Are OAKs a "pipe dream"?

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DoubleClutch

Member
Jan 23, 2007
102
Virginia coast
I see a lot of discussion here about outside air kits. I had always considered them a good idea.

However, I remember talking about them with my Dad, who was a mechanical engineer who somewhat specialized in factory power/heat efficiency, and he disagreed.

His arguments AGAINST outside air kits were as follows:

1. If it's cold outside, bringing cold air into the firebox will decrease the amount of heat available to:
a. fully burn the fuel efficiently, and
b. put heat into the room/house, and
c. send up the stack to keep the stack temp high enough to keep the draft rolling and avoid creosote condensation on the stack.

If you don't use an outside air kit, and instead allow the warmer room air to provide combustion air:
1. there will not be as big a Δt between firebox air temperature and room air temperature, so there will be more heat available to:
a. burn the fuel efficiently,
b. put heat back into the room, and
c. send enough heat up the stack.

In a nutshell, Dad's assessment of it was, "There's no free lunch, and it's six of one and half-a-dozen of the other."

In other words, the outside air kit would not yield any more useful heat from the fire...either way, you would end up with the same thing and the same basic efficiency.

So, his argument against OAKs was, "What's the point of that expense? It doesn't get you anything."

I should add that this discussion was in relation to an old, not-particularly-tightly-sealed farmhouse.

I would be curious to hear the collective's thoughts on this.

Are OAKs a "pipe dream"?
 
Methinks your father was only considering the amount of heat from the stove. A better reason for the OAK is to reduce drafts in the house. In addition, some homes are so tight that they sometimes need to crack a window open to get enough air for the stove. Or when a clothes dryer runs or exhaust fans run the stove is starved for air. With an OAK, that is not a problem.

So no, the OAK does not help get more heat except that it gives that stove the needed air to burn correctly. It should not make any difference with creosote.

EDIT: With the old drafty house, an OAK is not needed but it would reduce the drafting a bit.
 
A couple other things old Dad failed to consider are the relatively small difference between outdoor and indoor temperatures, and the pre-heat channels built into all of today's stoves. Let's say it is 0 deg. outside, and 68 deg. inside. I think it is safe to say that that 68 deg. difference goes away while the air travels through pre-heat channels which are exposed to the 900+ deg. fire, long before that air enters the burn chamber.
 
Ya, as said above an OAK is used when a stove cannot breath properly because of overly tight construction. Interestingly, an increasing number of wood and pellet stoves are writing their manuals to mandate the installation of one.

A snorkel will not help a diver breath better than he could above water, but it's a lot better than what he could do under water.
 
When a stove burns it needs air from somewhere, and most likely it will be pulled in through various cracks and crevices around doors and windows, basement, dryer vent, you name it. The stove needs to replace this cold air being pulled in with the heat it produces, plus additional to warm the home. An OAK's air will never enter the living parts of the house, only the stove. I'm also a mech eng, but dont claim to be an expert on heating. I do however think i have a pretty good grasp on it. I suppose some people have setups where their stove cooks them out the house and the fresh air being pulled in is a bonus. Some people, like myself, have an undersized stove and/or leaky house and would like all cold air to stay outside. If i could install and OAK, i would. I think it makes sense for some, doesnt matter for others.
 
thechimneysweep said:
A couple other things old Dad failed to consider are the relatively small difference between outdoor and indoor temperatures, and the pre-heat channels built into all of today's stoves. Let's say it is 0 deg. outside, and 68 deg. inside. I think it is safe to say that that 68 deg. difference goes away while the air travels through pre-heat channels which are exposed to the 900+ deg. fire, long before that air enters the burn chamber.

Exactly what i was going to say. I will even go further and say that the 900* temp is nothing compared to the actual temp of the flame itself. It will not notice a 70* difference. Your house will stay warmer. Especially the areas farthest from the stove. Like a drafty bedroom. Will nowhave more warm air, because you are not pulling cold air in through the windows, electrical outlets, etc.
 
What if your stove has no "direct" connection for an OAK? Mine does not, so what do you do in this situation? My house was built in the late 70's and before I got the wood stove(insert) last year, I tried to find and seal every leak I could find. Now when I open the door from our kitchen to our garage, it will actually pull our bedroom door closed, if it is slightly ajar(not from full open of course). I saw something on another web site that looked something like a reverse dryer vent ( or similar to a barometric damper we have used on water heaters/boilers). The instructions said to install low on the wall near your stove. I hate the thought that if I had issues with it, I'd be stuck with a 4" hole in my exterior brick.
 
thechimneysweep said:
Let's say it is 0 deg. outside, and 68 deg. inside. I think it is safe to say that that 68 deg. difference goes away while the air travels through pre-heat channels which are exposed to the 900+ deg. fire, long before that air enters the burn chamber.

