I need an opinion on a Tarm 402 boiler. I'm trying to decide whether to buy a refurbished Tarm 402 or go with a forced air furnace. I do not have a basement so whatever I end up with will have to go outside in a building. I have a forced air propane furnace that I can't afford to feed (stupid thing is broken anyway) so if I go with the boiler, I'd have to use a water to air HX. I'm thinking the boiler would be a better long term solution since I could change it out for a gasser later. I am on a very tight budget and a gasifier is totally out of the question right now. I have enough to buy the Tarm...or I could spring for a Fire Chief or Yukon Big Jack. I'm not crazy about the idea of punching holes through my foundation for air ducts. I realize that the boiler install would be more expensive since I'd have to buy the HX, circulation pumps, build a larger building, and come up with some tanks for the storage system. On the other hand, it would make all the DHW we would ever need (reducing my monthly donations to the power co), and it would make it easy to add some radiant floor heat later if I chose to. I guess I'm a little concerned about buying an old boiler. It has been cleaned, pressure tested to 50 psi, and had all gaskets replaced. Any suggestions?
New install...forced air vs boiler
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Singed Eyebrows
Minister of Fire
The Tarm should work fine with real dry wood. You will need to keep an eye on the creosote with any non gasser. If you are going to buy a non gasser, Tarm is one of the best from everything I have read, Randy PS, I would not be too concerned about buying a fabricated plate non gasser as they don't get the acid attack of the gassers.loganj01 said:
So...someone wanted the Tarm more than I did. I suppose it wasn't meant to be... Anyway, I'm thinking and that's not always a good thing (just ask my wife). There is a Firecraft boiler listed on Ebay right now, but I couldn't find any info on it other than the trademark is owned by Ford Products. The Tarm 303 that is listed is pretty much a coal (anthracite) only. Anthracite is not available here in Georgia. I can only get large chunks of bituminous which Tarm says not to use in their boilers. I really want something that will contribute dhw as well as heating my house. I wonder how well one of the hot air wood/coal burners such as the Yukon or Fire Chief with a sidearm would heat say...a thousand gallons of unpressurized storage? The reason I am even thinking about this is I'd like to incorporate solar hot water into the equation and a large, unpressurized storage I tank seems to be the simplest way to make that happen. I will search the forums here when I have more time later this week, but I appreciate any input any of you might have in the meantime.
Hmm...so input seems to be lacking a bit...lol. A phone call to Keith at Yukon today, after looking at their website, netted the info that their water heating attachment would give approximately an 80*F temp rise to about 18 gallons an hour. That's not bad but I don't think it would really drive a large unpressurized storage system. I expect with an appropriately sized storage tank, one could probably supply their dhw needs as long as no radiant heat, ect... was being drawn from the tank. I'm working on the assumption that the 80* rise @ 18 gph is best case when the furnace is running at full capacity and that performance would degrade somewhat as the fuel supply ran low or the dampers/forced draft fan closed up/shut down. In my case, I still feel like a boiler would be the best route to go since storage could be used so much more effectively. Has anyone used an older non gasifying indoor boiler such as the Tarm 402 or equivalent? Are they reasonably efficient or will I be up every three hours shoving wood in it like I do my old Craft insert? I keep thinking that they can't be that bad and that all the infrastructure would be in place to add a gasifier later when it was realistically in the budget. I wonder what I would need to do with my well water to use it in the boiler? It's very hard water and leaves deposits on everything. The chemist at work told me that it wouldn't be a good idea to use caustic (sodium hydroxide) to adjust the pH in anything that had a copper coil. Has anyone else here had any experience with this?
Tennman
Minister of Fire
If I was on a tight budget I'd look at how much it would cost to get the propane furnace going so you can properly research and select your boiler. A good rule of thumb around here is take the price of the boiler and double it for an intall. I've found that to be pretty accurate in my case. Our wood boiler is our primary heat source now, but during this time of year we run propane briefly rather than start and keep the boiler going. If you're tight for money and we're now approaching the end of the heating season at our latitude, I'd look at fixing the propane furnace and save to do the boiler right for next winter.
I can fix the propane furnace...about 98% certain it needs a control board since I've checked out pretty much everything else. My problem is that I can either divert the funds I have available to setting up a wood fired heating system or I can dump it into the propane tank and have it all sucked out by this time next year. Next year won't be any better either. Still be paying the child support...wife will still be full time college...her ex still won't be paying her any child support. Not complaining about the situation...just stating how it is. Now in about 3 years, child support will be done...wife will have her masters in accounting...her ex might be paying her something even. Hell I might be able to retire from the chemical plant and just cut wood and play with my old tractors...lol. We do, however, get a pretty nice profit sharing bonus every year and, after I caught up a couple of bills, I have a couple of grand left to start setting up a heating system. If I don't get it finished by winter, we'll heat with the insert like we have for the last couple of years and use electric space heaters to take up the slack when needed...mainly in the kids rooms. I hate the thought of throwing more money away to the propane company...the electric co-op...ect... Year after year after year. So, let me ask this. The storage, the distribution, the flue pipe...assuming you do all these things the right way...are not any different for a plate boiler or a gasifier boiler. Correct? And if you have sufficient storage set up, you can fire your boiler at 100% output to bring the storage up to temp, and let the boiler shut down until your storage temp has dropped to a level that requires refiring? Other than a more involved installation and whatever has to be done to maintain the water chemistry in the boiler, I'm having a hard time finding fault with this setup. Am I missing something?
