Real Time Help: Excel Installation Issues?

  • Active since 1995, Hearth.com is THE place on the internet for free information and advice about wood stoves, pellet stoves and other energy saving equipment.

    We strive to provide opinions, articles, discussions and history related to Hearth Products and in a more general sense, energy issues.

    We promote the EFFICIENT, RESPONSIBLE, CLEAN and SAFE use of all fuels, whether renewable or fossil.
Status
Not open for further replies.

turbocruiser

Feeling the Heat
Jun 10, 2011
329
Rocky Mountains Majesty
Folks, I'm sorry to request this real time help but we are finally actually installing our stove (chimney is in, stove is sitting in place and we are waiting on the stovepipe soon) and I think that I'm seeing something in the way the installer installed the Excel chimney components that isn't the way the installation instructions advise. I desperately don't want to jump to erroneous conclusions especially as I am no expert in these things but here is an excerpt from the ICC Excel Installation Instructions:

"Fasten the flue extension (EX) to the first length of chimney with the
three screws provided. Place the first section of chimney into the
support with the flue extension protruding through the hole in the
support. When installing additional sections of chimney line up the
vertical seams to insure that the pre-punched screw holes line up with
the slots in the outside casing."

So I'm seeing two things that "look" differently to my non expert eyes:

1st: It looks like the installer took the flue extension, placed it in the square support box, placed the first length of chimney into the flue extension and then screwed through the bottom of the square support box through the flue extension and then into the first length of chimney. I can clearly see the three screws going vertically through the bottom of the square support box and also at least into the flue extension if not into the first length of chimney (if those three screws are actually long enough) AND I cannot see any screws horizontally in that area from above when I'm looking directly down into the square support box. This makes me think that they didn't really do exactly what was in the instructions? But I basically don't know if this matters any at all?

2nd: The vertical seems definitely don't line up all up the length. They stagger throughout the chimney (20 feet) I cannot tell whether the installer simply rotated the lengths until they ultimately still lined up with the pre-punch holes or if the installer simply screwed new holes with the self tapping sheet metal screws. I also don't know if this matters any at all?

So far these people seem superb, with wonderful experience and expertise so I'm so not trying to "doubt" them but I basically rely on word-for-word interpretation of our installation instructions and these two things seem somewhat different. I thank you all in advance for any advice here and sorry again to "Real Time Help" this thread.
 
Lineing up the seams is not that big a deal. The EX should be screwed to the first length, sounds like they just did a compression fit and that ain't right.
 
humpin iron said:
Lineing up the seams is not that big a deal. The EX should be screwed to the first length, sounds like they just did a compression fit and that ain't right.

Okay, that's good about the seams that don't align but very very bad about the support box! Wow my heart's racing here. In my case the only way to fix this (as far as I can imagine) is to carefully remove all the silicone sealant at the top of our chimney chase, push the four lengths of chimney up enough to remove the support box (we cannot drop box down because of the way the box connects to things above) and that loose first length of chimney, then screw the extension into the first length of chimney and then put that assembly into a new support box ( I don't want to have the three holes there forever ) and then attach the support box and everything else as it is now???

Wow o wow do I dread having this conversation with the installer! Do you all have any advice about that? Thanks.
 
The installer may be professional, neat and good workmen. That's great. If they are, they should not mind discussing the installation with you, especially if mis-installation voids the pipe warranty. I'm wondering if the installer has worked with Excel before. Can you grab a quick shot of this and post it?
 
BeGreen said:
The installer may be professional, neat and good workmen. That's great. If they are, they should not mind discussing the installation with you, especially if mis-installation voids the pipe warranty. I'm wondering if the installer has worked with Excel before. Can you grab a quick shot of this and post it?

Yes, I talked with the stove shop owner/operator first thing today. He was perfectly polite and perfectly professional. He understood right away what was wrong as well as how to fix the problem. He apologized for any inconvenience and told me that he AND his installer would be back tomorrow to fix things. The plan at this time is to remove the silicone sealant at the top of the chimney chase (above the roof), push the entire chimney every section still connected up past the point of the top of the square support, screw the flue extension to the first length of chimney, lower the entire thing into the square support, replace the three screws which were screwed through the bottom of the square support, and then connect the stove pipe sections. He promised me that they would fix things for me and nothing would be damaged by the procedure.

