Do I have to worry about liability when selling my old Dutchwest?

"Sold as is, no expressed or implied warranties. Buyer assumes all responsibility for install and use." I think that covers ya.

Shawn

I think as long as you make it clear you're selling it "as is" in the ad and on any sales receipt that should cover you. It would be the same with any appliance.

shawneyboy said:

"Sold as is, no expressed or implied warranties. Buyer assumes all responsibility for install and use." I think that covers ya.

Shawn

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+1 sold my VC this spring and used that exact phrase. Get the buyer to sign, make copies, file it away.

-PB- said:

shawneyboy said:

"Sold as is, no expressed or implied warranties. Buyer assumes all responsibility for install and use." I think that covers ya.

Shawn

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+1 sold my VC this spring and used that exact phrase. Get the buyer to sign, make copies, file it away.

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+2 sold my 21 yo Vermont Castings Consolidated DutchWest Federal Design extra large FA288CCL Wood/Coal stove for $400 bucks
No problem!! Except sometimes I miss her fire. :-(

-PB- said:

shawneyboy said:

"Sold as is, no expressed or implied warranties. Buyer assumes all responsibility for install and use." I think that covers ya.

Shawn

Click to expand...

+1 sold my VC this spring and used that exact phrase. Get the buyer to sign, make copies, file it away.

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That's ridiculous.

If you are concerned enough about the stove to as the buyer to sign some half-ass waiver, then you should ask yourself whether it's right to sell it in the first place.

If someone buys it and hurts themselves, or their family as a result, will you sleep any better at night knowing they signed a waiver?

Do the right thing. Scrap the thing and call it a day. Don't be another one of these people selling damaged crap on Craigslist.

Biff_CT2 said:

-PB- said:

shawneyboy said:

"Sold as is, no expressed or implied warranties. Buyer assumes all responsibility for install and use." I think that covers ya.

Shawn

Click to expand...

+1 sold my VC this spring and used that exact phrase. Get the buyer to sign, make copies, file it away.

Click to expand...

That's ridiculous.

If you are concerned enough about the stove to as the buyer to sign some half-ass waiver, then you should ask yourself whether it's right to sell it in the first place.

If someone buys it and hurts themselves, or their family as a result, will you sleep any better at night knowing they signed a waiver?

Do the right thing. Scrap the thing and call it a day. Don't be another one of these people selling damaged crap on Craigslist.

Click to expand...

If he discloses what needs to be done he should have no problem sleeping at night.

Biff_CT2 said:

-PB- said:

shawneyboy said:

"Sold as is, no expressed or implied warranties. Buyer assumes all responsibility for install and use." I think that covers ya.

Shawn

Click to expand...

+1 sold my VC this spring and used that exact phrase. Get the buyer to sign, make copies, file it away.

Click to expand...

That's ridiculous.

If you are concerned enough about the stove to as the buyer to sign some half-ass waiver, then you should ask yourself whether it's right to sell it in the first place.

If someone buys it and hurts themselves, or their family as a result, will you sleep any better at night knowing they signed a waiver?

Do the right thing. Scrap the thing and call it a day. Don't be another one of these people selling damaged crap on Craigslist.

Click to expand...

1. OP stated he would urge buyer to have it installed per code and replace broken parts.
2. It's not a "half-assed waiver" It's as close to legally binding in court as you can get without a lawyer and...
3. It will protect him from some moron who hurts themselves or their family by improperly installing/using it.

There are plenty of people out there who buy "damaged crap" on craigslist cheap, repair it, and use it safely all the time.

It's not ridiculous, it's called protecting yourself from litigious morons who don't know what they are doing.

I agree with selling things as-is and making sure there is a record of it.
It can be as simple as having the statement clearly written in the Craigslist ad, and taking a screen shot of it.

Millions of items, many potentially dangerous, are sold this way on eBay.

Even if the stove is in perfect condition, it should be sold as-is, since a consumer has no way of providing a warranty and/or support and parts.

In reality, I think you have little to worry about. There is just as much chance you could sell a table...which the buyer takes home and then a leg of it breaks and it falls on their kid or dog.

In the case of this less-than-perfect stove, I would list it as-is and clearly say in the text "For restoration or for parts" and describe what you think it needs - heck, we used to sit old stoves in our sunroom for decoration and put a plant on them.

