a true cord, what is it, how long has it been sitting split? etc... So trees that were dropped this Winter, cut up & split this late Winter/Spring,..you don't think will be seasoned to burn this Winter if I buy now & stack outside with a tarp over it?
I guess I'll call around some more & ask lots of questions.
Thanks & God Bless
Click to expand...

There is a national hotline if you end up with some junk 5-year old wood and need it removed...it's 1-800-CALL-ED.

Oak will not be ready to burn by this winter. Ash would be the better choice being as it's drying time is much shorter and gives the btu's similar to oak. Any oak that you get you probably should stack it off to the side for the following or most likely the 3rd winter. Many people try to get "several years ahead" on their wood supply. If you how room and $$ now would be the time to start stocking up for the seasons to come.

Do not put a tarp on the wood unless it is on the *very* top of the stack. Tarping a stack of wood will trap moisture, preventing it from evaporating. Wind is the major drying factor for wood. Old scrap tin roofing is often recommended being as it's rigid and pieces of wood, rocks, or even rope can be used to hold it down. Be sure and stack off the ground...stack on pallets, 2x4's placed on top of cement blocks, on small trees laid parallel on the ground, etc.,. Stacking directly on the ground will cause rot and invite termites.

As for knowing what you are buying from somebody, that will come with experience and some research. A moisture meter will let you know roughly what the moisture content is, though the best thing is a wood supply that is two or more years ahead...then you don't have to worry about it. Fresh (green) wood will have the bark still on it and the grain should help to ID the species. As for whether it's a cord or not...a pile can be deceiving, though knowing the dimensions of the truck or trailer that the wood arrives in will let you quickly and fairly accurately calculate the volume. Of course once the wood is stacked you'll know what volume is there.

Best wishes to you, get your wood (ash hopefully) cut, split, and stacked!

Ed
 
homebrewz said:
Aside from the math, it's just a different kind of heat. Typically, you will feel much warmer.
Click to expand...

Yeah unfortunatly that's what my wife & I just found. We pulled all of our fuel delivery reciepts since we had the house built in 2005. Seems we use up to 800 gallons of fuel a year on a bad year (cold, no woodstove) and only about 600 gallons on a good year (burning 3 cord to 4 cord of wood)
I installed the oil heating system and it is pretty sweet: It's a Crown CT three pass sctoch marine boiler, cold start, with 4 zones, ARGO zone controller, set back t-stats, external dom hot water tank on a time clock, etc. Nobody is here durning the day M-F so the house is set back to 60 degrees and also 65 degrees at night, the south facing shades are all open & on sunny days when I get home the house is as high as 76 degrees on a mild Winter day & on a cold cold sunny day around 70.
So the oil/hyronic heating system is pretty efficient. In fact the last time I tested it I was getting 87% efficiency which I thought was a miscalculation but maybe it was right.
Also I get a pretty sweet discount on fuel oil because our company buys all our fuel from one company & beats them up pretty good.

So bottom line,...if I buy wood now at $175/cord I'll only save like $150 to $250 (depending on the price of fuel) on heating my house next Fall, Winter, Spring.
If I buy in the fall I basically have no savings over using oil.
BUT the house will be heated all day for the dog LOL!! and my wife likes it 72-74 degrees inside all the time in the Winter. Also the wood stove is nice & I like watching it burn at night. Moot points but I got to find some reason to put up with the mess & hassle for almost no savings.
I wish I had more trees that needed to be cut down on my own property.

Just another note, I was thinking of building a nice woodshed this year. If I did that it would actually cost me MORE money to burn wood this year ARGH!!!
 
Intheswamp said:
Wyld Bill said:
WOW! thanks so much for all the info.
You definently threw me for a curve with how long you season your wood. I grew up burning wood & around people that all burned wood & I never heard of anyone seasoning wood for more than two years. In fact if someone had wood that had been sitting for more than 5 years I considered it junk not worth trying to burn.
Most of the guys around here are really good. It is not popple or anything like that. Usually mostly ash, oak, some maple, a little birch mixed in. I hear what you are saying though. How do you know what you are getting really,...is it a true cord, what is it, how long has it been sitting split? etc... So trees that were dropped this Winter, cut up & split this late Winter/Spring,..you don't think will be seasoned to burn this Winter if I buy now & stack outside with a tarp over it?
I guess I'll call around some more & ask lots of questions.
Thanks & God Bless
Click to expand...

There is a national hotline if you end up with some junk 5-year old wood and need it removed...it's 1-800-CALL-ED.

Oak will not be ready to burn by this winter. Ash would be the better choice being as it's drying time is much shorter and gives the btu's similar to oak. Any oak that you get you probably should stack it off to the side for the following or most likely the 3rd winter. Many people try to get "several years ahead" on their wood supply. If you how room and $$ now would be the time to start stocking up for the seasons to come.

