Stove Recommendation: Large, drafty house; mild climate: PICs added

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Beowulf

New Member
Dec 24, 2009
211
SoCal Southern Sierras
Well, we are moving closer to buying a rather large, drafty old house in North County, San Diego. I would like to hear your opinions on "the best stove" choices given:

1. The place never gets real cold, something like high 20's at night, low 60's during the day is a rough winter day.

2. The house is a 1980's single story, with big rooms and a mostly flat roof; not much insulation. It's about 4,400 sq. ft. Don't really care about the bedrooms being warm, but like a cozy living room/kitchen.

3. The windows are currently really poor single pane, will be replaced with latest/greatest argonium encrusted government subsidized units when practical. No attic to add insulation to, so there will be serious heat loss through the roof.

4. Existing fireplace is in a living room, at about the mid-point of the house. Would most likely put the stove on a nice hearth with a straight pipe up through the flat roof. Existing fireplace is floor to ceiling stone and will make a nice back drop to the stove.

5. Wood source will most likely be dry, dead avocado wood, reasonably high BTU/cord.

6. Current heat is provided by 2 heat pumps, zoned. Worst case monthly electric bill, according to current owners, was $1,600 in the winter, with leaving the thermostat set kind of high.

I want a stove that will kick out some heat for the large space and maintain long burn-times. The BK King looks interesting, but isn't necessarily the prettiest stove in the world. The QF Isle Royale looks kind of interesting; love the old QF at the mountain place. The price is not the first consideration; the payback should be pretty short on about any woodstove that I would install, when compared to the current electric bills.

I have not bought the place yet, but there is a pretty good chance that I will, should a bank get reasonable on their price. Just trying to plan the budget for the needed renovations/upgrades; one of which will be a nice stove and hearth. Kind of vetoed the insert idea, after thinking it over and getting some good input here.

Your thoughts?
 
Personally, I think the BK King would be a bit overkill in your situation. A Princess may work fine, though. If you have cathedral ceilings I might go with the King though.

Aside from those I think any mid-sized stove would work Ok - anything with around a 2.5 cu.ft. firebox. Regency makes some great ones which are pretty affordable. Pacific Energy also makes a nice stove.

If you would prefer a larger stove with longer burn times maybe look at an Englander 30 or Regency F3100. If you don't need a lot of heat you can build a smaller fire.
 
Medium to large catalytic. Maybe the new Woodstock?
 
4,400 sq ft is a lot of house to heat! Are you planning on doing all the heating with one stove or are you going to try to put two stoves in? I don't say this very often but in my opinion with the size house you have I would be looking at putting an efficient outdoor boiler in and if you don't wan to go the way of the boiler consider a Blaze King or a PE T6 (only rated for 3,000 sq ft though).
 
First thing first... Based on your house definition, would not the money be better spend on insulation & house upgrade? Wood stove helps but it's like taking an aspirin for a cancer.

Don't get me wrong, I'm in the business of selling stoves. If you want to go ahead, central heating might be the way to go for what you need. Someone suggested an outdoor boiler, you may also want to look at EPA wood furnace as an add-on of full-fledged furnace. Some of them allow for an electric element and water pre-heater.

If you have money left over, you could use your fireplace and make it more efficient with an insert. Put the largest one you can fit into your opening. Alternatively, Regency makes a thing called an Hearth Heater which is basically a wood stove without legs that sticks out of your fireplace.

If it's a wood stove you want. For that size house and the burn time you want a catalytic might be the way to go. If you go non-Cat get a big fire box such as a Drolet HT-2000 - It's one of the biggest box in the market, built like a tank, comes with an heat exchanger and reasonably priced.

Edit: Scratch that. 4,400 is a massive house to heat especially if its not well insulated. I dont know of any wood furnace on the market that would do it for you. Maybe having 2 large one will but that's not practical. A stove even a big 'un, will only go so far. If money is the issue, buy the biggest one you can afford but keep in mind it's only providing secondary heat. You wont heat your entire house with it.
 
If we want to play that money is no object...a Max Caddy in the basement and an Equinox in front of the fireplace!
 