If, however, you truly think that the cost of restoration is very high....well, then I start to lean toward taking it into the scrap yard....OR, list it as for parts only, leaving out the idea of restoring it.

gogreenburnwood said:

I've searched for any threads about liability when selling an old stove, but didn't really find anything. I plan on listing my old Dutchwest on craigs list. I have the manual but wonder if I should write up some sort of disclaimer that I am not responsible for anything that happens when the stove leaves my property. My old stove is not in perfect working condition and in fact need the catalytic support system replaced which is the reason my combustors were breaking up after only 2 years. I will urge the person buying the stove to install it per code and if they want the stove to work as designed to replace the broken parts. I don't plan on asking much for it. Any insight from members that have sold old stoves would be appreciated. Thanks

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I am hoping to get about $400.00 for my CDW large convection and it has no warped or broken parts.. It does need the bypass rope gasket reglued and if someone is ambitious I am sure the seams could use a reseal with furnace cement but it burns fine as-is.. The S/S cat is only a couple months old and I have spare parts plus all the unused coal burning parts.. Plus I have a blank cooktop and an oval output casting unused as well.. Whatever I do VCBurner gets all the interam gasket mat'l for his Dutchwest.. I usually write this disclaimer when selling things of this nature.. Sold as-is with no warranties implied or otherwise stated.. I will explain the tiny issues that need attn. but it was running well when I removed it from the hearth..

Ray

I am hoping to get about $400.00 for my CDW large convection and it has no warped or broken parts.. It does need the bypass rope gasket reglued and if someone is ambitious I am sure the seams could use a reseal with furnace cement but it burns fine as-is.. The S/S cat is only a couple months old and I have spare parts plus all the unused coal burning parts.. Plus I have a blank cooktop and an oval output casting unused as well.. Whatever I do VCBurner gets all the interam gasket mat'l for his Dutchwest.. I usually write this disclaimer when selling things of this nature.. Sold as-is with no warranties implied or otherwise stated.. I will explain the tiny issues that need attn. but it was running well when I removed it from the hearth..

Ray[/quote]

very smart Ray,
what's the new stove gonna be?

-PB- said:

I am hoping to get about $400.00 for my CDW large convection and it has no warped or broken parts.. It does need the bypass rope gasket reglued and if someone is ambitious I am sure the seams could use a reseal with furnace cement but it burns fine as-is.. The S/S cat is only a couple months old and I have spare parts plus all the unused coal burning parts.. Plus I have a blank cooktop and an oval output casting unused as well.. Whatever I do VCBurner gets all the interam gasket mat'l for his Dutchwest.. I usually write this disclaimer when selling things of this nature.. Sold as-is with no warranties implied or otherwise stated.. I will explain the tiny issues that need attn. but it was running well when I removed it from the hearth..

Ray

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very smart Ray,
what's the new stove gonna be?[/quote]

Thanx the new stove will be the Alderlea T-5, hearth rebuild in progress and posted on the forum..

Ray

There was a thread on here a month or two back about a threat of a lawsuit in a stove sale. I'll see if I can find it and bump it--might be worth reading before you list.

Advice to make this explicit, and then document that you did so, should cover things. Also, keeping a few photographs of the stove before you sell it might be a good thing, too.

Being sued for selling "cracked" woodburner
https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/73619/

-PB- said:

Biff_CT2 said:

-PB- said:

shawneyboy said:

"Sold as is, no expressed or implied warranties. Buyer assumes all responsibility for install and use." I think that covers ya.

Shawn

Click to expand...

+1 sold my VC this spring and used that exact phrase. Get the buyer to sign, make copies, file it away.

Click to expand...

That's ridiculous.

If you are concerned enough about the stove to as the buyer to sign some half-ass waiver, then you should ask yourself whether it's right to sell it in the first place.

If someone buys it and hurts themselves, or their family as a result, will you sleep any better at night knowing they signed a waiver?

Do the right thing. Scrap the thing and call it a day. Don't be another one of these people selling damaged crap on Craigslist.

Click to expand...

1. OP stated he would urge buyer to have it installed per code and replace broken parts.
2. It's not a "half-assed waiver" It's as close to legally binding in court as you can get without a lawyer and...
3. It will protect him from some moron who hurts themselves or their family by improperly installing/using it.

There are plenty of people out there who buy "damaged crap" on craigslist cheap, repair it, and use it safely all the time.

It's not ridiculous, it's called protecting yourself from litigious morons who don't know what they are doing.

Click to expand...

I can`t agree.

If anything, the fact that a seller took the trouble to gin up a 'waiver' suggests that the seller knew it was dangerous, and suggests an intent to deceive - which is just how an injured buyer could use it. It's a huge amount of risk in exchange for a few bucks.