Do not put a tarp on the wood unless it is on the *very* top of the stack. Tarping a stack of wood will trap moisture, preventing it from evaporating. Wind is the major drying factor for wood. Old scrap tin roofing is often recommended being as it's rigid and pieces of wood, rocks, or even rope can be used to hold it down. Be sure and stack off the ground...stack on pallets, 2x4's placed on top of cement blocks, on small trees laid parallel on the ground, etc.,. Stacking directly on the ground will cause rot and invite termites.

As for knowing what you are buying from somebody, that will come with experience and some research. A moisture meter will let you know roughly what the moisture content is, though the best thing is a wood supply that is two or more years ahead...then you don't have to worry about it. Fresh (green) wood will have the bark still on it and the grain should help to ID the species. As for whether it's a cord or not...a pile can be deceiving, though knowing the dimensions of the truck or trailer that the wood arrives in will let you quickly and fairly accurately calculate the volume. Of course once the wood is stacked you'll know what volume is there.

Best wishes to you, get your wood (ash hopefully) cut, split, and stacked!

Ed
Click to expand...
Well I may have found my answer. I have several trees right around my house that I think are dead/dying from the damage that the root systems had from the house being built 6 years ago.
My wife likes them & doesn't want me to cut them down but I think they are going to come crashing down on our house one of these days during a storm. The best part is I THINK they are all ash. They are light in color with green oval/single point leaves that turn light brown in the winter. The branches are quite crooked.
How much wood does one good sized tree (30 to 50' high 24" dia. trunk) yield?
 
Bill, I had a nice long answer typed up then went back and saw more posts.
You've already got it figured out, I guess.
You burn 600 gallons of oil AND 3-4 cord of wood every winter?
Dang, how big is that house and/or how well/poorly insulated is it?
Different strokes. :blank:
 
PapaDave said:
Bill, I had a nice long answer typed up then went back and saw more posts.
You've already got it figured out, I guess.
You burn 600 gallons of oil AND 3-4 cord of wood every winter?
Dang, how big is that house and/or how well/poorly insulated is it?
Different strokes. :blank:
Click to expand...

I use 600 gallons of fuel all year. I use oil to heat my domestic hot water for showers & stuff too. My house is 28'x55' ranch with a finished daylight basement with a one car garage in it.
I live in central Maine on top of a hill. It is insulated quite well. My biggest loss of heat is through the garage door in the basement. The Attic has like 24" of insulation. Another heat loss area is where the two halves of my house come together (modular home).
I dunno,....600 gallons all year for Maine seems pretty darn good to me.
 
Wyld Bill,

Something doesn't add up for me. You mention that burning 3-4 cords of wood only saves you 200 gallons of oil. How big is your home? I see it was built in 2005, has a high efficiency boiler, and should be well insulated. So why the savings of only 200 gallons of oil saved?

For comparison sake, this is my first year burning, I burned about 1 1/2 cords (at the most) this year burning part-time. I figure I saved just over 200 gallons of oil in my 1971, not very well insulated (except for the attic) closed style floor plan home. Now we did replace two exterior doors and a sliding door, but we still have the original windows in this place and I am sure very little insulation in our walls. Of course, I live in New York and not Maine as you do, so that may make a big difference. Though this winter did seem to be colder than in the past.

It just seems like you should be saving more oil than you are, that's all.
 
Bill, wasn't trying to be a butthead (even though I may be one).
We live in northern Michigan so I know we've probably got similar climates. Close house sizes too, although we're not on a basement. Only about 6" ins. in the attic (mostly), and most of the house is on slab (cool all year).
Some sealing would help (my house too). Being on a hill doesn't help. Maybe a windrow/break of some sort?
Any idea how your oil heat usage breaks out? We use wood exclusively.
Are you talking FULL cord or "face cord" when you talk about wood use. Makes a big difference.
Just trying to give you some comparisons.
 
Wyld Bill said:
Backwoods Savage said:
.
Click to expand...

WOW! thanks so much for all the info.
You definently threw me for a curve with how long you season your wood. I grew up burning wood & around people that all burned wood & I never heard of anyone seasoning wood for more than two years. In fact if someone had wood that had been sitting for more than 5 years I considered it junk not worth trying to burn.
Most of the guys around here are really good. It is not popple or anything like that. Usually mostly ash, oak, some maple, a little birch mixed in. I hear what you are saying though. How do you know what you are getting really,...is it a true cord, what is it, how long has it been sitting split? etc... So trees that were dropped this Winter, cut up & split this late Winter/Spring,..you don't think will be seasoned to burn this Winter if I buy now & stack outside with a tarp over it?
I guess I'll call around some more & ask lots of questions.
Thanks & God Bless
Click to expand...

Sorry to throw you a curve Bill but just thought you might benefit from the information. Of course, there is more. lol

You can say I began my wood burning experience during the 1940's and that continued off and on until at last we have been burning wood steady since 1975 except for a very brief 2 month period. You no doubt saw some of the things we've witnessed in how people burn and handle wood and the lack of seasoning. How I learned about seasoning wood was after I left home in my teen years. I lived for a time with a sort-of adopted style and love those people but did not like how they burned wood. Yes, they got along well with it but every year we would be out cutting wood just as the real heating season began. Then I found out after being in different homes that almost everyone just cut the wood and then expected it to burn. Naturally I put 2 and 2 together and came up with 22. Seasoned is much better.

