Investing in a new furnace(s) - Advice and input needed

gitmo234 said:

Hello all!

After making it through a cold winter in a 2700 or so square foot house, 25 foot cathedral ceilings, poor insulation and only a fireplace insert until january, I'm ready to take the plunge and buy a furnace. First, this is my first home and I was unprepared for the cost of propane in my area, at over $3 a gallon, I have a 1000 gallon tank, and I filled it in january and started using it. It was gone, keeping my house at 68 degrees, in right about two months. I'm sitting on 300 gallons now.

In August I will commission as a 2LT in the Army guard, and will also get a chunk of change from my bank, which I intend to use part of it for home improvement.

I'm going to insulate my whole house (double insulating it), which will bring it basically to code. This winter I threw 4 rolls of insulation in my attic in areas that were uninsulated alone, above my living room. It cut my propane furnace run time to 12 hours a day from 14, almost immediately.

Second, I'm going to buy a new propane furnace. Mine is 10 years old at 90% efficient. I'm considering a modulating 98% efficient module. I'm also going to buy either a wood furnace or a pellet furnace. I'm set on two things for now. I want them to be indoors, and I want them to be "forced air" models. id they work right into my existing forced air easily.

Lastly, my HVAC guy basically told me that the duct work coming off my furnace is set up about as inefficient as possible and explains why i can barely feel air out of some of my vents upstairs.

Does anyone have any general advice or tips on any of the above?

Does anyone have recommendations, on models, of wood, pellet, or propane furnaces? Setups tips? anything?

I'm on my own here, and I'd like some sage advice. Currently if I ran my propane furnace only and kept my house at 69 degrees, it'd cost me over 6k a year to heat. No deal!

Chris

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If I had that situation I'd concentrate on firewood & leave the propane backup a distant 2nd. I would also buy a gasification boiler & use coils in the ducts so you have the forced air you want. There is the Kuma Vaporfire(I believe) that is reported to be clean burning & is a furnace. I would be leaning towards a Lambda boiler now as you just light them & walk away. Froling, Effecta are 2 real good ones. Good luck, Randy

I think if you are mostly going to burn wood or pellets I wouldn't be to concerned about upgrading the propane furnace. It would be a few years or more before you see any return on that 9% difference. I also like boilers like randy, but a add on furnace is probably a few thousand cheaper when said and done. At 6,000 a year you better do something sooner than later.

I also wouldn't worry about the furnace. Ours is 25 years old and it's 90% efficient. The woodfurnace was put in the home when the lp furnace was. Overall It has maybe 5 years of use and still looks new inside. Concentrate on firewood and get that drying. Airsealing will be just as important as insulation. With your tall ceilings and square footage it sounds like you will need a larger woodfurnace. I would look at the Max Caddy from PSG. It has a blower that will regulate itself based on temperatures in the plenum to keep even heat. It's also a secondary combustion furnace. We have the little brother the Caddy and its a very nice furnace. After adding insulation I would get a rough idea on the heat loss. That will allow you to size the woodfurnace correctly. When I did our ductwork, I tried to size everything correctly. Upstairs we were still cold while the downstairs was warm. After adding much needed attic insulation, the upstairs is now as warm as the down. If your ductwork isnt too small, the added insulation may correct some of the heating. You just don't want ducting that's too small for the furnace. You will never get the flow needed for heating. Good luck, sounds like your on track.

I would put my money first in insulation, second in more insulation and 3rd in even more insulation. Also, consider replacing your windows with high performance windows.
they call it "Deep Retrofit" these days.
Then I would start thinking about ... a wood/pellet boiler.
Without upgrading your insualtion you will still be heating your yard.

You will find in today's market there are alot of woodfurnaces that are very efficient. Maybe not as high as a gasification boiler but far greater than the furnaces of yesterday. I don't like pellets for the simple fact of supply and demand. I burn wood because we have a wood lot and are surrounded. You will need to look at the costs of wood compared to gas and pellets. There is a fuel calculator on here as well various places online. A few cases of Caulk will help some of the airleaks inside. If your walls have little to no insulation I would consider dense pack cellulose. It will insulate and airseal at the same time. If the ductwork runs through unconditioned spaces, it needs to be insulated. A tub of mastic and a brush will go a long way in sealing the ductwork which can account for huge pressure differences in the home and air infiltration. Sometimes you can find thermal drapes on sale. They seem to work from what I have seen. I would take it it's an old home? A woodfurnace sounds like it will be within your budget. A nice boiler system will go well over your budget.