The technicians at ICC told me that while it wasn't part of the typical installation there isn't anything at all unsafe or unreliable about having the three screws through the square support and through the extension (might even be a bit stronger that way) but they also told me that I absolutely MUST have the extension screwed together with the first length of chimney.

I will post a picture later although I admit I always wanted my first posted pictures here to be the "before-and-after" between our old wood fireplace and new wood stove darnnit! Anyways, what do you all think about the whole thing at this time? Thanks again I appreciate so sincerely all the advice here.

Ohh, to answer the other question, they typically instal "MetalFab" from time to time they do install the Excel there however it is a really rare thing for them. Apparently the way that MetalFab connects is through the support and into the extension and they accidentally used that technique here.
 
Sounds like you're lucky to have a great dealer/installer. Everyone makes mistakes, but at least they recognizing it and making it right.
And don't worry about the pics. They're all good.
 
jeff_t said:
Sounds like you're lucky to have a great dealer/installer. Everyone makes mistakes, but at least they recognizing it and making it right.
And don't worry about the pics. They're all good.

Yes I think so/hope so. I will report back to this thread and I think and hope it will be a perfectly positive report. I am also hoping and thinking I personally am "helping" as much as I can by being really reasonable about not insisting on replacement of the square support? According to the technicians at ICC those three screws won't hurt anything at all (other than the off look of it) and in a weird way the "hybrid" that we have created here might even be a bit stronger than the standard setup? I think all things equal though I'd rather have it installed the typical way without those three screws through the bottom of our square support but I also think that part of being open to the fact that everyone makes mistakes, is helping them as much as possible through those things. If there was anything related at all to the safety or reliability of the system then I'd insist on replacing whatever was required but unless I am misunderstanding things then I think the "fair" thing for everyone involved is what they were proposing. Again I welcome anyone's argument or advice otherwise. Thanks Again.

Ohh, and here is the picture that was requested. I am a bit bummed that this is the first picture posted. I hope everyone will look forward to the future "before-and-after" pictures I plan to post when everything is finally installed! Thanks.
 

Attachments

  • Screws Through Support Box.jpg
    Screws Through Support Box.jpg
    84.7 KB · Views: 764
I have installed hundreds and hundreds of feet of ICC EXCELL and the double wall ultrablack. The first section as stated prior has to be secured to the ex adapter.
The three screws up through the bottom will not make it any stronger as all of the weight of the pipe pushes down into the support box. Looks weird to me, but could be painted to match.
The storm collar which would be sealed with clear silicone, will help keep everything in place as well. I always put a few stainless self tapping screws through the flashing, just under the storm collar to help keep things from moving around up top as well.
Lining up the seams is just one of the fine touches that makes sense, and putting the seam out of sight line makes a great install fantastic.
Using the pre-drilled hole makes sure the pipe is staked square one on top of the other. It takes a little force to make them line up which makes the seal between pipe tight as well.
When it goes up square, levelling of the chimney become much easier.
HTH.
 
Install fire 1 said:
I have installed hundreds and hundreds of feet of ICC EXCELL and the double wall ultrablack. The first section as stated prior has to be secured to the ex adapter.
The three screws up through the bottom will not make it any stronger as all of the weight of the pipe pushes down into the support box. Looks weird to me, but could be painted to match.
The storm collar which would be sealed with clear silicone, will help keep everything in place as well. I always put a few stainless self tapping screws through the flashing, just under the storm collar to help keep things from moving around up top as well.
Lining up the seams is just one of the fine touches that makes sense, and putting the seam out of sight line makes a great install fantastic.
Using the pre-drilled hole makes sure the pipe is staked square one on top of the other. It takes a little force to make them line up which makes the seal between pipe tight as well.
When it goes up square, levelling of the chimney become much easier.
HTH.

Yes that helps tremendously and thanks. Other than looking a little weird can you think of anything wrong with leaving those three screws there? I think it is better than leaving three holes there? Or, is this one of those things where I really should insist on switching out the support too?

Also, am I understanding right that if they didn't align all the pre-punched holes the seal there will be loose? I am already surprised by how much movement there is laterally on the various sections (probably moves as much as 1/4 inch in any direction with minimal force). Is that okay too? Lastly how "level" should the stack be? It is "mostly level" or I should say "mostly plumb" with the bubble never being more than on the line as opposed to exactly and evenly being between the lines so we're talking another 1/4 inch probably one way or the other to make the bubble perfectly centered in all different directions. Is that okay too? Thanks.
 
