newbie needs advice about safety

I am a learner burner. I have great respect for fire. Stoves are safe. Go to a stove store and look at their models. Find out how to read the stove owner/installation manuals online. If you install according to the manufacturer requirements, your husband can sleep like a baby.

I am doing an install this week and following every word, instruction, hint, and suggestion in the Owners Manual. After I get it in, I am going to try things out to see how it works and if I feel it is safe. If my wood ever seasons, I will try to start burning on a more regular basis.

Welcome to the forum. Enjoy all the info the members provide. Scarey story about husbands prvious experience, although I have one thats worse. Years ago a family had their furnasce serviced. When the Man of the house came home from work and turned up the thermostate....KABOOM. Sad a few people killed. Never heard of a woodstove "exploding".

Enough of the sad stuff, ENJOY the forums and best of luck to you.

It took me some time to even convince my wife to let me do a permanent install and finally got it done last fall. Was very cautious and checked/cleaned the chimney every couple weeks (wood wasn't the best) My stove is a late '80's model CAT stove and since all the knowledge I've acquired here it has been a real joy to have in the house. Where it is located there in very little attic access and alot of framing close by, so I will pull the chimney this summer and be double sure there was no ill effects in that area. Keep a close eye and be familiar with your stove's operation and it will soon be another family member.

I'd probably be a little nervous too if I experienced that. EPA certified stoves, properly installed and operated correctly, are much safer than most older stoves. Burn dry wood, clean the chimney at least annually, and you won't have anything to worry about. Our oil furnace cracked its manifold and spewed fumes into our heating ducts the first year we lived here. The wood stove has been much nicer to us.

learn how to burn...it's more than just throwing wood into a stove. a thermometer on the pipe coming from the stove gives you a good idea of how hot things are.
burn dry wood...DRY! if you don't, you tend to burn the stove hotter than you should. also, when wood isn't dry, creosote forms more readily in the chimney system. this, combined with burning the stove hotter, is a recipe for disaster. which leads to the next point.
keep your chimney clean.
these are just a few basic pointers...other than that,
welcome to the forum! there is a wealth of knowledge (and humor) on this site. be sure to check back from time to time and especially during the heating season! it really gets busy, then.

WildOlive said:

...Fire company's best theory was that the extreme temps caused the insulation in the chimney to collapse...

Click to expand...

Well, I'm not an expert, but that doesn't make a lot of sense to me. What makes sense to me is the extreme temps meant that the folks were pushing the stove hard (burning hot and long), and a flaw in the original installation (clearance to combustibles up in the attic/roof penetration area) reared its ugly head. In any case, a woodstove and flue system properly matched together and installed in strict accordance with both local code and the manufacturers' requirements, and then operated and maintained intelligently, is a perfectly safe way to heat your home. Rick

I worry more about my Dryer Catching Fire, than I do any stove I own. If properly operated and properly kept maintained. Then all should be well. I am not a 30 year burner like BrotherBart, but I have been "Burning" per say, for 3 years. In those 3 years my LP furnace has not run. I will not give the Propane company my money for heat anymore. I hope your Husband comes to terms. Once he see's that its an outlet, to "Buy" certain "Man" items and it also gives one a sense of PRIDE to heat your home.

Keep us updated.......... Oh, we LOVE Pics..............

WildOlive said:

We have a drafty 150 year old two story, 3,000 sq. ft. farm house. Any suggestions are more than welcome.

Click to expand...

As much as I hate to say it, don't buy a stove yet.... you would probably get much more bang for your buck if before you go with a woodstove you insulate and take care of those drafts. That should be first on the list IMHO.

Shawn

Random thoughts . . .


Ding. Ding. Ding. Fire started after the mother-in-law damped the fire for the night. Two things cause creosote in a chimney . . . although truthfully they're really two sides of the same coin . . . burning unseasoned wood and burning without enough oxygen . . . which can both result in a fire with lower temps . . . and lower temps will produce cresoote. I suspect, like Fossil, that what happened is over time of damping the fire down for the night -- as many of us were taught for eons -- creosote was formed . . . eventually the creosote caught on fire . . . perhaps from running the stove hot to stay warm on the -40 degree night . . . and the result was a chimney fire that caught nearby combustible framing on fire . . . the insulation falling down from the heat . . . never heard of it happening . . . although I am not a fire investigator.

