Code violation - depends upon where you live?

In New York, yup. Depends on your local codes. Why are you asking?

Vent free are legal in most of the country - there were quite a few hold-outs, but the gas (vent free) lobby spent a LOT of time and money overturning those!

I think they are still illegal in Canada...??

Don2222 said:

Franks said:

In New York, yup. Depends on your local codes. Why are you asking?

Click to expand...

Thanks for asking.

My point is that we can not judge on this forum in a general sense what may be right or wrong for any one particular installation for a particular locale.

What works well in one case maybe totally wrong for another case in another location.

Click to expand...

So you were just trying to make a point? The weather that lousy where you are?

Vent free is illegal in California. There is code and there is your own common sense and comfort level. Even if they were legal here, I would feel more comfortable with a direct vent unit where I knew if there was any possibility of unburned gases they would be venting outside the house, as well as not using up oxygen in the room. I used to have a Rinnai unvented heater and had to trust an oxygen sensor to shut it down. Also, why are they illegal in some locations and not others? The air you breath is the same.

Go to chimneysweeponline.com then go to libraries, then unvented. I'll see you in about 48 hours. Lots of good reading.

Gary

Wow! Drilled down to http://www.chimneysweeponline.com/library.htm and found this title, Vent Free Gas Fireplaces and Why We Don't Sell Them. More good reasons than I had ever realized for not going ventfree. But my instincts already told me that.

Vent free has been illegal in Australia for quite some time now.

It is legal in NY but you have to open the window, makes a lot of sense!

Have to agree with some of the posts.

Why on earth would anyone set up any appliance in your home to kill your family in their sleep just because "code" allows you to do so?

Keep in mind "code" is a set of absolute minimums, ie; you can do no worse/less than this.

Seldom if ever do I recommend that anyone just do minimum code, for a small percentage more one can do far better than just the minimum.

Why take chances? Especially as in this post with people's lives!

Unless of course one is trying to prove Forrest Gumps mother right...you know "stupid is, as stupid does!"

Don2222 said:

Franks said:

In New York, yup. Depends on your local codes. Why are you asking?

Click to expand...

Thanks for asking.

My point is that we can not judge on this forum in a general sense what may be right or wrong for any one particular installation for a particular locale.

What works well in one case maybe totally wrong for another case in another location.

Click to expand...

We are all humans using the same things that our bodies require to exist no-matter where we live or what code dictates. Code is minimum! Some areas have a larger quota for human ignorance in accepting a person to place their lips on the tailpipe of a running car and being required to breath normal.
My 2 cents.

The uninformed/distorted opinions about unvented appliances on this site never stop amazing me. The only reason any of these appliances are illegal anywhere is because those making the rules don't understand the issue any better than some do here.

If you bother to learn about them, you'll see that they are very good at burning gas at 99.99% efficiency, meaning there is essentially zero carbon monoxide being made. I have a very accurate carbon monoxide detector that reads zero when held next to my ventless heater. So assuming good working order, there is zero danger.


And what if it malfunctions? That's the reason there are requirements for make-up air and spacing/sizing regulations for each installation. As well as a recommendation for a room carbon monoxide detector, which everyone with any sort of gas appliance should have anyway.

And there's a low oxygen sensor on every unit, to boot.

Still nervous? Let me ask you: What about all the people who cook with gas stoves and gas cook tops? Those are less efficient and definitely put carbon monoxide into the room. Why aren't you lobbying for gas stove and cook tops to be banned? The average family is cooking a couple hours total per day, after all.

A properly sized and installed ventless heater is perfectly safe. The only real concern is moisture accumulation, which is not a true safety issue.

http://www.chimneysweeponline.com/hoconsrp.htm

http://www.chimneysweeponline.com/hovfco2.htm

Interesting reading about vent-free and how it is not good for you

dave11 said:

The uninformed/distorted opinions about unvented appliances on this site never stop amazing me.

If you bother to learn about them, you'll see that they are very good at burning gas at 99.99% efficiency, meaning there is essentially zero carbon monoxide being made. I have a very accurate carbon monoxide detector that reads zero when held next to my ventless heater. So assuming good working order, there is zero danger.

Click to expand...

If you bother to learn that your efficiency #s only represents that you have 0 flue temp loss as its all dumped back in the room. Nothing related to emissions.
ESSENTIALLY ZERO CO HAAAA HAAAAA give me a break. Your gas stoves comment isnt even worth a reply if someone is that narrow minded.. I will give you a hint........ think of possible scenarios............. Have a good sleep.

I still haven't figured out why an unvented decorative or infrequently used fireplace/stove is a bad idea. I'd have no problem smacking the OP's stove in my house for the occasional warm fire before bed. Why are people so bipolar with things? Some say absolutely not, some say absolutely yes, I say, I wouldn't run one full time as a primary source, but short term burns and used in the right circumstances, could be a useful and safe appliance.

I also agree that if I'm cooking on my gas stove/oven for thanksgiving I'm putting out more that the 25k stove listed above. Nobody freaks out about that!

Seriously? You have not figured out why having the toxic byproducts of combustion present in a home for the occupants to inhale is a bad idea! Really?

BTW the gas stove you refer to is required to be vented to the outside....ever wonder why?

