Hearth Pad Worries with my P61A

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mikesj

Member
Feb 16, 2009
158
Western MD
Hi all,

I'm doing some remodeling in the room where my P61A is located, so I temporarily have my stove disconnected and moved in another room. I lifted up the hearth pad I bought from my dealer a few years ago and the vinyl flooring underneath is scorched. The pad itself is tile on plywood with a metal band and is probably an inch and a half thick. What should I do when I reinstall my stove- raise up my hearth pad an inch or two or put some washers or something under the stove to raise it up a little?

Any thoughts or suggestions are apprectiated.

Thanks!

Mike
 
Ouch!
Because the Harman design causes the base to get very warm I wonder if the dealer sold you the wrong type of pad.
Is the pad damaged at all? Would the dealer give you a refund if he/she saw the damage?
If stuck with your current pad, I would add cement board and maybe plywood under the pad.
Maybe some others will chime in as I have worked with cement board once. I made the pad myself.
The pad I made has a layer of tile then cement board then plywood. This is mounted on a 2"x4" frame which is on its' side.
So the base of the stove is 4" to 5" above the floor.

(See Below)

Hope that helps.
 

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I won't get anywhere with the dealer- I bought the stove from one Harman dealer and the pad from another a few years ago.

Nice looking pad you have there- I may try to do something like that myself, but I also might just modify what I have. I'm thinking that I could use some 2x4's as skids to raise it up a little and some trim to cover up the gap. Of course, that means that I'll have to raise my vent a couple of inches.

Any other thoughts?

Thanks!

Mike
 
With the vinyl floor being scorched, I wouldn't even try to use any part of the pad you had. If I understand you correctly, there is plywood as part of that pad and the scorching was beneath that. Wood which is heated that hot will be more and more combustible as time goes on.
I am betting you can make a really good pad and make sure you have the appropriate thickness of materials for your stove to sit on. As for the vent, you said you would have to raise it. That is just one disadvantage of going straight out. If you have to move it, consider going up and then out. That way, should you change stoves, pad, etc. you can easily made adjustments without having to move the exhaust.
Good luck with your remodel.
 
I didn't know a pellet stove would get that hot on the bottom.
Most aplications i've seen have tile on plywood only.
Even hearth pad over carpet.
This seems way to hot?
The installation manual for my englander states clarance to none comustuable materials above the floor?
None comb. flooring 6" around it?
But nothing about very high heat transfer thru the tile on the floor?
 
My new P38 is sitting on a tile floor that was a used as an entrance before we took out the door. Ceramic tile on plywood. Now I am wondering if that is enough. I did notice the base gets very hot. The manual doesn't say anything much about pad structure.
 
My Enviro M55 cast insert installation manual required me to build my hearth pad out of metal studs laying on their sides. Then cement board and then tile. I thought it was overkill, but after sliding it out for maintenance right after shutting it down, I found the tile pretty hot directly under the stove. Of course it is an insert, so the firebox is a lot closer to the hearth than a freestanding stove.
Flynfrfun
 
I have never seen any Pellet stove that gets the floor that hot.

Sounds like you need to increase the thickness of your hearths ceramic tile, stone or ?? materials and also maybe add some air space in there too to keep that heat off the combustible floor materials.

All of our stoves leave the floor COLD.

The quad has the ash pan about 8 inches or so directly below the fire pot.
The Large whitfield is similar with plenty of air space below the fire pot.

The Little Whitfield has the Blower in the base down under the pot.

What does the owners manual say in the way of insulation on the floor ???

Normally a layer of Ceramic tile 3/8 thick plus some cement board over plywood/OSB is plenty.

My raised hearth is 3/8 tile over OSB and thats it other than the layer of tile cement thats under the tile.


Is there a way to add some insulation in the base of the stove to help keep that heat from transfering to the hearth pad ??

Snowy
 
mikesj said:
Hi all,

I'm doing some remodeling in the room where my P61A is located, so I temporarily have my stove disconnected and moved in another room. I lifted up the hearth pad I bought from my dealer a few years ago and the vinyl flooring underneath is scorched. The pad itself is tile on plywood with a metal band and is probably an inch and a half thick. What should I do when I reinstall my stove- raise up my hearth pad an inch or two or put some washers or something under the stove to raise it up a little?

Any thoughts or suggestions are apprectiated.

Thanks!

Mike

I had my P61A installed about a month ago. I didn't look to confirm that the pad that the dealer sold me complied with the P61A owners manual. The manual says "Minimum permitted is 0.45R." The pad has a sticker on it that says "Type 1 ember protection" and "The R value of this ember protection product is R=0." This doesn't appear to comply with Harman's requirements. The hearth pad is just on top of carpet. Is this something I should call the dealer about?
 