Insulation . . . sounds like you're doing the right thing . . . I'm a big advocate of insulating before upgrading the heating system if you have to look at doing one or the other . . . not because I'm all about being green, saving the environment and using less energy . . . I simply want to keep the heat I work hard (or spend my hard earned money on) inside the home . . . and not waste a lot of time or money using up extra wood.

Gotta disagree with Mother Earth News . . . totally wrong mind-set and approach to burning with wood . . . a better approach is to take the Boy Scout motto of "Be Prepared" to heart . . . in other words it's not a given that you will have a fire if you heat with wood and many folks have gone many years or even their whole life without a fire . . . but at the same time it's wise to just think and have some plans in place . . . just in case.

Don't fool yourself . . . heating with wood sounds great and wonderful when you picture everyone curled around the woodstove reading or playing board games . . . but it is a lot of work . . . even if you have your wood delivered all cut and split . . . you still need to stack the wood, move the wood inside, take care of the ashes, clean the stove, clean the area around the stove . . . and even I will admit that towards Spring having to re-load or even worse start a fire from scratch can get to be a pain. It's definitely not as easy as turning up a thermostat to the oil or gas stove . . . but there are plenty of savings and there are some other rewards for the senses in terms of the view, smells and feel of the fire . . . but it is work . . . fun work for me . . . but work nonetheless.

Five years difference (give or take a year or two) between your husband and me which should place him around 35-36 and the stove they had back in 1993 if it was already 16 years old would make it a 1977 stove . . . give or take a bit. I cannot say that EPA stoves are much safer than the old stoves . . . I will say they use less wood and burn cleaner . . . but you're still building a fire in your living room. A fire in an improperly installed or maintained stove from 1977 or 2011 can still burn a house down. Granted, many of the newer stoves do have closer clearances to combustibles . . . but again . . . if you fail to follow the manufacturer's instructions for installation . . . you can still burn down your house.

Respect fire, but don't fear it. As Brother Bart mentioned you really need to be more concerned with you, your husband or kids' cooking habits of frying up hamburg on the stove and then going out to do some chores, watch TV, etc. Cooking is the leading cause of fires and fire injuries. Coming it at #2 are electrical problems . . . which could be a problem in an older home. Finishing off the top three list is heating equipment . . . so it is a concern . . . but again . . install according to the manufacturer's specs, use seasoned wood, learn how to use the stove and run the stove at the correct temps, maintain the stove and chimney on a regular basis, utilize safe burning practices and habits and dispose of your ash safely . . . and you'll never meet me or any of my fellow brothers and sisters . . . unless you run into us at the Firefighter Calendar Signing or Firefighter Car Wash.

WildOlive said:

Sorry for the 20 questions, my husband laughs at me because I need to study things from every angle and research them to death before making a decision. Again, thanks so much for the help!

Click to expand...

It ok to ask 20 questions! The more you know, the more informed a decision you can make!

Hi -

The safety aspect is pretty simple in my mind. I have had zero problems with instals that meet code, AND burn dry wood. I clean the chimney annually now. My youngest is 14 now. They can and do run the stove, often 24/7. My girls crave heat!

If one is concerned one could bias the design to allow inspection of the chimney chase if needed. I'd start laying in wood now. Then go to a store and have them explain what the install would consist of. I got comfortable with mine after the first month when I cleaned the chimney and got less than a handful of fly ash. Good wood and good modern stoves/chimney systems are a huge blessing.

ATB,
Mike P

WildOlive said:

...So does this mean my idea of only burning wood during the day and using the oil furnace at night is a bad idea?

Click to expand...