Yes I know, I know there are plenty of people (idiots) who DIY it & dont install proper venting. When they get lucky (not a skill & not by design or planning) & dont kill their family, they then jump on the computer & tell the world it is safe to do as they have done because they are sure no one will die. They will even proudly state that no one in their family has died (yet).

Remember what Forrest's mom said about people like that.

Frozen Canuck said:

Seriously? You have not figured out why having the toxic byproducts of combustion present in a home for the occupants to inhale is a bad idea! Really?

BTW the gas stove you refer to is required to be vented to the outside....ever wonder why?

Yes I know, I know there are plenty of people (idiots) who DIY it & dont install proper venting. When they get lucky (not a skill & not by design or planning) & dont kill their family, they then jump on the computer & tell the world it is safe to do as they have done because they are sure no one will die. They will even proudly state that no one in their family has died (yet).

Remember what Forrest's mom said about people like that.

Click to expand...

My gas oven is required to be vented to the outside? Bullshit.

It is here for sure, called a "range hood" that is required to be vented to the outside.

Even if code is foolish enough (way behind the times) to allow someone to install a gas (fossil) burning appliance without a vent where you live, why on earth would anyone want to do so?

The only possible excuse would be to save a few bucks. That's an awful reason to put the occupants of a home at risk. Why would anyone do that? Makes no sense. Hence the reference to Forrest's mom.

Unless of course I am the one who is out of touch & their is some (unknown to me) benefit to inhaling the exhaust of a combustion process.

Frozen Canuck said:

It is here for sure, called a "range hood" that is required to be vented to the outside.

Even if code is foolish enough (way behind the times) to allow someone to install a gas (fossil) burning appliance without a vent where you live, why on earth would anyone want to do so?

The only possible excuse would be to save a few bucks. That's an awful reason to put the occupants of a home at risk. Why would anyone do that? Makes no sense. Hence the reference to Forrest's mom.

Unless of course I am the one who is out of touch & their is some (unknown to me) benefit to inhaling the exhaust of a combustion process.

Click to expand...

Well put/said.

No, I guess you have changed my mind. There is no acceptable level for any pollutants in the air I breath.

Thanks North.
Sorry if I sounded a little hot under the collar, it's just that alot of the the stuff in the DIYish forums makes me cringe.
After 30+ years in the trades I sometimes hope (foolishly) that people get it & just build it/do it right the first time.

Seriously folks...every course I & any other trades person takes is available through the faculty of extension at your local technical institute....for me that's SAIT (Southern Alberta Institute of Technology) & NAIT (Northern.....).
I am not saying nor do I expect you to take them all.
However when you consider the cost of fixing some of the serious errors I see in structures of all types every day....well the $500.00 cost of a course that applies to what you want to do, be it air & vapor barrier, structural framing, electrical, plumbing or whatever you are interested in trying at home, is very very cheap.
Likely about 1% or so of what it will cost to have a pro come in & fix the mistakes you made because you simply did not know.
Hard to find a better bargain than education.

Simply put. Unvented appliances of any type, [heating or cooking] are allowed to be sold and used in the USA for one reason and one reason alone.

Money.

Who padded whose pocket. What builders association twisted the arm of what politician. What manufacturer produced "documentation" that their product was safe.

Frankly speaking, there is no good reason to install an unvented appliance of any type anywhere. CO is only the most noticeable gas emitted by the combustion process. There are many other byproducts of combustion that are very bad for you. It's just that CO kills you rather quickly which is generally deemed to be a bad thing so it's regulated and supposedly dealt with. Other things that kill you more slowly and in a less dramatic fashion are acceptable.
And yes, any home with a gas fired cooking stove should have a hood vented to the outside of the structure. Why are there range hoods that are unvented? See the comment above regarding Home Builders Associations.............just sayin.

One other small detail and it should stick in everyone's head..........always remember that "code" is the MINIMUM standard to which anything can be built or designed.

Yeah I always get, they must be safe because they are allowed to sell them! Well hello, you can buy cigarettes and alcohol too and are they good for you?

I quit selling them about 6 years ago and it was the best thing I did. No more calls about smells and wanting me to check them out.

Also I believe they don't test them with logs and that's another problem. The fiber logs as they deteriorate, the fibers get airborne and guess what? You breath them. When your logs break or start to deteriorate your to dampen them with water and put into a plastic bag and seal tight so no more fibers are in the air.

The same people that say they are safe are the ones that drink only bottled water

Gary

Garjan111 said:

Yeah I always get, they must be safe because they are allowed to sell them! Well hello, you can buy cigarettes and alcohol too and are they good for you?

I quit selling them about 6 years ago and it was the best thing I did. No more calls about smells and wanting me to check them out.

Also I believe they don't test them with logs and that's another problem. The fiber logs as they deteriorate, the fibers get airborne and guess what? You breath them. When your logs break or start to deteriorate your to dampen them with water and put into a plastic bag and seal tight so no more fibers are in the air.

The same people that say they are safe are the ones that drink only bottled water

Gary

Click to expand...

Do people say they are safe, or safe enough? I just feel that the people who are whining about the health risks are likely hypocrites that do about 1000 other poor things to their bodies. Eat poorly, smoke cigarettes, live in metropolitan areas so polluted that you can't see half a mile away... You get the idea...

If you are a health nut and you minimize ALL risks in your life, then go ahead and rant about what a bad idea it is, even in moderation, used infrequently and in a 150 year old drafty house.