I agree money best spent would be in insulation and airsealing. I know around here electric heat will eat you up. If the heat is just from the heat pumps then the climate is mild. You say they are both zoned, so ducting a woodfurnace may cause some issues. But considering the square footage, insulation before or after upgrading, windows and heat loss in the ductwork it will require a large wood furnace. I would love the raw heat of a stove, but having a large home like that I think a wood furnace would better fit as far as heating needs are concerned. I would have a blower door test done on the home and see whats needed on that aspect. Its a little cost to help pinpoint those leaks and trouble spots and to figure where you stand. Getting an accurate heat load then will help determine whats needed as far as heating is concerned. Otherwise a stove that heats the spaces most used may be the way to go.
 
laynes69 said:
I agree money best spent would be in insulation and airsealing. I know around here electric heat will eat you up. If the heat is just from the heat pumps then the climate is mild. You say they are both zoned, so ducting a woodfurnace may cause some issues. But considering the square footage, insulation before or after upgrading, windows and heat loss in the ductwork it will require a large wood furnace. I would love the raw heat of a stove, but having a large home like that I think a wood furnace would better fit as far as heating needs are concerned. I would have a blower door test done on the home and see whats needed on that aspect. Its a little cost to help pinpoint those leaks and trouble spots and to figure where you stand. Getting an accurate heat load then will help determine whats needed as far as heating is concerned. Otherwise a stove that heats the spaces most used may be the way to go.

+1 on that...

I dont think there is a wood furnace on the market that is big enough for 4,400 Sq Ft. An EPA one anyway. I should know we make the Max Caddy and I would think this would be pushing it beyond its limit. Are you heating all of the 4,400 Sq Ft? or does that include an unheated basement. More info you provide, the more folks here can be of help.
 
+1 on Franks idea of an Equinox... that thing is bad-a$$... or maybe a high-efficency ZC fireplace that can be attached to heat ducts
 
Good people, thanks for the fast input! Some very good ideas bouncing around.

If we buy this place, rest assured that bucks will pour into windows and insulation, regardless of the ultimate heat source. Here are a few more tidbits:

1. House is in California, no basement, and it is all on one level, so it is massive and spread out.

2. Really only looking to make the central core of the home warm. We like cold bedrooms, which happen to be at both ends of the rather long rectangle floor plan.

3. Ceilings are like 12-14' in the main living areas.

4. Climate is really mild; don't have to worry much about pipes freezing or anything. Will probably go with one stove in the "great room" in front of or instead of the current fireplace; there is another fireplace in the master, but really can't imagine needing it for anything beyond ambiance.

By the way, a couple of sections of the house have an "attic area" that I had missed on my first walk-through. I got the joy of crawling around in the attic with a termite inspector today. Took a few pics that will provide some entertainment. I will post them when I get them off the camera.

The idea of a wood boiler is intriguing. Wish there was a basement to set up radiant floor heat!

Thanks again!

B
 
Three pics from today's inspection activity...

Front of fire place, view of chimney and firebox from the cold part of the attic (no insulation or air block.)

Amusing sticker on the chimney pipe, about clearances. Happened to be right at the point where it is in contact with a wooden plank...
 

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fireplace pipe is not installed correctly. In the 3rd pic, It is passing thru a wood floor with no firestop and wood right up next to it (while the sticker clearly visible on the pipe is stating 2" clearance to combustibles!) Since its a prefab fireplace, I would not venture trying to put a woodburning insert into it!
 
Am I wrong or does this look like a cheap single wall pipe, not a HT 2100 rated Chimey?

The house inspector should have pointed these things out my friend. I you intend on bidding on this house you should point it out to the seller and knock off a few grands of the asking price. Personally, I would rip that sucker out of there and buy myself the biggest EPA ZC I could find, Install the convection Kit to get heat in that room and a forced air kit to bring heat in your furnace duct work.

It's a shame there are so many of such installation in North America where all the expense went into the making the fireplace facing look great (stone works etc...) but then the builder installs the cheapest available wood or gas ZC tin box they could find in the market.
 
FyreBug said:
Am I wrong or does this look like a cheap single wall pipe, not a HT 2100 rated Chimey?....

Yep, cheap single wall pipe. I was kind of surprised, since most of the rest of the house was a little upscale for the decade it was built in (1980).

Have not had an inspector out yet; I just tagged along with the termite guy that the bank hired. If they accept my generous offer, then there will be a team of inspectors descend upon the place (roof guy, stucco guy, HVAC guy, general contractor etc.)

Still approaching the place with caution, since it is definitely a buyer's market out here at the moment. The place is loaded with "deferred maintenance" problems (poster house for "a fixer") but has the potential to be a pretty nice place with the right investment. The key is getting the price right on it, so there is room to fix it without having too much into it at the end, including my time!