Got nothing to do with it, really. Once you have a properly installed woodstove and become comfortable with its operation and maintenance (which is minimal), you can use your heat sources in whatever way makes sense to you and keeps you comfortable (physically and emotionally).

WildOlive said:

...Also, I understand that a chimney that goes directly out the wall and then up the outside of the house is more susceptible to creosote build-up. But, say there was a chimney fire, would your house be less likely to catch, since the chimney is not inside it?

Click to expand...

Perhaps, but a straight-up interior flue is more efficient, will tend to collect less creosote, and is easier to clean. I've never had a chimney fire. I don't think it's all that difficult to avoid ever having a chimney fire. A properly installed clean-burning EPA certified woodstove, properly seasoned wood, avoiding burning anything other than wood in the stove, and regular inspection/cleaning (as necessary) of the flue should preclude ever having a chimney fire. Keep asking questions! Rick

WildOlive said:

A couple of the articles I've read online (I know one was Mother Earth News, can't remember where the other one was) have stated that if you burn wood, a chimney fire is a matter of when, not if. What's the deal with that? It makes it sound as if you will inevitably have a fire at some point, even if you do everything right.

He has admitted that at least half the reason he didn't want wood was he didn't want to deal with cutting, stacking, chopping, etc. I have promised we will buy our wood, delivered, have the thing professionally installed and maintained, only run it in the daytime when we are home, and get our 6 & 9 yr. old slaves to do as much as is safe. We have a dairy farm, and his days are pretty full already. When I suggested a propane stove as a possible alternative, he shot it down immediately saying it would be foolish when we have all this woodland with free fuel. We joke a bit about society collapsing, but I do like his line of thinking on this. I'm sure by the end of summer we'll have a woodstove! We're having some other work done on the house this summer, so it makes sense to do it now.

I'm having fun researching my options, at any rate. All I know is I want a non catalytic stove and I want to be able to cook on it. We have a drafty 150 year old two story, 3,000 sq. ft. farm house. Any suggestions are more than welcome.

Click to expand...

Welcome to the forum WildOlive. You will find much knowledge in these pages of hearth.com as there are many, many good folks here and they are willing to help.

To start with, we have much in common as both my wife and I grew up on dairy farms and we both still love the old farm houses.

I have lots to say but will try to keep it short. First I'd like to comment on that Mother Earth News article. We have had folks come on this forum and spout the same junk. One fellow in particular stands out in my memory and he appeared to want to help others but I had to take him up after he spouted the same thing and did it more than once. So, if I keep burning wood then that means that I will have a chimney fire?! Well, we're past 50 years of wood burning and have not had a chimney fire yet nor do we expect to. There is no reason to have one!

So how do you keep from having those chimney fires? That is easy to answer but not so easy to do for most folks. The biggest key is what BeGreen touched on. It is all in the fuel you burn. Imagine what would happen if you put poor fuel in those tractors. They certainly would not perform as they should and the same thing will happen with a wood stove. Burn poor fuel and you will have problems. The key is to have 2-3 years worth of wood, cut, split and stacked out in the wind. That assures your wood will be good to burn and not cause that creosote in the chimney.

Now what about that chimney that goes out through the wall and up the side of the house? Well, it is the most ideal if it goes up inside the house but that does not mean it can't be done the other way. Our present chimney goes up along the outside of the house and we have no problems with it and we do not have it enclosed in a chase either. So although it is not the very best method, it can and will work.

You will have a wood stove by the end of the summer?! Great.....but please realize that right now you need to be thinking more about the fuel. Wood can not be handled like gas or oil. That is, with gas or oil, when you need some you just order it and can burn it right away. Not so with wood! Wood needs time to dry properly and most wood burns best if it has been split and stacked for a year. Oak needs even more time and we won't burn it until it has been split and stacked for 3 years!

Okay, what about that stove? You state, "All I know is I want a non catalytic stove and I want to be able to cook on it." So I have to ask, why are you set on a non catalytic stove? You want to cook on it? Great! Before we purchased our last stove we too had decided to stay away from a cat stove because we had heard some bad things about them. We now know that indeed there have been a few bad ones but that was some time ago.

