Diesel trucks

Save your money they're all crap!! Buy a gas . Cheaper up front investment, cheaper fuel, and cheaper maintenance.
Federal DOT is aiming for regs on all vehicles over 10,000 GVW soon!

Sir around here in central diesel fuel is more than gas. I do not know if you have seen this before but it is a great video, Ken

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J-fCzBHVFTY

First, tell us if you have looked at the Ford F-150 engines new to the 2011 lineup. The 5.0L, 3.5L EB, 6.2L are all gassers, but as XactLEE stated, they may be the better overall buy for your needs.

XactLEE said:

Save your money they're all crap!! Buy a gas . Cheaper up front investment, cheaper fuel, and cheaper maintenance.
Federal DOT is aiming for regs on all vehicles over 10,000 GVW soon!

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My bonafides: I personally drive an '04 Duramax crew cab 4X4. I also currently operate two Ford F250s, both with 7.3 Powerstrokes.

Starting backwards, what DOT MAY do is legion; one can ruin one's life by such ifs and maybes. My maintenance for my '04 Duramax has been less than $700 these last 140,000 mi., or 1/2 cent per mile. Oil changes at 6 - 9000 mi., a couple of fluid changes in the final drives, two for the transmission, and one for the brake fluid, and three fuel filters. Repairs have been two front wheel bearings, one headlight, and a door lock actuator. Fuel has varied from a lot less than gas to a lot more than gas. The additional up front investment at that time was $4,000; deals and special offers still come up from time to time. None of the big three diesels can be considered "crap"; a FACT, not opinion, which is evidenced by resale values. My lifetime fuel average is 17.7 miles per gallon (I keep records), city, highway, loaded, empty, with trailers and without. I can, and frequently do run 65 mph at 19.5 to 20.5 mpg. I do not wish to talk about mpg in the city or at speeds over 70 mph, however.

Back to the original question, if you have no need for a 3/4 or 1 ton truck, you have no need for a diesel either. Ford and GM both have gas engines that give extraordinary fuel economy (Ram, not so much), have horsepower and torque we could only dream of 20 years ago, and can reasonably be expected to go 200,000 miles with proper care - and may go many, many more. The way to beat the poor history with Chrysler automatics is to buy the manual. The Navistar 6.0 was a disaster, the later 6.4 was not popular either, but better, and the new 6.7 is made by Ford in house. It is an unknown quantity at this point, but is supposed to have great fuel economy.

It really is a question of how you use the trucks. We regularly tow rather large loads and the diesel torque is a great advantage in drivability. The fuel economy is what makes them pay: we get about 12 mpg towing our trailers and the same truck with any avaiable gas engine will get around 8 mpg. While the four mpg difference does not sound like much, it is 50% more. 50%!.

Hehe
I have a friend who wrenches Fords and a friend who wrenches Chevys diesels and neither wood buy their own product. That says alot!
Their resale value is high because every 19 year old just outta school with a $10/ hr job wants one so they can put smokin stacks on it and dump tranny fluid in the tank.
Fed DOT regs for +10000 lb vehicles ARE in the works.NYS already has them in place as well as RV laws.

It looks like you are looking at used trucks judging by your Navistar reference. One of the better recent trucks was the 2006 Duramax/Allison combo. No emissions and a 6 speed (super tough) auto. I read the Fords can be managed but there are some horror stories out there. If I was going to buy a new truck tomorrow it would probably have the Duramax in it. The initial reports on the Ford in house engine are very promising, the Cummins a few bugs but not bad. I think it will take some time to straighten out the emissions issues like they did on the gas engines. I have read the forums for the various diesels plus we have them in the family and it looks like there are some growing pains because of the emission changes.

I like the diesel platform as well and think it is likely my next truck will be a diesel. If you do not need the payload of a HD truck, the above posters are correct that you should look at gas engine platforms. If you look at the specs on the new gas engines, they do make a lot of torque, just not down as low as the diesels where it would optimal. The new Fords are really exciting but unproven. I have read the reports on the small Duramax for the half tons, the small cummins in the Dodge etc. The latest I read was about a Cummins I4 being developed in the Nissan Titan with 350 ft pounds of torque the gets 30mpg highway (at a cost of $30 million to develop it!). But your going to have to wait for those platforms. I think the upcoming CAFE standards for half tons are in the ballpark of 30 mpg so (in the words of a Toyota Exec) the diesel platform will be a necessity.

When I purchased my truck in 2005, all the used diesels with 100k miles were $20k or more. So I bought a new 4WD 1/2 ton truck for $27k that is serving me very well. Consumer reports says all the new half tons are recommended with average reliability. Despite all the partison opinions out there, they should all serve you well.

As far as new goes and I apologize since this is not a thread about the new trucks. I drove a new F150 4x4 v-6 ecoboost and I would own it today but I am a few months away from not having any vehicle payments and did not want to continue down that road. I also have a 16yr old boy that will have a drivers license soon and would be driving it occasionally. The torque this truck has is unbelievable and to top it off it is a v-6. I turned the traction control off and it will light them up with little effort.