I'm kind of looking forward to setting up the wood heat system the way I want it. Our other place had it already installed, so basically just use it and take care of it. If we don't end up with this house, I think we will end up with something similar that what I learn will apply to.
 
Are you sure it is single-wall? I doubt it would have that 2" clearance label on it if it was. It may be air cooled pipe which would be at least double-wall. Not saying it is properly installed, it isn't. But be sure to identify it correctly if asking for a price adjustment.
 
Franks said:
Good lord dont build a fire in that thing.

+1 Do I see the wood studs starting to char where the pipe touches it?

So get an NFI certified sweep or installer to write a report on this installation. From what we've seen you have a couple of choices with that fireplace. 1) Resign yourself this is just a nice stone wall with a black hole at the bottom. Dont start a fire in there. 2) I'm not a gas guy but you may be able to run a vented or ventless gas log set in there to make things look prettier. Wont get any heat from that however. 3) This is the most expensive option: Tear the works down and do it right. Unfortunately it will mean breaking down some of the stone work and you will have to patch it up after.

I still think a large EPA fireplace will solve many of your heating issues: 1) it will be efficient and with a convection kit provide a lot of heat for that room 2) get the forced air kit to recapture most of the heat from that EPA fireplace and dump that hot air in your furnace ductwork and get the furnace blower going on slow to distribute the heat throughout the house 3) it will look really nice...
 
In a big barn like that, I think you need one of these.
 

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Hello friends! Here is an update on this project:

1. Bank sold the loan on the 4400 sf barn to another bank while we were negotiating. They upped the price, we walked away.
2. While all of that fine haggling was going on, a different house listed that could actually be purchased with money. We bought it.

Specs: a. built in 1990, so about 10 years newer than the one under discussion.
b. R30 attic insulation, dual pane windows, generally a little more weather tight than the house we sort of wanted.
c. Large brick fireplace in the family room, opening 40"h x 24"w, masonary chimney liner. Just had it cleaned by a local sweep.
d. Single story house, about 3,600 sf.
e. Propane heat from dual central heat furnaces in the attic, zoned pretty well. Have not run it yet, this season, hope not to.
f. Put electric radiant floor heat in a couple of critical areas (kitchen/breakfast area, master bath.) Run it kind of low and it makes the place kind of comfortable for about $150/month in increased electric cost.


So the dilemma is still similar. I would like to get some heat out of the fireplace for the family room. I think the stove idea is getting vetoed by the wife because of the floor space/clearance/aesthetics. Maybe an insert is the best compromise in efficiency and aesthetics, maybe another solution?

Has anyone here had any experience with the "heatilator" type heat exchangers ( "C" shaped tubes that sit in a standard fireplace and pull some heat out?) I gave one to a former father-in-law about 30 years ago; he loved it. My concern is how much they might cool the flue gases and cause excessive creosote deposits in a rather large chimney.

Just burnt the first big armload of wood in the fireplace. Looked real pretty, but did not do much for the overall temperature in the room. Went from 67.8 deg to 68.2 over the course of a couple of hours. Very romantic, but useless on a cold cold 49 deg California night.

Note: Just for clarification, this is a different house than the one in the pics, posted earlier. I would not have lit a fire in the fireplace shown in the photos on the other house that we did not buy. The sweep said the chimney on the house we did buy is in great shape from a safety perspective, at least.
 
If you are looking for a stove that's easy to load and easy to run, look at the Equinox. I've been thrilled with mine and it's a real looker.
 
There area a few things that you can do with a fireplace to get a bit more heat out but ultimately you are pushing a rope. Heat tubes, blowers etc. all help produce a bit more heat but they don't solve the main issues with fireplaces. You will still go through a lot of wood, and the open fireplace still sucks all the warm air from the room and out the flue. IMO I lost nothing of asthetics with my insert. With the large viewing glass on most stoves you can still get the ambiance of burning and get some heat out of it at the same time.
 
Hmmm. Throughout this discussion I keep coming back to this line...

high 20’s at night, low 60’s during the day is a rough winter day.


I know everyone's comfort level and climate is different, but at least where I am any day that its sunny and the high gets into the mid 50's solar gain alone is usually enough to maintain reasonable room temperature. I wonder if you might only need a short to medium overnight burn to hold the house temps you want until the sun comes up?

If you go too big you might even find that the stove doesn't cool off fast enough in the morning and things overheat when it warms up to 60 outside?

Here in the North the rule of thumb always given is to look at the stove sq ft rating and go one size bigger (or more as you go farther north or have less insulation). You may be able to stick to the ratings or even go one smaller?
 
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