I am heating 2700sqft. What kind of source do you have for firewood? Equiment so on and so? Skill set?

You would be in the 8-10+ cord range with the sound of the heating. Maybe less depending on the heat load. That would give you a basic idea on wood. Around here a load of logs will run around 100.00 a cord sometimes a little less. You would save quite a bit over gas or oil and be much warmer. If the wood is cheap enough it might just pay to buy it cut and split. If you go that route buy for the next year so it has time to season. Asking around and looking on craigslist will sometimes bring a good score.

gitmo234 said:

The house was built in 1973, but the last owner just didnt maintain it and added on without proper insulation. He owned a large construction company so I got the proverbial painters house, thats poorly painted. Except I got the contractors house that was poorly maintained and built on to.

As far as equipment, I have a chain saw and a shed. Last year the neighbors helped me with finding wood and giving me what they could. I'd help with the manual labor and collection and we'd divide it into thirds. Its a small town and I'm the relative outsider so I dont have sources for free wood yet, and no wooded lots. So, if I get wood I can get some by helping the neighbors, which results in about a cord or so, max, OR I can buy it from craigslist or local tree services.

I'm considering buying tons of actual logs to save $$ and cutting/splitting them myself. The neighborhood I live in is a close community, so we have a log splitter that I can use, we just chip in on repairs and service, divided evenly.

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When wood tight like that a really nice epa stove could be another option. Keep in mind with that sqft can use alot. My case 12 cords is not uncommon. epa stove 4.0 cuft box could be about 6 cords. Something to think about and a much easier set-up. I dont have the best furnace and also heat my hot water with lots of new insulation I have it down to 10 cords, but I start a fire about the first of Oct and let it go out about Mid May!

So If your burning this fall you better get your full boost on! Oh, that saw your back and the commiment better be a STRONG ONE! :coolgrin:

I also think you might want to look at a wood stove. Low $$$ input. located right should help. Then look into a few yrs ahead and install radiant staple up where you can, if you have a basement, you can access the first floor easily. If you got places that need new floors, look into a warm board type of radiant. Or low temp rad panels. And then put a well designed gassification boiler in, with storage. This will give you time to get a routine for putting up 10 cord of wood a year.


Insulate, caulk, spray foam,etc. You could start sealing the cracks up right now. I took the inside trim off of my windows and foamed 'em good. Made quite a difference. We also use the weather shrink wrap for windows, that stuff works. A hell of a ROI. And as you noted, curtains are a big help also.

I also think you should not replace the propane furnace. Least not now, see how the wood thing works out.

If your interested in efficiency, safety, and a greener tomorrow do some research on the Kuuma VaporFire 100. The VaporFire has been independently tested by Intertek yielding a 99% combustion efficiency. I've owned mine for 28 years and haven't cleaned out the chimney once as a matter of fact I don't even own a chimney brush. "No smoke means no dangerous creosote!!"

lampmfg said:

If your interested in efficiency, safety, and a greener tomorrow do some research on the Kuuma VaporFire 100. The VaporFire has been independently tested by Intertek yielding a 99% combustion efficiency. I've owned mine for 28 years and haven't cleaned out the chimney once as a matter of fact I don't even own a chimney brush. "No smoke means no dangerous creosote!!"

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Wood that is 99 percent? Wow that beats a gas fire place with no vent......I call BS!

From what I have read, I don't think the Kuuma would have enough output to heat his home. Whats the output of the Kuuma on high fire? This is from the website:

* Generally furnaces rated at 100,000 BTU per hour operate less than 1/3 of the time, with an actual heat output of less than 33,000 BTU/hr.
** Estimate. Could vary with different types of installation and wood.

If I may add my own experience with insulating my house... Mine was built in the 50's. Had cellulose blown in the walls and attics 2 years ago & made a huge difference. I also looked at windows since I have the originals. But I did some calculations and had some professionals come over to take measurement and quote and the more honest ones told me what I had figured... The impacts of new windows was not going to be that great (in my case anyway) and the ROI was going to be much too long. So I passed.