There has been a power and torque war in the diesel segment on the pickup trucks for quite a few years and it will roll over to the gas engines. There will be some pretty impressive engine options between ford chevy and dodge in the next 5 years. We have options that cut cylinders for efficiency.... twin turbos, direct fuel injection. It is going to be interesting to watch.

ChocoLab said:

Looking at 3/4 ton trucks; chevy, ford, and dodge. All three seem more than capable for my needs. Chevy duramax/Allison combo looks bullet proof, Cummins is great but I haven't heard many flattering comments about the Dodge transmissions, and Ford's Powerstroke had been a good power plant when Navistar (International) made it but now I understand it is a Ford produced engine. I like the all around interior/exterior of the Chevy, like the external styling of the Ford, and the Cummins in the Dodge. This will be a third car, used for firewood, boat towing and general transportation when a bigger car is needed. Anyone have any experience with the three? If GM would finally put their baby diesel into production and into the 1500, I'd go with that hands down. Probably don't 'need' a diesel, but want one.

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Not enough information here - Are you buying new or used?

A) The Duramax/Allison is NOT bullet proof.

2) The Dodge/Cummins with a manual tranny is pretty much bullet proof.

3) All the manual trannys are pretty good in terms of durability/reliability, and the autos are all pretty much suspect.

D) I have a 1999 Dodge 3500 Cummins-4x4-dooly-etc and with 136,000 miles on the ODO I have had zero problems with the auto tranny. However, I have spent about $4500 on various fuel pumps, so. . .

5) If you're buying a rig for wood hauling do yourself a favor and ignore any temptation you might have to buy a 1/2 ton

F) Lee makes a good point especially if you're buying used. There's TONS of nice, under priced gas powered trucks on the used market.

Drove diesels when I worked construction and I found them to be noisy and need parts as much as any gas engine truck.. I wouldn't like to pay for a 16 qt. oil change nor to replace 2 batteries instead of one.. Injectors can fail as do glow plugs and diesels can be hard to start in cold weather and work best if plugged in overnight in winter so that adds to your electric bill.. Seems that gas engines last as long as diesels with less maintenance costs and gas is cheaper than diesel..

Good Luck,
Ray

I'm not trying to talk you into or out of anything here, but the Ford V-10's are worth considering. They make good power and are very reliable. With the used market putting a premium on diesel, you could probably pick one up at a good price.

I agree - if you're not putting major miles on it, where the mpg payback will actually occur, I'd go with a gas 3/4 ton. The GM 496 (8.1L) can be had with the Allison trans, a great combo. The Ford V10 gets good reviews, and either of these would probably cost you thousands less than a diesel of the same year / condition. I'm getting ready to sell my diesel, and go back to gas for what I use it for - hauling wood and the occasional tow, visit to family, runs to lumber store, etc.; don't need what I got (though the built-in exhaust brake and new Dodge 6-speed auto are pretty sweet). If you post your price or year range we might be able to give better advice. My order:

GM 8.1 / Allison (2002-2007)
Ford V10
Dodge V10 or 360
Ford 460
Chevy 454

Notice no diesels on the list - had both, and while the diesel is just plain awesome, I get more payload with the gas, and it's cheaper overall to operate when I add the $2-4K difference in price over a lot of tanks of gas it makes a difference.

Ken said:

Sir around here in central diesel fuel is more than gas. I do not know if you have seen this before but it is a great video, Ken

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J-fCzBHVFTY

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I just watched all six videos. Pretty cool, but that log dragging test was meaningless to me. Once they got that log broke out and moving fast the coefficient of moving friction surely dropped dramatically, and the momentum was easy to maintain. I'd be much more impressed with a slow drag of one of the biggest logs up a very steep hill. Bet they wouldn't want us to see that, though. %-P

ChocoLab said:

Thanks for all the feedback everybody! I'm pretty positive a diesel would be overkill for my application, but I've settled for cars I didn't want so many times, this would be the first car I get that I 'want' in a long while and dont want to regret 'not getting enough truck'. Nobody ever wished they got a smaller TV or smaller saw, right? Looking for 2008-2011 (used) and lowish (<45k miles). Automatic transmission is a must as the spousal unit can't drive a manual despite REPEATED efforts on multiple cars. She would hardly, if ever, drive it but I'd really like the flexibility if she would need to drive it for any reason (car repairs or what not). Not going to be an everyday driver so I'd expect to have the truck for a long long time.

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Sweet. Sounds like you've already made up your mind. Now find the truck and pull the trigger.

Another vote for the Ford V10. I bought a used '00 F250 4x4 supercab longbed V10 auto about three years ago. At 300 or so hp and 400 or so lbft it has no lack of power. I get around 11 mpg around town. 15 on the highway, and down around 10 with 5000 or so pounds of trailer. It is quiet and only needs a 6 quart oil change. I wish it was a manual, but the wife refuses to drive one.

01 F250 4X$ V10 purchased used last year. Right now it is at 201,000 and runs like new. Not great MPG's but it's our firewood truck and only cost $2,000 so no big deal when a log hits it.