Story short, we ended up buying a cat stove and absolutely love it. Why? It cut our fuel needs in half and we stay warmer too! How can you lose with that? Oh yes, the cooking. Hardly a day goes by during the winter months that something is not cooking on our catalytic stove. Not only that, but we also have a soapstone stove. Can you really cook on one of those? Yes!

The insulation and new windows will certainly help a lot and we wish you well on this project. It sounds like you have a couple of young hands there to help and this is good for them. I started helping with the wood stove and the wood when I was about 5 or 6 years old....and I still love it.

Keep smiling!
Dennis

WildOlive said:

We are renovating as we can. We have replaced all the downstairs windows, and the room the stove will be in is insulated (rest of the downstairs is not, yet). This summer we are gutting the entire upstairs and remodeling, so it will have all new windows, and spray foam insulation. I am unclear as to whether the spray foam will be sprayed down into the downstairs walls or not. So, we are working on it. It's much better than it was when we moved in. I think I counted 18 broken windows when we first moved in!

Click to expand...

On the foam insulation: They usually bore lots of holes in the house to make it look like swiss cheese. They then start at the bottom and when the foam gets up to that hole they simply more up further. It works great and you'll love the effect. We did that this spring and already can see a huge difference. On a few chilly days and nights we found we did not want much of a fire. Then when we had a hot spell around Memorial Day that our air conditioners did not need to work nearly as hard. Yes, insulation rocks!

18 broken windows! Wow! Sounds like you had much work to do.

One more little thing. Once you start burning wood there is no need to burn only when someone is in the house. Also you can burn wood all night. Just remember that the trick is to have good fuel and know how to run the stove. The learning curve is small so you'll learn quickly. To learn, yes, do it when you have time, like on a weekend or two. Learn what it takes to stock the stove right and set the draft. The first year, check that chimney monthly and clean if needed.

Another good point on the cat stove and cleaning the chimney. We've had our cat stove 4 winters now. We've cleaned the chimney once to get about a cup of soot; no creosote. Yes, we learned that cat stoves can be real winners. Oh, we used to clean our chimney 3-4 times every winter....until we got the cat stove.

Have I mentioned there is no good reason to shy away from a cat stove?

Yes! So the cat has to be replaced every so often. Is burning less wood worth that? But then there is the maintenance issue too. They have to be cleaned every so often (perhaps after a cord of wood burned). Well, it takes me anywhere from 2 to 5 minutes to do that job and I do it only twice a year. Once during the annual summer cleaning and once mid winter. We will be replacing the cat next fall and will be trying the newer steel cat which are supposed to be much better. That is, they last longer and will light off at lower temperatures. So far all good reports on them.

If you'd like to know a bit more, you can always log on to Woodstock's website as they have lots of good information. That is www.woodstove.com.

WildOlive said:

firefighterjake said:

Random thoughts . . .


Ding. Ding. Ding. Fire started after the mother-in-law damped the fire for the night. Two things cause creosote in a chimney . . . although truthfully they're really two sides of the same coin . . . burning unseasoned wood and burning without enough oxygen . . . which can both result in a fire with lower temps . . . and lower temps will produce cresoote. I suspect, like Fossil, that what happened is over time of damping the fire down for the night -- as many of us were taught for eons -- creosote was formed . . . eventually the creosote caught on fire . . . perhaps from running the stove hot to stay warm on the -40 degree night

Click to expand...

So does this mean my idea of only burning wood during the day and using the oil furnace at night is a bad idea?

Also, I understand that a chimney that goes directly out the wall and then up the outside of the house is more susceptible to creosote build-up. But, say there was a chimney fire, would your house be less likely to catch, since the chimney is not inside it?

Sorry for the 20 questions, my husband laughs at me because I need to study things from every angle and research them to death before making a decision. Again, thanks so much for the help!

Click to expand...

