Portage & Main optimizer

KarlK said:

There was some previous posts asking about the portage main optimizer. I have one and would lie to say so far Im very impressed with it.

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Don't LIE to me, Man!! >:-(

But seriously, pictures and more details needed now.

How many Ben Franklins did you drop on the unit only?

Looks complicated to operate . . .maybe if we saw some pics of your wife running it we'd get some idea of how it operates

That Scotch firetube design sure looks like a winner. Any idea what your exit temps are like? Nice boiler! Randy

I,ve gotten a couple quotes on this boiler they are all around 12k. I was in a big debate eirlier this week and was going to buy one., but had alraedy bought the tanks for a pressurized setup. Still trying to make up my mind.

KarlK,
Any interest is expanding your opinion and experience on your P&M? I'm considering a P&M optimizer for my home I will be building next spring. We don't have all the details nailed down yet but it should be well insulated and around 2,500 sq. ft in central NH.

I'm interested in how much wood you went through last year? WHat do you think of the unit after having it for a year now? Has it been reliable? Do you burn all sorts of wood or just nice dry hardwoods? How often do you have to load the firebox each day in the dead of winter? Or how about in warmer weather like 50-60j?

Any other info is really appreciated. It's hard to find many people with real world experience on the P&M. I also read some of your threads on forestry forum. Thank you.

FWIW for the money being discussed 10 - 12 K. You are into most if not all of the existing high end boilers that have been around for decades & that will be more efficient than any OWB. If it were me I would not consider an OWB in that circumstance (equal money). As there is just no way an appliance that sits outside exposed to the elements on all sides can come close to the efficiency of a boiler in a conditioned space. Think about how much wood anyone would waste just heating up a tank of water that sits outside exposed to rain, snow, wind etc. A losing battle with mother nature for sure, that will have any owner burning far more wood than necessary to heat what you want to heat....your buildings. There are several members who have used both an OWB & a high effiency boiler, ask them I dont think you will get a single one saying choose the OWB. The OWB's have lost their only advantage (price) as they have always used far more wood at least 2X more than a high eff boiler given an apple to apple comparison of the buildings being heated. So you would be left with paying the same money for the priveledge of cutting, splitting, stacking, feeding & clean up after more wood. Cant see how that is a win for you.

My neighbor bought an Optimizer last fall, by spring the Scotch Marine heat exchanger was clogged solid with black crud!

I agree with karlk on cleaning the boiler, i do a cleaning every Saturday morning without fail and havent had and problems with clogging, only fine dust n all tubes, you can arrange the firebrick in the lower chamber to be able to get that dust out easier, and i believe there is a adjustment to the nozzle also that is more effecient, will keep you posted on that

Thanks for the good info guys, I love the idea of the OWB for many of the reasons Karl stated. I also understand you keep your house fairly warm in the winter correct? Close to 75 degrees?

Do they offer a dual fuel option for the optimizer? I am interested in dual fuel for when we go on vacations in the winter time for a week or two.

I understand that the units themselves are expensive and an OWB isn't for everyone. The advantage there is if you cut and split your own wood (and enjoy the time in the woods on a cool fall day) then after a few years you are heating your house for free. Even with a super efficient oil fired burner, your still going to be buying oil.


For you guys with the P&M, do you think it would be a problem to stretch the cleaning out to every 3 weeks?

In the warmer months, can you load once a day and still be okay?

After burning for one year, i wouldnt go that long before cleaning, i suppose you could, but i dont. As far as DHW i havent hooked that up yet, its in the works.

The reason I asked is because I work a 3 week schedule, and I don't think the wife will want to clean it out too much. I'm asking a lot just having her load it while I'm away

If you rearrange the firebrick in the lower chamber it will make for ALOT easier cleaning so as too keep the exchanger tubes clear, the fine ash builds up in the back of the chamber and then a possible plug up of one or more of the vertical exchanger tubes.

I considered the P&M gasiifier but went with an Econoburn in a Boiler room attached to my Pole Barn. One of the main tipping points for me was Being able to go away in the winter. My lines are below the frost and come up in heated space on both ends. I can shut down and travel if I want in the the winter without worry.

I do agree though I would not want the indoor boiler in my home. It is fine in the shed designed for it, but not in my house for all the reasons mentioned above.

gg

Goosegunner,
Could you tell me a bit about how well your Econoburn works for heating your pool? How does it heat the pool? My wife would like a heated pool in the future in our new home, although this will be YEARS down the road, but I am interested in how it works?
Do you find you use a lot more (like a really lot more) wood when heating the pool?

I like the P&M optimizer based on what I've seen, but I'm not finding anywhere that they come in a dual fuel model?

It works really well to heat my pool. The trick is balancing the boiler flow vs pool flow so you don't cool the boiler but yet still get the most out of the capacity of the boiler. It should work even better when I finally get my 1000 gallon storage on line.

As far as wood use you have to be realistic about pool season. It takes about 120,000 btus to raise my pool temp one degree. Today I raised my pool from 77 to 86 degrees. with about 1.5 loads of wood in the econoburn, which is not much wood. I live in southern Wisconsin and use the boiler to bring it back to temp after cold spells or before parties.

Heating the pool was one more reason I wanted it in a shed. No sense trying to cool my house and have a boiler cranking away in the house to heat a pool.

I will also tell you that It burns absolutely clear from the stack when heating the pool.

gg

Piston said:

Goosegunner,
Could you tell me a bit about how well your Econoburn works for heating your pool? How does it heat the pool? My wife would like a heated pool in the future in our new home, although this will be YEARS down the road, but I am interested in how it works?
Do you find you use a lot more (like a really lot more) wood when heating the pool?

I like the P&M optimizer based on what I've seen, but I'm not finding anywhere that they come in a dual fuel model?

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I like most on this site are do it yourself type people. My in ground pool was also a project that I did. It could be in your yard sooner than you think if you install your own.

I would be more than happy to answer any questions on the phone if pm me some time I could give you much more detail.

gg

It's pretty easy to determine how much wood will be used to heat a pool, hot tub, etc. In the example given of 120,000 btu's to raise a pool 1F, that would take about 23 lbs of wood, or from 77F to 86F, about 210 lbs of wood. The assumptions are: 1) water to air btu loss was included in the example; 2) well-seasoned wood was burned (20% MC); 3) stack temperature was 400F; 4) boiler efficiency was 85% (wood gasification boiler: Tarm, Eco, etc.).

Another way to tackle this is based on the gallons of water in the pool. # of gallons x 8.34 = btu's needed to raise temperature 1F (assuming no water to air btu loss). Then the wood needed to do this, based on assumptions 2, 3 and 4, is: btu's / 5150 = lbs of wood for 1F temperature rise.

This of course is approximate, as wood seasoning, stack temperature, and boiler efficiency may vary.

Incidentally, for me 210 lbs of wood translates to about 6-7 days of heating my 1500 sq ft shop in the dead of winter, -5F to +5F outside temperature.

To tell you for sure I would have to weigh my wood. There are other factors that contribute or steal heat from the pool. Sun, wind, cover.

Yesterday was the first time used the pool heater since the June. So wood has not been an issue for me.

gg

P and M guys....do you split your wood as small as us indoor gasser guys?

Also, couldn't you use a stack temp gauge for figuring out when to clean? Thats how I determine my cleaning times. Boiler clean, stack is about 400/425. When it goes to 550/600 I clean the tubes. Just a thought.