Do I Need a Liner?

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jeffs

Member
Nov 21, 2005
52
Central-PA
We are getting a wood stove soon and will be putting it in our basement. Our house is 14 years old, and the previous owners had a wood stove in the same place. There is a brick hearth, good clearance, thimble– all ready to go.

We have a ZC fireplace upstairs (vents into a parallel flue) and the chimney sweep we use for that thought he saw an issue in the wood stove flue. So we had a video inspection done and the inspection crew found that the clay tiles are not all the same size. The tiles at the bottom are (I'm approximating here) 8 x 12, but about 16" above the thimble they reduce to 8" tiles. The chimney was very clean, and in good shape overall on the outside, clay tiles are not cracked anywhere on inside. The issue is where the two different size tiles meet. There is a small gap along the side of the smaller (top) tile where it sits on the lower (bigger) tile. I estimate this gap to be about 1/2" wide. The gap has masonry block on the back side of it, and brick visible at the top (closing it off). There is very little creosote in the gap (the brick behind it is very clean).

The outfit that did the inspection said this was a violation of an NFSA code, and we should have a liner installed. We have had 2 building contractors and a chimney mason look at it, who have said it's fine– there will be no draft through the gap (it doesn't lead anywhere) so no creosote will build up in it (there is none now). The chimney itself is substantial, the tiles are surrounded by block and brick, not old, and in otherwise good condition. It has two, parallel flues, one for the ZC fireplace, one for a wood-stove (flues do not join anywhere). Previous owners used it for 7 years with no issues. The inspection crew said other than this gap it would be fine to use as is.

Opinions?
 
I would reline it, why risk it. A new stove would draft better with liner as well, especially if it's an outside chimney.
 
I am not an expert but if the tiles go from one size to another, I would reline. Think about the cleaning situation, crappy! A freind has an insert with no liner.....MAJOR pain to clean! He has to remove his insert and do it. Because it is such a pain it gets done less often. His tiles are all the same size. Your's being different, you would have to have different brushes for different sections.

Liner is cleaner, safer and all around better!
 
Only a very short section (about 24") at bottom (easily accessible) has the large tile. Rest is all one size, and I won't be cleaning it. But point taken, thanks.

A little more info, this is a 2-story house, and chimney is on a donwslope side where basement shows about 3' above ground, so chimney is probably a good 25-30'' high.

No offense meant to anyone, but I am really looking for expert advice. People that know chimneys. Simply because I have already had "experts" give me both answers.

Liner cost quoted us is $2700, so this isn't pocket change. Having said that, if it's a real safety concern, the price is not an issue. I just don't want to burn money if it's not necessary.
 
The experts are the guys who wrote the NFPA codes. Either your installation will be to code or it will not. There are a lot of things you can get away with, but nobody in his right mind will give you permission to do so when the experts tell you no.

Ask your insurance company what they would like.
 
Not trying to "get away" with anything, just looking for objective advice.

If a liner is necessary we will go that route, we are not into taking a safety risk.

I just know that there are some outfits out there that invent problems to sell liners, and we have had conflicting opinions.

Insurance company says masonry is ok if it's sound.

Stove installation instructions say masonry is ok.
 
jeffs said:
Not trying to "get away" with anything, just looking for objective advice.

If a liner is necessary we will go that route, we are not into taking a safety risk.

I just know that there are some outfits out there that invent problems to sell liners, and we have had conflicting opinions.

Insurance company says masonry is ok if it's sound.

Stove installation instructions say masonry is ok.

OK, there is more involved here than can be answered. First, it appears that you have a large chimney running up the outside of your house. There is a column of air 25 to thirty feet tall that needs to be heated in order to maintain draft. You are thinking about putting an efficient wood burner which does not usually part with a lot of heat, and heating that chimney flue might be difficult as a result. Especially if there is a space in the flue which allows cool air to enter.

The previous owners did not burn the house down, but you cannot know what they burned or how often they burned, or what the typical results were unless you asked.