If you are looking at furnaces, pay a little more for an EPA rated appliance. The extra cost is made up by the fact you'll be using less wood, they typically vent into a 6" chimney or liner (vs 8" for non-EPA), longer burn time, less pollution & there is still some govt rebate program on these high-efficiency units. Make sure to measure your headroom (clearance to combustibles) and we'll help you figure it out. Advantage of wood vs pellet = Typically cheaper, easier access to fuel. Disadvantage, if nobody is home to look after it you immediately go to the more expensive fuel (Propane in your case). With some you can get even more convenience with a water pre-heater loop to heat your hot water tank. With many models you can have an oil burner or electric element to make it a stand alone furnace.

Pellet furnaces have the extra convenience of having a large hopper (for ex. the PSG Caddy Alterna has a 240 lbs hopper). You can dial in your level of heat (BTU) required for your house and like any 'standard' furnace it will keep your house at the same heat level. A thermostat will ensure the furnace shuts down or at the very least dial down to the minimum - therefore not waisting fuel. Think of them as standard furnace but you have to fill in the hopper from time to time. Depending on your usage an average 240 LBS load can last you 3 days or more. (depends on sq ft, insulation etc...). You can also put a hot water loop & electrical element on some of them. Depending on your area a bag of good quality pellets will be around $3-$4 per 40Lb bag.

Hope this helps.

Insulation is the highest priority, with the reduction of air infiltration (depending how bad it is now) comes in a close second. You can insulate all you want but if the air is exchanging through any number of leak spots..your money on insulation is rendered less effective. Get a blower door test done. Fine Homebuildng has exceptional articles on blower door testing and overall tactics for energy upgrades.

Thanks for your service LT. My only 2 cents is to search here to read discussions/opinions on an "indoor boiler" in an out building vs the same boiler in the home. You'll find two passionate camps depending on your priorities for boiler location and BOTH camps are RIGHT. I left my older propane furnace in place and it now serves as the backup or the quick warmup source for early mornings. Point is if you use the propane little, efficiency becomes less relevant. Good on you that Girlfriend is gone. Now find a reliable girl and boiler. BTW.... I'm of the NEVER in my home camp.

I would seriously look into the Kuuma at www.lamppakuuma.com I have seen them burn and it is amazing the heat you get out of it and how clean it burns! I bought one this spring and am looking forward to this heating season Good like and keep us posted on what you decide!

smokinjay said:

lampmfg said:

If your interested in efficiency, safety, and a greener tomorrow do some research on the Kuuma VaporFire 100. The VaporFire has been independently tested by Intertek yielding a 99% combustion efficiency. I've owned mine for 28 years and haven't cleaned out the chimney once as a matter of fact I don't even own a chimney brush. "No smoke means no dangerous creosote!!"

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Wood that is 99 percent? Wow that beats a gas fire place with no vent......I call BS!

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Everybody stop! We've been doing it the hard way.

Forget about the new furnace. Not worth it for another 9%, plus you're only going to get the advantage of the modulation during the shoulder seasons which is when a wood stove is doing its job.

Hello

A great method that is 100% approved to duct your heat is to get a Wood Pellet Stove with ducting connections in the back that are meant to be used for this purpose. They are called “Ducted Wood Pellet Stoves†and a common one is made by Ecoteck.

http://www.ecoteck.us/ducted-heat/

As you can see by the smaller red arrows at the top of the pic below, warm air can be moved to other rooms or upstairs with this wood pellet stove using the proper duct work and stove connection.


Description of “Ducted Wood Pellet Stoves†from Ecoteck in above link.

The Ecoteck wood pellet stove range also includes 3 ducted units for people who want more even heat diffusion throughout the home. Ducts conveys heat from one room to another and distributes it throughout the home, spreading the stove’s warmth over as wide an area as possible.

Models equipped with the air canalization use 2 pipes, 3.15 Inches in diameter, to service other rooms. Depending on the model, the delivery of the air for canalization can be in the top or in the bottom part.

In the Elena Airplus, the second fan for the air canalization, can be activated simply by pushing the button on the display.

In the Laura & Veronica, there is the possibility to adjust the front and back air delivery by adjusting a lever.

More info on Ecoteck Laura 11kW Ducted Stove
Ducted Heating with wood pellets
Wood pellets are one of the few truly environmentally friendly ways to heat. Ducted stoves have a two extra warm air outputs at the rear of the unit and these can be connected to aluminum ducts routed other rooms in the property. A simple mechanical flap controls the ratio of air coming into the main room compared with the air being diverted to the back. All wood pellet stoves require a 13amp electrical connection.