And to suggest any advice on this board is 'legally binding in court' is quite simply terrible. That sets this guy up for failure in the worst way. This is a place where amateurs trade their experiences with fire in a metal box, nothing more.

Do the right thing. Scrap it. The Chinese will send it back as something cheap and shiny.

Biff, I see your point, but how would this differ from selling a used car?
I've never heard of anyone selling an old car "as is" and subsequently being sued successfully for damages resulting from mechanical failure.

Den said:

Biff, I see your point, but how would this differ from selling a used car?
I've never heard of anyone selling an old car "as is" and subsequently being sued successfully for damages resulting from mechanical failure.

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The risk to reward exchange doesn't make sense to me.

It's way to easy for a buyer to blame the seller for damage from the buyer's use of the stove. And that the seller made signing a waiver part of the sale just makes it easier for the buyer to bring a claim. It implies the guy with information in the transaction hid the ball.

Check out these articles on used product seller tort liability.
http://www.niu.edu/law/organizations/law_review/pdfs/full_issues/30_2/Senagore R1.pdf
http://lawreview.byu.edu/archives/1981/1/chr.pdf

The law is all over the map - which tells me there is plenty of room for a pissed off buyer to make trouble down the road. And to the extent that the 1981 BYU article recites steps a used product seller can take to avoid liability for buyer injury, I caution that the law varies significantly from state to state and changes over time.

And to any knucklehead who has taken a recomendation from this site to throw a coat of stove black over a charred unit and list it, well, your future problems are not the result of a litigious society.

Biff_CT2 said:

Den said:

Biff, I see your point, but how would this differ from selling a used car?
I've never heard of anyone selling an old car "as is" and subsequently being sued successfully for damages resulting from mechanical failure.

Click to expand...

The risk to reward exchange doesn't make sense to me.

It's way to easy for a buyer to blame the seller for damage from the buyer's use of the stove. And that the seller made signing a waiver part of the sale just makes it easier for the buyer to bring a claim. It implies the guy with information in the transaction hid the ball.

Check out these articles on used product seller tort liability.
http://www.niu.edu/law/organizations/law_review/pdfs/full_issues/30_2/Senagore R1.pdf
http://lawreview.byu.edu/archives/1981/1/chr.pdf

The law is all over the map - which tells me there is plenty of room for a pissed off buyer to make trouble down the road. And to the extent that the 1981 BYU article recites steps a used product seller can take to avoid liability for buyer injury, I caution that the law varies significantly from state to state and changes over time.

And to any knucklehead who has taken a recomendation from this site to throw a coat of stove black over a charred unit and list it, well, your future problems are not the result of a litigious society.

Click to expand...

In todays overlitigious society I think it would be unwise to sell any appliance without a contract, no matter what condition it is in, especially to a stranger. It doesn't imply the seller is hiding something, it implies the seller is smart and protecting himself.

I agree the law is all over the map but there has to be something relevant more recent than 30 years ago. The first link is down.

Lets get back to the specifics of the OP. If he writes a contract stating condition of the stove, proper install recomendation, and replacement of broken parts, and lists it for parts or reconditioning, and language listed above, he should be fine. I cant see any lawyer thinking they have a case after the OP produces a signed copy of that contract. I think you would have a hard time finding a lawyer in general who would take a case for used property on craigslist. The merchandise is all buyer beware and they know not to waste their time.

Finally, I may have missed something but I never read anwhere on this site where someone was "recomending throwing a coat of stove black over a charred unit and listing it". In fact, I have read the opposite, members advising to make sure you list problems, condition of the stove, full disclosure, and most important... document it with a signed contract to protect yourself. Lets face it, some people are stupid and lazy, when they make mistakes they look to blame others.
I am in no way condoning selling a product without full disclosure, I'm saying protect yourself.

And to any knucklehead who has taken a recommendation from this site to throw a coat of stove black over a charred unit and list it, well, your future problems are not the result of a litigious society.

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It is good that you are trying to help/protect people here with your thoughts, but spitting on everyone (implying that the site and or the members offer methods to take advantage of others) is a rather poor way to deliver your message.

Rob

Are we about done here? I'd like to ask the OP, gogreenburnwood, (who hasn't posted since Post #1) whether or not he/she has gotten sufficient information/ideas to make his/her own call on this issue. This forum's forte is woodburning information/experience...not legal advice. Invariably these threads degenerate into amateur speculation and basically useless chatter and bickering. This one's definitely trending that direction. I'll probably just be shutting it down soon, but I'll wait a bit for the OP to have a chance to post one more time. Rick