An insulated liner guarantees that none of those things is a concern. That is why you got a simple answer.
 
Anytime there is a gap, crack, missing mortar joint, hole, etc in clay tile there is a need for a new liner. Creosote has now entered a non combustible air space. The Clay liners can no longer properly contain all the products of combustion or a chimney fire for that matter. I would strongly recommend you get a liner installed. It will be safer and perform better as well.
 
Jeffs - nobody here has a vested interest in having you go out and spend $$ un-neccesarily. But we DO have a vast collective experience with heating our homes with wood -- safely. Todays modern wood stoves are MADE to be used with a liner. Safe and effective , you will be glad you did. You can buy the liner yourself, and install it - or if you are not comfortanle doing that - pay someone to do it. Either way -- the folks on here are the REAL experts - not salesman.
 
+1 amateur opinion on a liner being worth it for improved draft performance. Our old insert vented directly into a 12x12" masonry flue, and there was basically no draft when the atmosphere warmed up in the afternoon. . .stack effect in the house competing with the chimney didn't help either. The fire would go out, and we had to wait until after sundown to get it going again. Losing draft for part of the day makes 24x7 burning more of a PITA than it needs to be. The stove was changed too, but it would have more of a problem drafting with the oversized flue than the old stove did. Draft is great all day now. The liner was totally worth it for me, but I went the DIY route for ~ $500 after getting a couple of quotes similar to yours.
 
Thanks for all the replies folks.

Sounds like the vast consensus is to go for the liner.

Unfortunately I can not do this myself.
The 8x8 tiles (OD) do not allow enough room for an insulated liner and need to be busted out.
Inside dimension is too small.
 
98dingo said:
Anytime there is a gap, crack, missing mortar joint, hole, etc in clay tile there is a need for a new liner. Creosote has now entered a non combustible air space. The Clay liners can no longer properly contain all the products of combustion or a chimney fire for that matter. I would strongly recommend you get a liner installed. It will be safer and perform better as well.

There is your pro, and I am gonna back him 110% (as a non-pro, mind you :cheese: ). The gap created by the two sized tiles is enough right there to line this baby. Now, add in the rest of the benefits you will get from a liner and it becomes a no-brainer. Better heat retention from an insulated liner equals better draft, as well as properly sizing the stack. Easier cleaning. Safer. And lets face it, an insulated liner is just sexy as hell (O.K - maybe not sexy in sight, but sexy cuz its the right thing to do).
 
check the link I posted. This should work with out busting tiles!
 
jeffs said:
The 8x8 tiles (OD) do not allow enough room for an insulated liner and need to be busted out.
Inside dimension is too small.

Slow down. Can you get a rigid/flex liner down it? Pour in insulation does exist.

Oh, perfect time to talk about block of plates too. :coolsmirk:
 
PLAYS WITH FIRE said:
7-3/8" o.d. , well check that......You must bust!

Plenty of folks have managed to get a 6" liner down 8x8 tiles. (the Nap 1900 uses a 6" flue)
 
I believe the inside dimension is only 6-1/4". Checking on that. Maybe that's smaller than 8" O.D.?

What about the option of a non-insulated liner, and stuffing mineral wool around it at the top and bottom?
 
jeffs said:
What about the option of a non-insulated liner, and stuffing mineral wool around it at the top and bottom?

That is actually what I am talking about. A non-insulated liner with poured in insulation, block off plate at the bottom. But remember, I am not a pro. :coolsmirk: (I had to get that dig in. :lol: )
 
Jeffs,
For what it's worth, after getting a couple of $2k+ quotes on liner installs, I went the DIY rout got my liner from these guys: www.chimneylinerdepot.com

It worked out great. They sell the pour-in insulation and have a calculator for how much you need on their website for it. You are in central PA, I think these guys are around Scranton somewhere. Maybe you can stop in and look at the materials and see if you are comfortable doing it.
 
Since you may have a small flue to work with and have not yet bought the stove perhaps looking for a stove that would work with a five inch liner might be something to look at.
 
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