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Hope this answers your question, good luck

smokinjay said:

lampmfg said:

If your interested in efficiency, safety, and a greener tomorrow do some research on the Kuuma VaporFire 100. The VaporFire has been independently tested by Intertek yielding a 99% combustion efficiency. I've owned mine for 28 years and haven't cleaned out the chimney once as a matter of fact I don't even own a chimney brush. "No smoke means no dangerous creosote!!"

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Wood that is 99 percent? Wow that beats a gas fire place with no vent......I call BS!

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A lot of people are mixed up on the BTU's required to heat a home because oil and gas furnaces do no run steady hour after hour. If they did you'd spend $20,000/yr. to heat a home. As it is some people are spending over $4000/yr. to heat their homes. They cycle on and off. Your BTU needs are delivered intermittently. If your home is poorly insulated, or if for some reason you let it cool down, your oil and gas furnace would then run steady. Generally, a furnace rated at 100,000 BTU/hr. runs from 1/4 to 1/3 of an hour on the coldest of MN. days delivering about 30 to 40,000 BTU's/hr. to maintain a comfortable heat level for your home, i.e. 70 degrees F. Most people feel cool in their homes in between the on and off cycles of the oil and gas furnaces, therefore many people prefer wood heat because it's continuous.

Now, heating a home with our VaporFire furnaces is really special because they deliver very even continuous heat hour after hour. They don't smolder the wood and then blast the wood ( the two extremes) like other wood furnaces. Instead, its unique automatic draft system avoids these extremes with a continuous front to back burn pattern that allows the user to adjust the burn rate, which in turn varies the BTU output. In mild weather you use a low setting for 15-25,000 BTU's/hr., in moderate weather a medium setting for 25-45,000 BTU's/hr., and in cold weather a high setting for 45-60,000 BTU's / hr. It adjusts simply by turning the knob on the computer from low to high and anywhere in between. Most people never go above the medium setting all winter long.


Keep in mind that all wood has the same # of BTU's pournd for pound. The heavier more dense wood (oak, hickory, maple) have more available BTU's/piece than the lighter less dense wood such as poplar and pine, only because each piece weighs more. Every pound of wood that is 100% dry has approximately 8,600 BTU's /pound. Say for instance your home needed 100,000 BTU's/hr. to heat, it would take 11.6 pounds/hr. of 100% dry wood to heat it. Now, if your wood has a 20% moisture content, each pound of wood has only 6,880 BTU's in it (it's 8600 x .80). Then if your wood furnace is only 60% overall efficient, your BTU's would only be 4,128 BTU's/pound (that's 6,880x.60). This would result in a ridiculous amount of wood, 24.2 pounds/hr., to get the needed 100,000 BTU's/hr. In a 24 hr. period that would mean 576 pounds of wood needed for 100,000 BTU's/hr after hr. This would result in probably more than 20 cords of wood to heat your home for one winter. It makes more sense to say that most homes in the coldest of weather only use the 30-40,000 BTU's/hr and probably use 7-10 cords of wood/season to heat their homes. With our VaporFire furnaces that are 85% overall efficient and 99% combustion efficient most people use only 3-5 cords of wood to heat their home/season and that's what makes our furnace very special. To top if offf we also have the clean burn of less than 1 gr. emissions/hr.

lampmfg said:

smokinjay said:

lampmfg said:

If your interested in efficiency, safety, and a greener tomorrow do some research on the Kuuma VaporFire 100. The VaporFire has been independently tested by Intertek yielding a 99% combustion efficiency. I've owned mine for 28 years and haven't cleaned out the chimney once as a matter of fact I don't even own a chimney brush. "No smoke means no dangerous creosote!!"

Click to expand...

Wood that is 99 percent? Wow that beats a gas fire place with no vent......I call BS!

Click to expand...

With our VaporFire furnaces that are 85% overall efficient and 99% combustion efficient most people use only 3-5 cords of wood to heat their home/season and that's what makes our furnace very special. To top if offf we also have the clean burn of less than 1 gr. emissions/hr.

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Those are quite impressive numbers. Any particular reason they are not EPA certified?