The Ford V10 is a pretty sweet option for the money. Picked up a 2000 F350 4x4 dually with 121,000 miles on it about a year ago for $3,250. Has a 12 ft utility bed, so can fit about a cord and a quarter in it. No problems hauling a full load of wet oak in the mountains; have also hauled loads of (20) nine ft. rail road ties up the hill (13.5% grade) several times. 100 degrees with the AC on! No overheating, plenty of power.

8 mpg... 13.5 if you drive it nice on the highway.

I kind of wanted a diesel; looked at a bunch of them, but the price differential was at least $3,500, sometimes a lot more on the same year/trim package. For no more than I drive it, the fuel efficiency savings would never have paid off. More torque is always fun, but I could not find a good 7.3 for reasonable money, wouldn't buy the 6.0 for any price.

The advice on this topic has been good, how can you beat a bunch of guys that know what they are doing by not asking your question here. My thoughts; if there is a need for the diesel consider it if not stay with gas. If you don't mind using stick get one, they work best when working a truck it has more control and will outcast an automatic if driven right. The economy has a lot to do with decisions these days too, consider that as well. Good luck!

ChocoLab said:

This will be a third car, used for firewood, boat towing and general transportation when a bigger car is needed.

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Our 11 yo 3/4 ton 6.0 gas Chevy serves this role except I also drive it to work saving the expense of keeping a 3rd car. If you get a trailer for firewood duty, a half ton will be fine and you can haul a lot more than you can put in the bed of a 3/4 ton. If I did to my truck what I do to my trailer, I wouldn't be able to drive it to work.

You know other than when it dips down real cold, like -20* and colder, I have never needed to plug my truck in. My Jetta though it doesn't like anything below about -10*... I think mainly because the battery is 6 years old.

raybonz said:

plugged in overnight in winter so that adds to your electric bill.
Ray

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I run the diesels cause they are much cheaper to run for me. I find deals on diesel all the time, like picked up 300 gals a few days ago for $2/gal.

Another vote for the Ford V10, or at least to give it a try. If diesel's what you want go for it, but one last comment. If you're looking 2008 - 2011, all three diesels will have emissions reduction equipment on them. 06-07 are the last couple years you could buy them without. You can expect similar mileage to a gas motor. My 2008 Dodge Cummins 6.7 is great for pulling, but I get about 12-14 mpg empty. Non-emissions equipped 5.9 versions from 2007 average 19-21. Huge difference. In addition, it's a lot more stuff to break. Look at the Ford 6.4 diesel flaming exhaust issues, Dodge 6.7 recalls and service bulletins (mine's been in the shop for recalls and emissions-related problems about five times in 41K miles). There is a huge premium for the diesel factor - higher up front cost, higher fuel cost, more time in the shop, more stuff to break. I would definintely get an extended warranty for a newer diesel, though I'm not usually a fan of them. Or hope the emissions stuff falls off the truck in your garage when it's out of warranty (I meant MAINTAIN the emissions stuff... removal is a no-no). One last item: No matter what you look at, if it's used HAVE A DEALER SCAN IT for chips. They can tell if it's ever been chipped, which could void any warranty you do get, and could cause you headaches down the road.

If I was in the market for a 2008 or newer truck, I would go with the Ford because it's the only large gas motor available, neither Chevy nor Dodge has a big-block V8 or V10, they're focused on higher-hp small blocks (6.0 GM, Dodge Hemi, etc.). IMO, if you want a 3/4 ton truck, go with the biggest gas motor you can find. The performance when you do use it feels so much better and more controlled. Like they say - no replacement for displacement. And you're buying the truck to do a job, not win the MPG awards.

As an example, my neighbor is in the hay business, puts about 50-80K miles per year delivering hay on a gooseneck from Cheyenne to Denver. He buys a new truck every year, and switched about two years ago from diesels to the Ford V10, says he's never going back. Got tired of waiting for a tow truck while trying to make money.

GL!

Hey, for what it's worth: I have an '09 F-150 Supercab (suicide doors) with the smallest (at the time) engine, the 4.6, and a 6.5' bed. I've had both the bed and my trailer loaded with fresh cut oak logs, all my gear, and three people (I'm 260 lbs. myself!) and it's performed like a champ. I get 19+ MPG using it 70% highway & 30% city, and it's super quiet and comfortable to drive. Anything bigger (the 5.0, 3.5 EB, etc.) would be gravy.

S

I had an '01 Dodge that needed an injector pump at <65000 miles. I was pretty disappointed, as I bought this truck to drive until it fell apart. For whatever reason, it would run perfectly on biodiesel, so I found a punk kid who would give me what I wanted for it (actually his daddy did), filled it up with B20 and sold it. I bought a V10 Excursion and haven't looked back.

If I was going to buy another diesel, I would bide my time until a pristine 12 valve Cummins or 7.3 Powerstroke came along. The big hp/torque numbers might not be there, but it's more than enough for what the average person does with a pickup. What you do get is the reliability, longevity, and fuel economy that one used to expect from a diesel pickup.

That sucks. My 98 has 218,000 on the stock VP44... (knock on wood now that I said something!)