I would have the box switched out and the ex adptor too. The holes go through a zero clearance support box and into your stainless chimny insulation and adaptor. Could the screws heat up too much? Possibly, maybe not? Would be nice to have it 100% as you have to see it. Not to mention the screws are not lined up in any particular fashion. Excell chimney is not cheap you want it to look right.

The 100% level wont affect performance. The sloppiness in the pipe is because the holes were not lined up and used. Where the holes are in the pipe at the top of each section, there is extra metal material as a support or gusset for the screw to go into for extra support. There is a chamfer inside the pipe at both ends, male and female that make a nice smooth complete finish to avoid creosote build up and provide a seal as well. This seal keeps water out of the insulaion if water gets into the chimney.

Hopefully you got a deluxe rain cap instead of icc';s regular rain cap. If you got the regular, ask for their screen kit to be put on and cut out four little squares every so often out of the screen to allow it to breathe better and reduce build up. This little trick keeps the animals out too.
 
Install fire 1 said:
I would have the box switched out and the ex adptor too. The holes go through a zero clearance support box and into your stainless chimny insulation and adaptor. Could the screws heat up too much? Possibly, maybe not? Would be nice to have it 100% as you have to see it. Not to mention the screws are not lined up in any particular fashion. Excell chimney is not cheap you want it to look right.

Yikes that changes things significantly but I really appreciate your advice. When I talked with the ICC technicians I got the idea that those three screws were no worry but now that I think through what you wrote I'm worried. Since I don't have the stovepipe there yet it really makes it much harder for me to visualize things. Does anyone happen to have a picture of that one area with the stove pipe just to help me to visualize things?

I'm also looking to get guidance on what's "the right thing" here. On the one hand forgive and forget, on the other hand, don't allow anything potentially unsafe or unreliable. If those screws could somehow melt or transmit too much heat through that area I'd hate to have attempted the forgive and forget approach. Again I apologize for the "Real Time Help" energy of this thread but I probably should place a call first thing tomorrow if its better to insist that both the support and the extension should be replaced.

Thanks for all the advice folks, please keep it coming in.
 
Not trying to scare you.
Your system will perform fine im sure, it just might not hold up as long as it should in the long run.
Install it the right way or not at all, has been my motto and has served me well for many years.
 
Install fire 1 said:
Not trying to scare you.
Your system will perform fine im sure, it just might not hold up as long as it should in the long run.
Install it the right way or not at all, has been my motto and has served me well for many years.

And I totally appreciate that, I'm just trying to reason this through but again I appreciate so much anyone's advice cause I can't know on my own what's the right thing here. Are you saying I should replace all the chimney sections too? I think that the installer twisted the lengths until two holes lined up not really remembering about the vertical seams going straight up. I'm not sure of that though. So it could be that the holes line up but that the seams don't line up, or, it could be that he punched new holes while he was screwing the sheet metal screws in. I did specifically ask the tech at ICC about that and he told me that it wouldn't matter much either which way. Truly the only thing they were worried about was not screwing the extension to the first length of chimney. So I sort of based my "decision" on that but now I'm really thinking that I should do another decision. Yikes Again! What exactly would you tell the installer to do to fix this all these things considered? Thanks so much, and, thanks so much again.
 
Sounds like your installer is a hack. If it was mine, I would have them replace whatever is required to make the installation correct. And judging by what they did with the pipe I would take a close look at what they did where you can't see from the ground... like in the attic. Nice people can screw you too. They go home and you're left with the mess forever.

I have an ICC chimney sitting in my screen porch not yet installed. I'll take some pictures for you if you like of how I understand this thing gets installed. I'll be installing it next week.

Mike
 
Mine is round. Your square support box gets nailed to the support framing. My round support uses a support ring.

I took a look at my parts and you are correct about your install issue. It is for these reasons I try and do as much myself as possible. It's just so hard to find good help these days.

Basically the (EX) black adapter simply slips into the end of the chimney section and you install three screws around it through the pre-punched slots.

You frame out your ceiling in accordance with the supplied chart or if you didn't have instructions you simply take the provided support ring that has the four tabs on it, and you can easily figure out how large the support framing opening needs to be. The support ring simply drops on top of the frame you made and you screw it down onto the square frame up in the attic.