This is but one reason all installs must be to the instructions in the manual.

Most manufactures have a minimum insulation value for the hearth their stoves are to sit upon.

Like most things dealing with fire it is best to exceed those recommendations and never have things less that those minimums.

It is possible that over time even at lower than combustion point temperatures for materials to slowly change their chemical make up, this can progress to the point that the combustion point temperature becomes the same as the temperature the material is being exposed to.
 
My manual says: "Place the stove on a noncombustible floor protector that extends 6 inches to the front, 6 inches to the sides and 1 inch to the rear of the stove. The minimum floor protector material is 24 gauge sheet metal."


I'm fairly certain that if I installed my stove according to the owners manual, I would have had a house fire.

I bought the stove from a Harman dealer about an hour from me because the local Harman dealer was sold out. I had the local dealer install it- he's the one who sold me the hearth pad. I am certain that the pad exceeds the specs listed in the owners manual.

How have there not been other people with this problem.

Personally, I'm not too worried about the appearance of the floor- I plan to have a pellet stove in that corner of my house for the foreseeable future. I am ticked at Harman for not having a better manual with safer instructions.
 
mikesj said:
My manual says: "Place the stove on a noncombustible floor protector that extends 6 inches to the front, 6 inches to the sides and 1 inch to the rear of the stove. The minimum floor protector material is 24 gauge sheet metal."


I'm fairly certain that if I installed my stove according to the owners manual, I would have had a house fire.

I bought the stove from a Harman dealer about an hour from me because the local Harman dealer was sold out. I had the local dealer install it- he's the one who sold me the hearth pad. I am certain that the pad exceeds the specs listed in the owners manual.

How have there not been other people with this problem.

Personally, I'm not too worried about the appearance of the floor- I plan to have a pellet stove in that corner of my house for the foreseeable future. I am ticked at Harman for not having a better manual with safer instructions.

That's funny the manual I just consulted says nothing about the material other than that it be fireproof and as of the sizes you mentioned. But maybe I missed it.
 
SmokeyTheBear said:
It is possible that over time even at lower than combustion point temperatures for materials to slowly change their chemical make up, this can progress to the point that the combustion point temperature becomes the same as the temperature the material is being exposed to.

Could you kindly expand on this?
 
I,m about to set my new 49-TRCPM in the next week.
Pad is only tile over OSB. Should i put a layer of cemet board or cement blocks?
Need to establish the hieght before i cut the hole in wall for exhaust.
Reading the post which started this, I need to ask is the vinyl floor just discolored?
Vinly will react with differant materials and discolor.
Did you take a picture?
I've talked to others with pellet stoves and there floors are cold?
 
bd911 said:
SmokeyTheBear said:
It is possible that over time even at lower than combustion point temperatures for materials to slowly change their chemical make up, this can progress to the point that the combustion point temperature becomes the same as the temperature the material is being exposed to.

Could you kindly expand on this?

I'll let others expand on it here is a link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyrolysis
 
save$ said:
With the vinyl floor being scorched, I wouldn't even try to use any part of the pad you had. If I understand you correctly, there is plywood as part of that pad and the scorching was beneath that. Wood which is heated that hot will be more and more combustible as time goes on.
.
a little back up for this from: http://www.doctorfire.com/low_temp_wood1.pdf "Thus, in the present case, it is possible to reliably conclude that any heating device of 77ºC or
higher, if applied to a wood surface for a protracted period of time, presents a documented ignition hazard." 77 C = 171 F
 
To answer a previous question, the vinyl, which is a light color, is definitely scorched- it is a brownish orange just beneath where my stove sat on the pad.

I received the following reply from Harman:


Thank you for your inquiry. Since Harman does not manufacture, or offer any
tile hearth pads, we recommend you bring your concerns to the attention of
your Harman dealer where you purchased the hearth pad and stove from. It is
critical that the hearth pad used must be capable of providing the necessary
floor protection to meet all federal and local codes.


The hearth pad I currently have is tile on top of particle board- I'm guessing it has cement board sandwiched between the tiles and the particle board. The particle board doesn't seem to be damaged/scorched.

I will either build or buy a new pad, depending on how fast my remodeling project goes. I'm just annoyed because this seems like a fairly critical safety issue that was not adequately addressed in my owners manual.

Thanks for the feedback and support!