Nope . . . it only means that with the pre-EPA woodstoves damping down the woodstove at night . . . combined with what was often unseasoned wood . . . in what is a standard practice would result in excessive creosote production.

In a modern stove you still don't want to just shut down the air control right away . . . rather most folks will tell you that it is better to bring the stove and chimney up to temp and then start to slowly shut the air control . . . I tend to shut my air control in quarter mark increments . . . waiting 5-10 minutes at each change to make sure the fire doesn't begin to suffocate . . . generally, with practice . . . in 20-30 minutes you can go from a woodstove with an air control open all the way to one that is completely or nearly completely "shut" -- "shut" in quotation marks since most stoves never truly cut off all air to the firebox and honestly how closed you can shut down the air control and still maintain a good fire (i.e. hot enough temps, sustained secondary, etc.) is dependent on a few factors, including the chimney.

Of course, I should add that there is no reason to not burn 24/7 . . . or just burn during the day. I know in my own case I planned to just burn on weekends and evenings . . . until I realized how inexpensively I was heating the home and how much I enjoyed watching the fire, listening to the fire snap and pop and how much I enjoyed the heat . . .

RE: Chimney. There are some folks who believe that an exterior chimney will cool down faster than an inside chimney . . . and this may be true with a masonry chimney. However, if you ask Backwoods Savage (and myself) we will both tell you that having an exterior stainless steel Class A chimney outside has been no problem -- with cooler temps producing more creosote, problems with drafting and problems in losing too much heat. Truthfully, I believe if you have well seasoned wood and run your stove and chimney at the proper temps (i.e. not too hot and not too cold, but in the Goldilocks Zone) you will have little to no problems with creosote in outside or inside chimneys. As for draft issues . . . non-existent except for early Fall and late Spring . . . which is a time when many folks have problems with reverse drafts. Losing the heat . . . my own feeling is I heat my house with my woodstove, not my chimney . . . and that's where most of the heat will be produced and radiate from -- the stove. A benefit of an outside chimney . . . installing a T-connection often means you can check and clean your chimney from the ground in less than 20 minutes.

Chimney fires . . . I suspect a chimney fire in an inside or outside chimney could be problematic as hot embers falling on to nearby combustibles on the ground, house, etc. is never a good thing . . .

Final thought . . . don't be ashamed to ask questions and research things . . . I once spent several days researching toaster ovens before making the $30 purchase . . . you are among your friends and fellow research geeks here. . . . and honestly, I like the fact that someone who is considering buying something that could potentially burn down their home is asking lots of questions.

fossil said:

WildOlive said:

...So does this mean my idea of only burning wood during the day and using the oil furnace at night is a bad idea?

Click to expand...

Got nothing to do with it, really. Once you have a properly installed woodstove and become comfortable with its operation and maintenance (which is minimal), you can use your heat sources in whatever way makes sense to you and keeps you comfortable (physically and emotionally).

WildOlive said:

...Also, I understand that a chimney that goes directly out the wall and then up the outside of the house is more susceptible to creosote build-up. But, say there was a chimney fire, would your house be less likely to catch, since the chimney is not inside it?

Click to expand...

Perhaps, but a straight-up interior flue is more efficient, will tend to collect less creosote, and is easier to clean. I've never had a chimney fire. I don't think it's all that difficult to avoid ever having a chimney fire. A properly installed clean-burning EPA certified woodstove, properly seasoned wood, avoiding burning anything other than wood in the stove, and regular inspection/cleaning (as necessary) of the flue should preclude ever having a chimney fire. Keep asking questions! Rick

Click to expand...

I usually agree with you Rick . . . but I have to say my outside exterior stainless steel chimney may perhaps lose some heat, but the Oslo is heating my 1,800 square foot house fine . . . there is very little creosote . . . and as for ease of cleaning . . . it's a pretty simple process to go outside, remove three screws on the cap, run the brush up and then reattach the cap . . . typically I can do this in 10-15 minutes . . . and clean up is pretty simple . . . I only put away my brush and tools and go inside to wash my hand since the little bit of creosote is now on the ground.