In heating appliances, size matters.Too big is just as bad as too small. The best way to start is to do a heat loss calculation (of your house) to determine the optimal size boiler to suit your needs. This will give you an idea of how many btus to produce whether for storage or loads. It will also determine pipe size and emitter layout.
All the planning is free. I would also be putting up your wood supply right now as seasoned wood rules the roost. Once you know the particulars choose a boiler, many are represented here on the banner adds.You can add storage on later if you can't do it upfront. Just pipe it for hookup, when you get the tank just plumb it in.
Will
All the planning is free. I would also be putting up your wood supply right now as seasoned wood rules the roost. Once you know the particulars choose a boiler, many are represented here on the banner adds.You can add storage on later if you can't do it upfront. Just pipe it for hookup, when you get the tank just plumb it in.
Will
Tennman
Minister of Fire
I would be willing to bet that 98% of the wood boiler operators here have some type of backup heating system. Mine happens to be propane also. And yes, you are on the right track to free yourself from the propane supplier. But start adding up the expenses to install just the underground lines, water to air heat exchanger, controls, pump, valves, etc you're looking at $2-3K and haven't purchased the boiler yet, new or used. Your plan is a good one but the expense of several propane tank fills probably won't cover a boiler install. You have the better part of 8 months to start to piece together your heating solution for next winter with lots of folks here willing to guide you. Keep posting. Folks will chime in.
I agree with the above statements. I do intend to keep the propane operating as a backup system even if I have to replace the furnace. My intention is to house the boiler in a building that is either attached to the house or very close so the PEX run will be very short. I work for a chemical company and we are currently replacing our old "control" systems with a new state of the art system. What that means for me is there are all sorts of parts that could be incorporated into a control system for a home boiler. There is also a lot of stainless piping, fittings, valves, ect... being torn out and replaced as we bring the new control system online. There is also a 1000 gallon stainless tank that's coming out soon that I might be able to talk them out of. Add the fact that I can do most anything myself including welding pressurized pipes/tanks and I think I might pull this installation off for a little less money than average. My only obstacle is that there is no way I can afford a modern gasification boiler at this point in time so I'll have to settle for something used that will get me by until things improve. I'm going to pull my old Craft insert out this year since the damper is pretty well burned out...probably from the coal. Anyway, I'm going to put in a heat shield made out of 1/4 stainless plate under the damper plate. I am going to decrease the size of the damper since its connected to a 40 something foot tall chimney and the draft will darn near pull a stick of wood out of your hands. I'm going to add some secondary burn tubes to get the secondary air in there. Since my heat exchanger only goes around the sides and doesn't go over the top, I though about covering the top of the stove with firebrick as well. Anyway, if I have to heat with it for another season it won't be a tragedy. Right now, there is a super hot coal fire in the above mentioned Craft, it's almost uncomfortably warm in the living room, all three kids are sound asleep, and it's garden season...nothing else matters. Broccoli, cauliflower, cabbage, and peas are growing...old John Deere 212 started right up as usual... fruit trees and berry bushes are putting on buds... I love spring!
Ok, so I finally made a decision. After looking at boilers and furnaces for months, making comparisons, and reading for hours on the internet, I called Keith at Yukon today and ordered a Klondike furnace. I looked at every furnace made...several times. I tried to find something less expensive. I found something I didn't like about every furnace I looked at except the Yukon. It wasn't the least expensive by a long shot. I still have to build an addition on the side of the house to put the boiler in and shell out the bucks for a good stainless chimney. I upped the blower motor to 1/2 horse (at Keith's recommendation) and got the shaker grates in case I ever want to use coal. I'm going to get the propane unit working as a backup to the wood burner...hopefully before cold weather comes back. Has anyone used a Honeywell Focus 6000 thermostat? I was thinking about trying one of those with this unit?
woodsmaster
Minister of Fire
Tennman said:
I'm one of the few that won't have a backup. If somthing breaks I'll be geting out the elec. space heaters and or getting a kerosean heater. Lets hope nothing fails.
woodsmaster
Minister of Fire
loganj01 said:
Congadulations on your boiler. Don't wait till october to install it. I started on mine middle of last summer and still didn't get done by winter. I had some other projects going on at the same time. How many months do you heat in northern georga ?
Usually about 5 months. We have a month or so on either end of the cold weather where we have 70* days and 30* nights. My house isn't very efficient either. It's built out of concrete block with brick on the outside. There is a gap of about 1.5" between the brick and the block. Then they laid the 2x4's for the inside walls flat against the block and covered them with paneling. The only insulation is some fiberglass in the roof and the vermiculite that was poured in the blocks. It has cathedral ceilings in half of the house and has 27 windows. Anyway, it's a challenge to heat and cool it.
Wow...I ordered my Yukon furnace on Friday afternoon...I think it was about 4pm here in Georgia. Freight company called me today and it will be delivered tomorrow. That's pretty darn good service all the way from Minnesota.
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