Mike
 
nhredbird said:
I didn't know a pellet stove would get that hot on the bottom.
The Harmans have the combustion fan loacted behind the ash pan. Because of this, the whole botton
of the stove gets almost as hot as the top. Can't keep my feet resting against the base.
It actually gives off radiant heat!
 
lessoil said:
nhredbird said:
I didn't know a pellet stove would get that hot on the bottom.
The Harmans have the combustion fan loacted behind the ash pan. Because of this, the whole botton
of the stove gets almost as hot as the top. Can't keep my feet resting against the base.
It actually gives off radiant heat!

Should I contact the dealer then because it doesn't appear that they sold me a pad that complies with the Harman manual. See my previous post on this thread for more information.
 
mepellet said:
lessoil said:
nhredbird said:
I didn't know a pellet stove would get that hot on the bottom.
The Harmans have the combustion fan loacted behind the ash pan. Because of this, the whole botton
of the stove gets almost as hot as the top. Can't keep my feet resting against the base.
It actually gives off radiant heat!

Should I contact the dealer then because it doesn't appear that they sold me a pad that complies with the Harman manual. See my previous post on this thread for more information.

I would call them. Are the specs for the pad in the book? I will look at our owner's manual.
 
lessoil said:
mepellet said:
lessoil said:
nhredbird said:
I didn't know a pellet stove would get that hot on the bottom.
The Harmans have the combustion fan loacted behind the ash pan. Because of this, the whole botton
of the stove gets almost as hot as the top. Can't keep my feet resting against the base.
It actually gives off radiant heat!

Should I contact the dealer then because it doesn't appear that they sold me a pad that complies with the Harman manual. See my previous post on this thread for more information.

I would call them. Are the specs for the pad in the book? I will look at our owner's manual.

The stove manual says “Minimum permitted is 0.45R.†The pad has a sticker on it that says “Type 1 ember protection†and “The R value of this ember protection product is R=0.†I don't understand the statement that says that the pad is R=0. It has to have some R value right?
 
Our book and plate on stove only states the following:
Noncombustible floor or UL approved floor protector which extends 6" from front/sides and 1" from back
I made the pad the way I did so the exhaust pipe would be above the HW baseboard.
So I guess I exceeded the minimum requirements by mistake.

Where in the book did you find the 0.45R rating??
 
lessoil said:
Our book and plate on stove only states the following:
Noncombustible floor or UL approved floor protector which extends 6" from front/sides and 1" from back
I made the pad the way I did so the exhaust pipe would be above the HW baseboard.
So I guess I exceeded the minimum requirements by mistake.

Where in the book did you find the 0.45R rating??

Later in that same paragraph on page 7.

Installing
Place the stove on a noncombustible floor or on a floor
protector that extends a minimum of 6 inches to the front,
(measured from the glass) 6 inches to the sides and 1 inch
to the rear of the hopper. It is also recommended that floor
protection be installed under any horizontal venting and extending
2 inches beyond the vent measurement. Material used
for floor protection must be a minimum 3/8" of material rated
at 0.84k per inch. Another method for calculating floor protection
is in R-value. Minimum permitted is 0.45 R. Example: 1"
thickness of a material is rated at 0.52 R, which would meet
the requirement.
 
mepellet said:
lessoil said:
Our book and plate on stove only states the following:
Noncombustible floor or UL approved floor protector which extends 6" from front/sides and 1" from back
I made the pad the way I did so the exhaust pipe would be above the HW baseboard.
So I guess I exceeded the minimum requirements by mistake.

Where in the book did you find the 0.45R rating??

Later in that same paragraph on page 7.

Installing
Place the stove on a noncombustible floor or on a floor
protector that extends a minimum of 6 inches to the front,
(measured from the glass) 6 inches to the sides and 1 inch
to the rear of the hopper. It is also recommended that floor
protection be installed under any horizontal venting and extending
2 inches beyond the vent measurement. Material used
for floor protection must be a minimum 3/8" of material rated
at 0.84k per inch. Another method for calculating floor protection
is in R-value. Minimum permitted is 0.45 R. Example: 1"
thickness of a material is rated at 0.52 R, which would meet
the requirement.

Harman has updated the manual. We ordered our stove May 2008.
The installation section in my book is on page 5 and does not have the following:

It is also recommended that floor
protection be installed under any horizontal venting and extending
2 inches beyond the vent measurement. Material used
for floor protection must be a minimum 3/8" of material rated
at 0.84k per inch. Another method for calculating floor protection
is in R-value. Minimum permitted is 0.45 R. Example: 1"
thickness of a material is rated at 0.52 R, which would meet
the requirement
 
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