But, when does seasoning begin and for how long is it needed? It does not begin when the tree is cut but begins after the wood is cut to firewood length and then split and stacked out in the wind to dry. I have found one exception (most things doe have some exceptions) and that is the soft maple we have. I can cut a soft maple one winter and leave it. By the next winter it had best be cut up else it will start to turn punky. It can be burned then right after splitting and stacking but just a month or two will in the stack will make it even better.

How long can wood be seasoned? In my early years I figured 3-4 years would be about the maximum because we had some when I was young and I found lots of punk in the old stacks. However, there are 2 things we did not do then and that is we never put anything under the wood to raise it up off the ground and we never covered our wood.

I do remember my father making cooking stove wood, which means making small splits (they dry faster and burn just right in the cook stove) and then I had to stack all that stuff (a huge job for a young lad) inside the woodshed. Being so small it took a long time to stack but I was so proud of it when it was finished! It just looked good all stacked neatly. Then I also had the honor of taking wood from the shed and placing it in our covered back porch so mother could get it as needed....or ask Dennis to go bring her some wood for the stove.

I also recall not that long ago about having to dispose of some firewood. It was all white ash and half of it had not been split. As near as we could figure it had been in that shed for a minimum of 10 years and some thought it to be closer to 15. I just call it ten. Naturally I first thought about just taking it home but then remembered a relative who burned wood and was having some physical problems. He ended up with the wood and loved it!


Your ash, oak, maple and birch should make an excellent combination. I would tend to place oak in the bottom rear of the stove for holding the fire a long time. Birch would be place in the front bottom. The rest could be filled however it is best depending upon the weather. If the coldest part of winter, then fill the rest with oak. If more moderate weather, fill with ash or maple although there will not be a huge difference in burn times unless the maple is soft maple.

How you know how much you got and to know if that cord is a true cord is to just do some simple math. A cord of wood is 128 cubic feet of wood. Normally that is based upon a stack of wood 4' deep x 4'high x 8' long. So 4 x 4 = 16. 16 x 8 = 128. If the wood is cut to 16" length, then it takes 3 rows stacked 4' high and 8 foot long.

If you cut that wood last winter and got it split and stacked this spring it could possibly be ready next winter but depend on what type of wood it is. That oak will not be ready but the other, especially the ash and birch. I would not cover the wood until next fall or winter; for sure before the snow flies.

Good luck.
 
Wyld Bill said:
Well I may have found my answer. I have several trees right around my house that I think are dead/dying from the damage that the root systems had from the house being built 6 years ago.
My wife likes them & doesn't want me to cut them down but I think they are going to come crashing down on our house one of these days during a storm. The best part is I THINK they are all ash. They are light in color with green oval/single point leaves that turn light brown in the winter. The branches are quite crooked.
How much wood does one good sized tree (30 to 50' high 24" dia. trunk) yield?
Click to expand...

Bill, do those trees look anything like these trees in these pictures? If so, you have white ash.

Ashborerdamage-3.jpg
Ashborerdamage-2.jpg


If they look like this tree, they are not ash.

Dennythinkingaboutcuttingoneredwood.jpg



On the wood shed; you can get along just fine without a shed for quite some time so long as you have a good cover for the wood. Tarps are my last choice but I have used them. I like old galvanized roofing about the best or some fiberglass panels.
 
EatenByLimestone said:
If you burn 4 cords, figure 175x5 (extra cord incase you need it)=$875
400 gallons of oil at $4/gal=$1600


5x$240=$1200
1200-875=$325 savings if you buy now.

1600-875=725 in savings over oil.


Buy your wood now. Dry(er) wood will burn much better than moist wood.

Matt
Click to expand...

+1

In my neck of the woods, you can get a cord of oak for around $100 from some of the locals that have wood on their property that are just trying to make a little cash on the side.

If you find a closeout Englander 30-NCH at Home Depot for the $649 price, you can pay for your stove in one season.

Good luck,
Bill


Bill
 
Yeah something doesn't make sense here. I just talked to my buddy at church. He has a BIG two story house with 5 kids that never close the frotn door on the house. His hot water for his showers, washing cloths etc. come off the boiler too,they don't turn the heat down during the day either. He only uses about 800 gallons a year. Maybe the oil company is cheating us.
 
Wyld Bill said:
Yeah something doesn't make sense here. I just talked to my buddy at church. He has a BIG two story house with 5 kids that never close the frotn door on the house. His hot water for his showers, washing cloths etc. come off the boiler too,they don't turn the heat down during the day either. He only uses about 800 gallons a year. Maybe the oil company is cheating us.
Click to expand...
Still @ 4.00/gall that's 3,200.00!
 
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