The large black support itself (ERDS) simply installs from below. You slide it up into the ceiling hole and up through the round support ring you just just installed, making sure you have the minimum 3" protruding down below. You screw it in to the support collar up there.

Now all you do is lower the chimney section that has the EX adapter mounted to it, down into the round support box. That's it! No screws go into the chimney sections through the support. It just sits there. Trim ring goes on to cover the drywall hole.

I don't see where screws put in from below would even penetrate anything... it the chimney insulation there.

0002.jpg


0003.jpg


0004.jpg


0005.jpg

 

Attachments

  • canadian-instruction.jpg
    canadian-instruction.jpg
    81 KB · Views: 605
Thank you so much for posting those pics! It really helps to visualize the system. Now I need to go back to the thoughts on whether to replace the support as well as the extension or let them go with what they were proposing ( releasing the silicone seal at the top and then attaching the extension to the bottom and then replacing those three screws). If it is just a visual thing I think I can live with it but if it affects performance, reliability or safety I have to have them replace those parts. I am able to see everything else and it "looks" good to me even though I am not an expert but everything is fully seated and screwed together, they have the proper shields and such at the proper sections, etc. I don't know what is the normal "slop" in the pipe and so I'm probably putting thoughts into heads when I say its sloppy with about 1/4 inch deflection all directions but it all looks alright to me and I can see from top to bottom. Thanks for everyone's excellent advice.
 
Oh now I see what they did with the screws from below. After they dropped the chimney in they installed the screws through the support box in through the EX, vertically. That would do no harm but the screws are entirely unnecessary.
 
mhrischuk said:
Oh now I see what they did with the screws from below. After they dropped the chimney in they installed the screws through the support box in through the EX, vertically. That would do no harm but the screws are entirely unnecessary.

Whew, that really relieves me thanks! I also called again to ICC in Canada to make totally sure that I was understanding what they were telling me yesterday. I talked with their two top technicians who both told me the same thing ... the screws are not at all necessary, but are also not at all unsafe or unreliable. They even told me that if the screws don't line up with the same three holes in the extension (after it is lifted and lowered) even that isn't anything to agonize over. So I think that helps me make up my mind that "the right thing" here is to let the installer use the square support just to save them the extra expense which wouldn't be necessary by the sounds of it. I'm really hoping that indeed is the right thing here!?!

As far as the vertical seams of section of chimney lengths lining up I really think what had happened is the installer did use the pre-punched holes but just staggered the sections by 1/3 this way and then 1/3 that way. I don't think that he punched new holes by himself by screwing the screws through. I will ask him about that but either which way the technicians at ICC told me that wouldn't matter at all either? Get this ... as part of their overall answer to me they had two different technicians consult with one another but then they took the picture of our install to the president of the company and asked him for his advice!!! He's been with them for twenty years and although both the technicians totally knew what they thought and weren't waivering at all, they still have standard procedure to pass this through the tippity top too apparently! I was really impressed with that. They even then sent me a message in writing to summarize the advice they gave me which was essentially lift it, screw it, lower it, use it happily ever after!

Thanks again for all the advice folks, and again I really want to apologize about the RTH energy here! Thanks Again!
 
I'll be installing a chimney here in the next month or two. I wasn't sure I wanted to go to the extra expense of the Excel system, but after reading of your correspondence with ICC, I'm going to rethink that. Good luck, sounds like you're getting things worked out.
 
The way I see it the installer simply does not know how to install it. Secondly, no matter what brand chimney you install, it's common sense to stack the liners so the seams line up and face away from the most viewed position in my opinion.

Kinda like installing vinyl siding. You always overlap the seams in such a way that when looking at the house from the most viewed positions you don't see the overlap edges. This is what's called a first class installation not a jack job.

If it were my chimney they would be replacing the support and pulling the screws out in the chimney lengths and re-orienting them to line up properly. Most likely they just randomly stacked the chimney sections and lined up the holes. All they have to do is remove the screws and re-clock the section using the same holes.

Then I would consider paying the bill.
 
:) I have installed the same Exel chiminey about a month ago up here in Canada, the included manuals are good.


Some things come to mind: the assembled length of the chimney gets shorter than the actual advertised length of the sections added together.

I have the round Ceiling adapter; I found it was difficult to maintain the center side clearances, even installing everything plumb. The clearance to the adapter housing works out to less than 1", I wished they would have made the ceiling adapter a little larger in diameter for my own peace of mind but it is certified like that. IMHO I think the square adapter is better because it provides a little more space to combustibles.