Yes, but the heat has to come from somewhere to heat the air from 0° to 68° ... in other words, the outside air will have more of a "chilling effect" on the stove than air from inside would have.

If you use warm indoor air for combustion air, you're going to drag air through the cracks in the walls, etc., which will then be heated from 0° to 68° before it goes into the stove. It won't "chill" the stove as much as air from outside at 0° ... but the stove will still need to heat that air from 0° to 68° in the room.

On the other hand ...

If you use outdoor air at 0° for combustion air, you'll drag less air from outside through the walls to feed the stove ... but the stove will also be chilled that Δt of 68°F x n pounds of air per hour...so although you'll drag less cold air into the room from outside, the stove will also be cooler, since much of its heat will be consumed in preheating the cold outside air.

Either way, an equivalent number of BTUs per hour will be consumed in preheating the combustion air, all other things being equal.

If you use air at 0°F then you still have to preheat it to 68°F before you're going to get an equivalent number of BTUs per hour out of the stove as you would get by using 68°F "indoor air" to feed the stove.

Whether the air goes directly into the stove at 0°F or 68°F is immaterial. The heat has to come from somewhere ... either the room (in which case the stove won't be chilled as much) or from the stove (in which case the stove won't warm the room as much).

So it's a wash.

Or that's my Dad's argument. And I now agree with it.
 
DexterDay said:
thechimneysweep said:
<edit> Your house will stay warmer. Especially the areas farthest from the stove. Like a drafty bedroom. Will nowhave more warm air, because you are not pulling cold air in through the windows, electrical outlets, etc.

That may very well be true, even if what my Dad argues is also true.

It would be interesting to gather some empirical data on the question.

(Whenever heating season gets going, I start wishing I had actually gone through with studying engineering...)
 
I still disagree. A flame burns over 1,000 (The flame ire) so if your stove top ran at 700* and you deduct 60* difference (which its not) then you have a 640* stove top. Thats cooking. So the diffedence between that or the 0 degree air coming into your 70* bedroom which is much worse.

Although the stove air must travel through a channel (being superheated) thats pretty long in terms of a 700* stove. Stick your hand in the stove and see how long you can keep it there. Now see how long you can keep your hand stuck out a window, when its 0* outside. Which can you hold longer? Which has a greater effect than the other? IMO
 
It's not so much temperatures that matter in this debate, so much as the BTUs per unit of time ... in other words, the amount of heat required to raise the temperature of a given weight of air a given number of degrees in a given amount of time.

But thanks for your insights...
 
I can only speak from experience, but FWIW, I'll share it. I've been thoroughly disagreed with here before for this stance, but want to put it out for consideration for those who might want to know.

I planned an OAK as a matter of course when I had my stove installed. The fellow who installed my chimney had been doing it for years, and said, "I'll put one in for you if you want, but I recommend you wait and see if you need it. I've seen them turn into nightmares of condensation and ice jams for people, and have removed several of them." This sounded like it was worth heeding--I could always add one, but it's harder to undo, so I went that route and have never regretted it.

Our climate is more extreme than that many of you face, and we can have weeks where it is -20F or colder, and -40 is not unusual. My stove is moderate sized (Hearthstone Heritage), as is my house (2000sf). It was built in mid-80's--post super-insulation, pre-HRV, and has had a problem with too little air turnover, too much humidity buildup.

Installing the stove not only added wonderful heat to the house, but also helped dry out the place to a comfortable degree and increased air turnover. I know the air intake was increased dramatically because I experienced the draw before the stove was installed, and while the chimney was standing open. It was amazing how much air was pulled in even without a fire to create a draft.

A lot of the fresh air is coming in via a doorway at the head of the stairs (I'm in a two story house on a hillside, so doors to the outside on both floors). The air is pulled down the stairs, but mixes with the heat reservoired above the staircase, so instead of an icy draft being pulled from the foot of the stairs across the floor to the stove, it's moderated, almost a neutral feel to it. I think that this airflow also helps keep circulation going upstairs, as the heat is very evenly distributed upstairs and down from the stove.

The upshot is that we're comfortable, we're not using excessive wood or running the stove at full-out temps to keep the place comfortable. If it works, as the saying goes, I see no reason to fix it. Talked to the stove store owner, who has been selling stoves in this town for 25 years or so, and he said that he thought that this system seemed to work well for people--pulling air in from around the house and refreshing the air that way. Yes, I know that this is heresy in the stove world, but I think there's a place for the contrarian point of view. It's at least worth considering before you cut that hole through the wall of your house.
 
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