I have also the cheaper rain cap; my PE super 27 works fine with this chimney. :)

My ceiling adapter is installed 6" down instead of 3" down; this was at the request of the local W.E.T.T. fire safety inspector; he said it was to do with radiated heat from the chimney to the ceiling, although the specs. say minimum 3". But what happens is that it drops the tube down and limits the insulation height in the attic at the tube, which doesn't seem to affect anything because this area needs some air flow around it?
 
You need to install a storm collar over the round support... inside the attic space. If you use double wall stove pipe you surely wouldn't need the 6" drop. I don't know what your local codes are but the product has passed all tests with the 3" drop and single wall stove pipe.
 
ICC offers support extensions for attic radiation sheilds and supports in case the insulation is deep. I add them most of the time anyways, because insulation will be added at one point or another. Storm collar has to be on top of the supports so insulation cant get in.

The tube has to drop 6" down minimum in canada because icc ultrablack doublewall pipe has a clearance of 6" to combustibles.

As others have stated, do it properly or dont do it. You payed good money for it, dont settle. The instructions for ICC are excellent and easy to follow. I install this chimney brand all year long and do it 110%. Works perfectly and finishes out very well.

Lots of hacks out there putting equipment in ass backwards.
 
Not sure I agree with the 6" drop. But than if Canada says 6" it doesn't matter what I think.

The reason is this. With my 8" product, the round support is almost 12" dia. the stove pipe outer dia is about 8-3/4. Because of that large step between the stove pipe and the support, you have a different radiation scenario. I just measured from the assembled stove pipe, on an angle, with the tape measure touching the corner of the support box. With the end of the tape touching the stove pipe, measuring to the 3" plane you get an easy 6". I think the manufacturers use this measurement and came up with the 3" drop that provides 6" radiation clearance.
 

Attachments

  • supportclearance.jpg
    supportclearance.jpg
    3.3 KB · Views: 331
Okay I promised to post an update. On Friday afternoon both the stove shop owner/operator and the installer that installed everything came to correct the chimney and to install the UltraBlack Stove Pipe too. They both totally understood what I wanted and also what went wrong (again the MetalFab product that they install 99% of the time screws through the support exactly as they attempted to this support).

Anyway first they removed the silicone sealant at the top of our chimney chase, then they loosened the three screws through the support, then they lifted the entire thing up, used two boards sitting on top of the support to hold the entire thing square while they screwed the extension to the chimney, then they lowered the entire thing back to the support, lined up the three holes exactly to where they were, rescrewed the three holes, aligned all the other lengths and resealed the silicone seal. The whole process took about an hour, I was with them the whole time and they were super careful to correct everything the way I wanted.

I decided to let them use the original square support for a few reasons starting with I "thought" that was the reasonable thing and the right thing, then also factoring in for the fact that with the alcove tiling all done, and with the way that I framed everything with extremely thick 16ga steel studs, and with the way that another firestop for the chase was connected, it would have been a big hassle to remove the support and replace the support (they offered to do whatever I wanted so it isn't any objection on their end). Mostly though this decision was driven by the fine folks at ICC telling me there was no worry whatsoever with having those three screws through the support and into the extension. If they had even hinted at that being troublesome I would have had to have replaced those two things. But they told me that it really is no worry whatsoever and that technically it makes a somewhat stronger although not necessary connection to those three components.

I want to again thank all the fine folks who helped me here. I "think" and "hope" I made the right decisions during this thing but as with anything like this there are all sorts of scenarios from one extreme to the other extreme. I think back to my thread here about the differences between different Class A Chimneys and mentioned after researching all sorts of stuff I wanted to ask the stove shop to change the original order of MetalFab to ICC. When I asked the stove shop if it was possible to change that on the order they immediately told me that was no problem and they allowed that without any restocking fees or return fees. I later found out from asking them about that what they really did was just wait on the next person to place an order and use the MetalFab so without telling me anything at all they sort of sat on inventory in the middle of July while I was changing our original order! That made me think "yikes" on my own actions. Again, they didn't tell me that and didn't offer any objection, they just changed things to make me as pleased as possible with what I got. So, again, they have totally worked with me and I have worked with them too as much as I "know" how to do. Again, I think and hope this was the right resolution overall? Thanks Again For All The Advice!!!!!!
 
Status
Not open for further replies.